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Wheel adapters for handling

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Wheel adapters for handling
« on: March 20, 2018, 07:31:43 AM »
Has anyone tried 1” spacers/adapters on a second gen tracker?  Mine is a little tippy in handling and my thought was a little extra track might fix that. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 06:41:39 AM »
First - define "tippy in handling"
Second - has the vehicle been modified in any way?
Third - what condition is the suspension in?

I'm running a second gen Grand Vitara and "tippy" is the last adjective I would use to describe the handling - as far as I know the GV has pretty much the same suspension as the Tracker, the wheels are different and the GV may have more offset so I'm not certain if the track is identical.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 08:16:03 AM »
Yes my suspension is lifted 2” with spacers, rear shocks are new, struts are not, tires are oversized and wheels are stock.  By tippy I mean a little more body roll than I like.  The track feels narrow, and it is.  I did reinstall the sway bar which helped,  and the articulation in the car is really good.  So it feels like a trail rig on the street.  It’s not awful but my thought was a little wider stance might help it feel planted
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 09:52:40 AM »
If the issue is body roll, which it may well be seeing that it has been lifted AND that re-installing the sway bar (which, incidentally, is also known as an "anti roll bar" in some countries) helped to some extent, I don't see widening the track as likely to have a significant effect.

Another possible cause, depending on what tires you're running, is increased "flex" or "squirm" caused by the increase in sidewall height when you switched to the oversized tires - again - I don't see widening the track as having a significant impact, but, I am curious as to whether widening the track, which would increase the twisting forces "at the tire" wouldn't cause it to flex more - try bumping the tire pressures up and see what happens.

I suspect the solution to your issue is going to be stiffer springs - my GV is sitting on OME springs, shocks & struts, and also has oversized tires - there was no noticeable change in "tippy-ness" when the suspension was installed, but the effects of the increased sidewall height was immediately noticeable (the tires were installed several months after the OME suspension was fitted), and that is why I used the term "squirm" to describe it - the GV on 70 series tires no longer corners with the precision that it did on 60 series tires.

Despite the fact that the center of gravity has been raised, the body roll is actually reduced because of the stiffer springs, the ride is firmer because the shocks are matched to the springs, and the handling is just shy of a good sport suspension - good enough that I can actually "pressure" some fairly pricey sports cars along the road to our airport - two tons of SUV is not supposed to be able to hang with a turbocharged Subaru Impreza WRX, and when you do it, the Subie driver is not at all happy.-
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Offline beagle..t

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 06:40:34 PM »
as you have coil spacers did you put in a relocation bracket for the rear sway bar? how are the sway bar end links worn out ? I have the same problem as body roll only happens once and a while at high speed 100-120 km per hr. I've changed front struts rear shocks and sway bar end links and it settled it abit but it has not gone totally away the next thing that I'm looking into is worn rear track bar bushings. I have a 2" body lift and 2" coil spacers and running 31x10.5x15 I don't recall the problem when I was running 30x9.5x15 so I'm thinking that my problem and your problem could be one of this problems.
new rig aka "the mule" 2002 tracker
V6 swap auto  ,2 dr ,2" BL,2" jeffs kit 512 gears warn hubs and 30/9.5/15 BFG AT

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 07:34:08 PM »
Great thoughts here guys thank you.  Yes the tires are taller, they are Goodyear wrangler AT in 235/75-15 flavor.  I like them a lot, they feel like a car tyre and have great traction but they are lightly built compared to truck tires I’ve run on other Suzuki’s before.  And yes sorry to confuse it is body roll I’m describing but it’s not a sort of variable g force dependent roll I’ve felt before it’s like extremely tippy initially, but once it takes a “set” in the corner it’s not rolling more that much. 

Could be tire.  Probably spring, but I’d rather not beef up the springs because I like how it rides on and off the road, but you’re right actually it is pretty softly sprung.  Well shoot I’m gonna be pissed if the lift kit I installed needs replaced by springs!  I know spacer lifts aren’t the best way but my understanding was they actually stiffen the ride and tighten it up on the street compared to a full spring lift. 

