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Off Road suspension...Now i get it!

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Offline zaggy

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Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« on: July 21, 2005, 09:44:48 AM »
I guess I'm a little slow...

     I'm not an extreme off roader by any stretch and rock crawlin probly beyond my comfort zone. Coming from a Road Race/Oval Track background I've had a hard time understanding some of the mods that the serious guys do.
     But after reading all the posts I could (thanks guys) I finally get it. In racing we do everything possible to eliminate flex and work make the suspension keep the wheels in contact with the track, control body roll and dampen the road inputs. Racers work to generate more "G" loads in the corners to increase speed in/through/out the corners to drop lap times. Dropping the C of G and trying to ELIMINATE any chassis FLEX allows us to more accurately control the suspension, making faster lap times.

     With 25+ years of that mind set I was having a hard time understanding the 4X4 suspension mods, the raising made sense but the SAS and flex mods had me mistified. But now I understand that speed isn't an issue here, G forces irrelavent, with low speed and low "G" loading suspension control becomes mute........It's all about wheel travel!!!!!

     For God's sake correct me if I'm wrong but the way I now see it.....
- Ground clearance is "King"
- Suspension travel is the "Crown Prince" to get max traction at all corners all the time.
- Making the chassis flex helps the wheel travel and the angle the tire hits the tarmac doesn't
  matter.

Do I get it now?

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline ebewley

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 10:05:37 AM »
I guess I'm a little slow...

   
     For God's sake correct me if I'm wrong but the way I now see it.....
- Ground clearance is "King"
- Suspension travel is the "Crown Prince" to get max traction at all corners all the time.
- Making the chassis flex helps the wheel travel and the angle the tire hits the tarmac doesn't
  matter.

Do I get it now?

Zag

Personally, I think you've headed down the right road and hit step one, the place where most people stop. Clearance may be king but is is all realative and maybe should be measured as a percentage of wheelbase. A smaller vehicle definitely doesn't need as large of a tire as a big rig for the same amount of effective ground clearance, breakover angles, approach and departure angles.

For me, just opinions here right?, flex is far from a crown prince and not actually that important. Chassis regidity, suspension control, and overall stability are the buzz words that describe what I feel is important and what to build for. Many may disagree but if you look at vehicles that actually make the hard obsticles when you're out wheeling and study the current thinking / building of the competition buggies this would help support my theories. :)

Of course, I'm open to have my mind changed.  ;)

FWIW -Eric
Eric L. Bewley                               
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Offline zaggy

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 10:11:14 AM »
Hey Eric

     I understand where you are going...and I'll always be a believer in stiff chassis and make the suspension work (cause I'm stubborn and been doin it that way tooooo long). But with the compromise of a production vehicle don't my observations get the just of it?
     Don't get me wrong, if I was going to do something like project "Rock Star" I would approach it differently...but I think I get the SAS thing now and see why so many guys go in that direction....or am I still not quite getting it?

     Sorry if this is pretty basic stuff, but I like to undestand things before I open my mouth and insert my foot.

Zag
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:13:09 AM by zaggy »
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline ebewley

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 10:23:21 AM »
Hey Eric

     I understand where you are going...and I'll always be a believer in stiff chassis and make the suspension work (cause I'm stubborn and been doin it that way tooooo long). But with the compromise of a production vehicle don't my observations get the just of it?
     Don't get me wrong, if I was going to do something like project "Rock Star" I would approach it differently...but I think I get the SAS thing now and see why so many guys go in that direction....or am I still not quite getting it?

     Sorry if this is pretty basic stuff, but I like to undestand things before I open my mouth and insert my foot.

Zag

No, I see where your headed and I think 95% would agree with your above statements. I'm just weird! :) Seriously, even Solid axle front vehicle with a controlled and predictable front ends do better than the super twisty floppy sloppy stuff ...and wanted to point out that there is more than one way to skin a cat. [I am in no way advocating the skinning of cats... they have more flavor with the skin on! :) ]

-Eric
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:30:58 AM by ebewley »
Eric L. Bewley                               
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Offline zaggy

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 10:32:33 AM »
I don't think yer weird....

     If I had the time, money and inclination I would do an extremely stiff chassis, All independent suspension with parallel links, extremely long control arms and very tall tires (36-38").
     That way you'd have a system with awe inspiring wheel travel, great ground clearance and fantastic stabiltiy due to a well controlled suspension....but I can't see how I could fit that in a kick.

     There is probly someone out there figuring it out right now though.

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Cwkick

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 10:37:41 AM »
You need to throw in there, driving skill. 

