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New to the forum, my newest purchase

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Offline lou845

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New to the forum, my newest purchase
« on: June 25, 2016, 12:02:44 PM »
How's it going guys, I've been browsing through here for quite some time reading up about samurais and common mods. I've always liked them for there size and the fact that they're not to common around here. So recently I decided to purchase one.  and although I'm a mechanic I'm somewhat lost with this thing (don't judge) I've always had lowered cars, turbo cars, swaps etc but this is my first lifted vehicle. And I have to say I love it ! Here's a list of what's done ad well as some pics. If anyone can point me in a direction as to what should be done in addition it'd be appreciated. It starts and runs great, but won't go into Second gear unless I'm stopped, and the steering is SUPER sloppy.

Any help and guidance would be appreciated

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Offline motofabio

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New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2016, 04:46:17 PM »
Welcome! I feel weird telling a mechanic what might be wrong with their car.

For shifting, it could be as simple as a cable adjustment. Can you shift from 2 to 3 while it's running? More importantly, how is the shift from 3 to 4?

It could also need a rebuild.

I was able to tighten up my super sloppy steering by tightening up the screw on the steering box. Don't go too far, because it will get hard to turn the wheel.

It could also need a bunch of new fittings.

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Online fordem

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 05:53:46 PM »
I would say try to find someone close to you who is familiar with either Samurais or lifted leaf sprung vehicles to assist you - at a glance I can see the SPOA mentioned in the ad., along with extended shackles, what looks like very tired springs, the steering tie-rod running under the springs, and the drag-link sitting at a fairly steep angle.

How familiar are you with leaf sprung vehicles

I don't really want to get into a long discussion on how suspension works, but, some background is necessary - leaf springs not only support the vehicle, but also locate the axle not just front to back, but also left to right, when you lift the vehicle with longer shackles, you create a situation where when you try to turn the wheels, the vehicle moves sideways over the axle rather than the wheels turning - this translates (or at least contributes) into that sloppy feeling.  Another side effect of extended shackles is that they reduce the caster angle which affects the "self centering" of the steering, and that also contributes to the lack of feeling.

SPOA (SPring Over Axle) conversions, whilst conceptually simple - you're just moving the spring from under to over the axle - are in reality, quite difficult to get right - one of the problems, if nothing is done to correct it (and nothing has been done on your car) is that the steering drag link ends up at a pronounced angle, and as the suspension cycles up/down with the movement of the vehicle, the angle of the tie-rod forces the steering to move sideways (a phenomenon described as "bump steer", and that again, contributes to your steering issues.

There are a whole host of other potential problems that can result from suspension modifications, and various approaches to deal with them, which is why I made the first suggestion - I think the best approach is to get someone to lay eyes on the vehicle and guide you appropriately.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2016, 11:54:08 PM »
I know it's strange asking for insight when I turn wrenches all day lol. But this lifted business is all new to me. Today I had the chance to put it on the lift, yes the springs are very exhausted, possible to place bigger springs ? Like jeep springs I believe I read a whike ago, something with more leaf instead of these 2 inch 4 pack lol. Also had the chance to adjust the clutch pedal and cable according to factory manual and specs, still won't shift into Second at a roll. 3-4 is fine. So assuming trans is needed to be torn down soon. Alignment was off by multiple degrees,  and caster was tossed as well. Assuming I can shim some how for caster/camber ? While trying to do an alignment the draglink? Going to pitman arm was seized. So wasn't able to make any adjustments. I've heard of z links and drop pitman arms, to me the pitman arm seems like a better option, I'm trying to find local enthusiasts that I can have check the truck out and give me more info on it but there's not much around unfortunately.   

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Online fordem

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2016, 01:43:41 PM »
It might be an idea to tell us where you are, at least the general area, some one of the forum members might be nearby.

From a point of view of insight, for me the important thing is to recognize your limitations, none of us is an expert on every thing (although I do know a few people who would swear they are), we each have our area of expertise, and should not be afraid to ask for guidance in other areas.  At the very least we're going to get a couple of suggestions that might not have crossed our minds.