Rear sway bar relocation bracket?  No I didn’t and I wasn’t even aware it had a rear sway bar lol.  Maybe that’s a place to start.  I did put spacers in front sway bar, but man it didn’t look right when it went back on and it seemed very unhappy.  These are mounted under the arms and didn’t seem to take to the new lift as well as an over mounted sway bar would im guessing.   But I also drove it without the sway bar and it was still too mush. 

By comparison my little x-90 with similar suspension design was very planted feeling with the baby super swampers on it. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 07:35:48 PM »
My gf washed piglet yesterday for me. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Offline beagle..t

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 03:15:51 PM »
bits4vits sells them and I'm sure there are other people that do its good to have as it re-aligns the rear end so that it doesn't track 
new rig aka "the mule" 2002 tracker
V6 swap auto  ,2 dr ,2" BL,2" jeffs kit 512 gears warn hubs and 30/9.5/15 BFG AT

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 05:22:49 PM »
Well it’s called a tracker for a reason!  So you mean they didn’t come with one but they fit them as aftermarket?  That seems counter intuitive as we usually don’t want them for a wheeling rig but heck, why not.  The car has a lot of articulation really for a semi stock suspension. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 06:32:38 PM »
First - there is no rear sway bar on these vehicles, and therefore no rear sway bar relocation bracket - there is no provision to take a rear sway bar, and to the best of my knowledge, bits4vits does not offer one, and neither does anyone else - if you know different, feel free to provide a link to the product.

What I believe beagle..t is calling a rear sway bar relocation bracket is most likely the panhard rod (also known as the track bar) relocation bracket, and what that does is reduce the sideways motion of the body relative to the axle (or the axle relative to the body) as the suspension cycles.  Assuming that this is the case, the presence of absence of this bracket has ZERO impact on "tracking" and/or body roll - the sideways movement of the rear axle produces a sensation similar to bumpsteer, in that the vehicle changes direction slightly as the rear suspension moves up & down.

I know spacer lifts aren’t the best way but my understanding was they actually stiffen the ride and tighten it up on the street compared to a full spring lift.

There's no way a suspension spacer lift can "stiffen" the ride - it's nothing but a doughnut of metal or plastic that spaces the spring down from it's seat, and in doing so, lifts the vehicle - the spring does not change, the spring rate does not change, so the suspension does not somehow magically become stiffer.  Search a little and you'll come across folks who claim that the fact that spacer lifts don't change the ride makes them better than spring lifts - just my $0.02, that doesn't make them better, it makes them worse, and the reason is that the raised center of gravity causes more body roll.
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 12:01:32 PM »
I’ve done enough spacer lifts and read enough to know that they can make a suspension stiffer.  Not sure what cases that though.  I’m debating a spacer lift on my hmmwv but what I’ve gathered is that they ruin the already marginal ride so I’m sticking to a body lift in that one for now. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 12:04:04 PM »
Also if you think about how suspension travels then any ifs suspension lift will actually tuck the front wheels in more, while also as you point out give more leverage from the higher CG.  So that’s why I was thinking some spacers to counteract that.  It’s not terrible and I can live with it as it is just wondering if there’s an easy improvement I’m overlooking.  It’s probably being caused by my light duty tires. 
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had

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Offline beagle..t

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 06:19:45 PM »
yes fordem that's what its called I couldn't remember
new rig aka "the mule" 2002 tracker
V6 swap auto  ,2 dr ,2" BL,2" jeffs kit 512 gears warn hubs and 30/9.5/15 BFG AT

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2018, 09:08:22 PM »
Like I said - the spring is the same, the spring rate doesn't change - you're using the same control arms, so there's no change in the "mechanical advantage" or leverage - it's not magic...
'98 SQ420 Grand Vitara
'05 JB420 Grand Vitara
'16 APK416 Vitara
'21 A6G415 Jimny

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Re: Wheel adapters for handling
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 11:39:22 PM »
So you’re saying a spacer lift won’t affect ride quality in any vehicle?
2003 Suzuki tracker 4d 5sp 2.0 “piglet”
Deleted air 4wd system, Manual hubs, 2” lift, 235/75,

Old ride: 1997 X90 “jellybean” best lil car I’ve ever had