You can do many things with a lightly modified rig if you have a little skill.

You can also go nowhere with a highly modified rig and a lame driver.

Just thought I'd throw that out.   ;)


Cwkick

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 10:40:34 AM »
Thanks CwKick

     I agree in a big way, but I'm just trying to understand the technology. I like to understand how stuff works and why, then try to find a better/cheaper way to do it.

Zag
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline Digger

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 10:42:06 AM »
     For God's sake correct me if I'm wrong but the way I now see it.....
- Ground clearance is "King"
- Suspension travel is the "Crown Prince" to get max traction at all corners all the time.
- Making the chassis flex helps the wheel travel and the angle the tire hits the tarmac doesn't
  matter.

Do I get it now?

Zag

Pretty much. Ground clearance comes from larger tires. Larger tires roll over larger obstacles easier than smaller tires. Especially with open diffs, you need to keep as many tires in contact with the ground as possible to keep going, so flexibility is important. For me, I'm crawling through the woods and rocks in first gear/lowrange so I am willing to live with increases in chassis sway and body roll in exchange for better traction in the woods.
Had a cool sig pic till I changed the text... sigh...
90 Tracker: "Silver", 2" BL, 1-1/2" Coil Spacers, Strut mount flip, Calmini Header, Winch, 31" Swamper radials, Sold.
98 Suzuki X-90: Calmini 2" Sus, 1-1/4" whl spcrs, 2" Exhaust, Cobra Safari Bar, Neon, Sold.
96 Suzuki X-90: Mostly stock daily driver(for now)

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 10:45:41 AM »
Nice to know I'm just thick............Not stupid!

     Hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I think I understand the why's and what's now.

Thanks guys I appreciate the education.

Zag

By the way I think engines are easier.....
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:47:35 AM by zaggy »
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline echojeff

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 11:09:41 AM »
Thanks CwKick

     I agree in a big way, but I'm just trying to understand the technology. I like to understand how stuff works and why, then try to find a better/cheaper way to do it.

Zag
You my friend have the spirit of whats been said of these zuks ... "Doing more with less then more".
95 Kick 4dr JLX.

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Offline SnoFalls

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 11:14:05 AM »
Like eric said approach/departure/breakover angles are what keep you outta trouble. Those increase with tire size increase and lift.

Flex is important, but only cuz it keeps the 4 wheels on the ground. When you're locked on an axle and you pick a tire, you still get 3 wheel drive. A good flexy wheeler can go pretty far with open diffs (since it can keep all 4 on the ground).

When off road, IMO traction is king. Tire choice for the terrain, keeping wheels down, lockers, all get you that. If you're high centered, you loose traction, if you're open diff and pik a tire you loose an axles worth of traction, tires load up with mud, you lose traction ...

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it.

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Offline SnoFalls

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 11:18:54 AM »
but I think I get the SAS thing now and see why so many guys go in that direction....or am I still not quite getting it?

The biggest reasons for SAS are

1) Makes lifting easier. There is only so far you can go with stock IFS. I expect some clever engineering could get a sizzor arm like IFS, but SAS is just easier.
2) Forced articulation. When you lift a tire on a solid axel, the opposite tire is forced to drop (the amount of forced articulation is controlled by the spring location). With IFS this is not so (hence the "independence").
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it.

Buy-it, Build-it, Beat-it, Part-it

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Offline zaggy

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 11:25:04 AM »
Ok another 4WD newbie question.........


What the heck is SPOA?  I've figured just about everything else out but that one's got me.

Spring Perch Over Axle?

Zag
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 11:32:55 AM by zaggy »
92 Sidekick 4dr, Suzuki Powered Airplane

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Offline chet

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 11:29:56 AM »
also with a solid axle as the axle articulates you don't lose ground clearance like an IFS. As an IFS system compresses the front diff(usually the lowest spot on a vehicle) gets closer to the ground. Not so with solid axle.

My previous vehicle was a toyota with coils springs all around and tons of flex and I could go alot of places in 2WD that a less flexy vehicle could go in 4wd. It also did wonders for keeping the cab level when going through cross ditches and I could drive over a 12'=18" rock and the body would hardly move. It also sucked on the hiway and looked like it was going to fall over when you went around a corner, hence the reason I sold it!  :P
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Offline Cwkick

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Re: Off Road suspension...Now i get it!
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 12:07:02 PM »
Ok another 4WD newbie question.........


What the heck is SPOA?  I've figured just about everything else out but that one's got me.

Spring Perch Over Axle?

Zag

SPring Over Axle.

Stock way is SPring Under Axle.

Yes you have it!   ;D

Cwkick