The transmission issue sounds like a worn synchro on second gear, so yes, a tear down might be eminent, the alternative is to learn to "double de-clutch" and rev-match.

Regarding shimming to correct for caster - the problem there is that as you go one way to correct caster, you're going the wrong way on pinion angle, and potential vibration issues, to get both correct requires cutting & re-welding the axles, which I would consider a specialist task - if there is a camber issue, I would suspect the axle is probably bent.

Z-links do nothing to correct bump steer, all they do is reduce the opportunity of the drag link fouling the spring - a drop pitman arm is half the solution, the other half is some form of "hi-steer" kit, which raises the other end of the drag link - the ideal is for the drag link to be parallel to the surface the vehicle is sitting on.

Hi-steer kits fall into two types - full & half high - the half just adds a new arm for the drag link on one side, the full adds two arms and moves the tie-rod as well - depending on what kits you can find, the half might be better, assuming that is, that you have no problem with the tie-rod fouling the springs - if you're going with a full high kit make sure the new arms keep the ackerman geometry correct.

With coil sprung vehicles the lateral location of the axle is usually via a panhard rod or track bar, and a workable compromise is to have the track bar and the drag link, parallel & equal length - this doesn't eliminate the sideways movement, but because it forces the body & the steering to move sideways by the same amount as the suspension cycles it eliminate the effect of sideways movement on the steering, which is what the bump steer really is - you can add a panhard rod to a leaf sprung vehicle if you so choose.

Any play, any where in the steering or front suspension contributes to the sloppy feeling - worn leaf spring bushes, those long shackles will add to it, loose kingpin bearings, plus of course the actual steering ends and/or steering box - eliminating it becomes a process of checking them all one by one.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2016, 02:52:02 PM »
I really appreciate the responses. I'm located in Poughkeepsie Ny. Just 2 hours north of the city. If anyone on here is local to me that'd be great. I've found some trans rebuild kits online for a couple hundred that I'm considering grabbing, since buying a used trans doesn't make me comfortable because you simply never know what abuse it's been through. Plus there's none local to me. These trans seem fairly simple to Rip apart and rebuild. I'll search here for any diy or break downs on it for more instructions. I'm gonna be ordering a drop pitman this week, and was hesitant on the pan hard until you mentioned it which makes me feel like I should order that as well. I'm gonna post pics of the suspension going on, so you guys have an idea of what's there that may not be posted in the above picture.

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Online fordem

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2016, 06:20:54 PM »
The factory manuals should be available for download over at Ack's FAQ, and I'm with you on the rebuild vs. used approach.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2016, 07:59:51 PM »
I downloaded the manual at my job the other night, but wasn't able to print all 482 (literal) pages. So ill be printing what I need as I go

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2016, 10:13:17 AM »


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Online fordem

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2016, 11:29:28 AM »
That's quite an unusual setup - there appear to be two tie rods one below and one above the springs - I can't quite see where the drag link goes because it's behind the shackle, it's possibly some sort of cross over system.

I'm also not certain how I feel about that SPOA set up - the axle seems to be "sandwiched" in between two blocks, the shackles, whilst "beefy" appear to be bent, as if the cross brace is wider than the spring, or the mount - maybe the "perspective" from which the picture was taken.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2016, 11:40:32 AM »
I'll try to take a few better pics. My camera on my phone is broken so I have to use the front facing camera which makes it difficult. One of the papers he gave me is from rocky road and it's a ott steering system. The drag link goes to the pitman arm as well as the stabilizer. I'll go shoot a few better pics.

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2016, 11:42:29 AM »


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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2016, 11:44:50 AM »


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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2016, 11:48:18 AM »
And some better pics of it in general

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Offline lou845

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Re: New to the forum, my newest purchase
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2016, 12:13:15 PM »
I don't know why some pics uploaded upside down. Sorry

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