ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: mojoincolorado on January 01, 2006, 07:57:51 PM
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Hello all,
In early December we had a real cold spell (almost thought I was in MN) and on the low of lows (-10 or so) the thermostat locked closed. I figured out htat the heater wasn't working and made the guess about 15 miles later. Anyhow, after replacing the thremostat, it started to run very poorly after it reached something in the range of warm. What it does is start to miss badly, especially below 3000 rpm. It will idle down for a few seconds, then die if I don't keep the rpm up (after ti gets warm).
I replaced the temperture sensor for the computer, as well as the MAF unit (found one off of an X90 reasonably priced). I have an OBD2 code reader and had nothing to read for the first week or two except 'engine missing' -- duh! The other day it had 4 failure codes, including the temp sensor, barometric pressure, MAF, and something else (don't have the list handy). I pulled the plugs: All are very clean-- no brown or black :o (just a couple of months old; strikes me as too clean).
I am tempted to at least get a large resistor to match the temp sensor and ground it (got to look up the circuit to make sure it goes to ground, etc). At least it should run okay.
What I really want to do is fix it. Vehicle has 148000 on the clock and is a 5 speed. Any ideas?
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I'm thinking a blown head gasket, from the
coolant not cirulating from a blocked T-stat
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head gasket might leak into the oil,he could look there, or it could be water in the fuel (cloging the filter) we have that problem here alot, I can hear my fuel pump grinding it up when cold out ;D(I know i'm too cheap to buy a bottle of heat) we have alot of bad gas stations here.
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Will have to check compression. Not using any water, but maybe just lucky. Still seems strange to have such clean plugs. May check fuel pressure anyhow.
Thanks for some starters.
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Will have to check compression.
leakdown test would be a great idea also
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Update:
Checked the valves, three exhaust .001 tight.
Torqued the head bolts I could get to (all but 1). Found the exhaust side bolts a bit loose (~30# or so).
Compression check yielded 110-125#. 5 minute leakdown ~2-4#. Book says 170-199 psi. All measurements taken around low to mid 40's, engine cold. Don't now the accuracy of my gauge (probably close), and at 6000', my levels would be a little low but I don't remember the correction multiplier. Anyhow, no great changes in operation. Also verified the cape and rotor have no cracks, or obvious distributor play.
Any thoughts out there?
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The white plugs and the ruff idle and poor running below 3k allomst sonds like a vac. leak, could be a sticky egr valve?
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Will look at that tomorrow -- thanks. IIRC, EGR doesn't work much until the engine is warm? Or am I thinking of it when it normally functions, as opposed to the head is warm and the thing is loose?
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If the egr valve is bad it is like a leaky faucet, hot or cold water does not matter ;D ya the shaft on them gets alot of carbon build up or a piece broke off and lodged itself in the seat. just a guess.
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Well, no joy on the EGR circuit. Tested all components; when pulling vacuum on the egr itself, engine speed drops.
Thinking that since it is sensitive to engine temp (depending on ambient temp, U get as much as 5 minutes before the idle starts to miss) I bypassed the intake air bypass (may be using the wrong term here: it mounts at the front of the intake) coolant lines (they are supposed to heat up a wax pellet and cause the bypass to close ~ 158 degrees). Didn't work any better (or worse ::).
Going to see if I can find a fuel pressure gauge and adapter. For what it's worth: if the engine is cold, I would bypass removing the connector on the fuel pump relay (it's WAY up in the dash & painful to access). Just put a rag over the plug as you remove it (you should anyhow to catch the dribbles).
Getting flumoxed here. Hate to have to give in and take it to someone.
Curious, anyone have any experience plus/minus on rebuilt engines an/or sources for them (long block)?
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No joy on the fuel pressure. Runs according to the book (high 30's to low 40's). No new codes (just the 'multiple cylinders miss firing' 0300 code).
Put a DMM across the TPS and it all looks good.
Did notice that the 'fuel open' sensor reading changed to closed after playing with the EGR stuff (now toggles like the book says it should).
I changed the forward O2 sensor as shot in the dark. No change.
Wondering, wondering, wondering (similar to thinking, with the same results: nothings happening). Under 3000 rpm (and at idle) irt misses, badly. At least now it mostly doesn't die at idle. Just takes a while to 'spool up' when left at idle.
I sprayed starting fluid around the intake and got no idle speed changes. Need some ideas before I have to actually see a mechanic. Shame the thought! :-X
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Could be dirty fuel injectors? leaking on idle would run good while cold and ok while driving over 3k rpm's, some times when rubber fuel lines start coming appart the dirt or broken piece of hose will lodge in the injector if the screens on them are not 100%, can you borrow a hand held pyrometer(point and click type) and see how your exhaust manifold temps are?
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Nada on the temp meter.
Will have to see if the book tells me how to remove/inspect the injectors. I'm wondering if I can make a device to test the spray pattern, etc, at home ( I know there were several dealer only tester based tests
Still seems like I am missing a critical clue on the start of the problem, and the way it is working. To recap, local overheating on an extremely cold 30 mile trip. Now it misses when warm, but only after temp sensor is in the mid 130's and up (as I recall the code reader saying).
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When my tps was acting up I would just unplug my temp sensor and run the ecm in open loop, it ran fine, not with all of the advance and fuel control but it had no miss at all.
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Tried it. No change. Still need to pull an injector. This thing reminds me of a motorcyle I had that had a bad coil. It would run great at high rpm, not at low rpm. But it had two coils. May have to put the timing light in it and see if it misses along with the engine. I MIGHT see missing spark that way, and at least be able to rule out the fuel system.
Got to be missing something basic....
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Don't know if you've looked into this yet but at the bottom of the timing belt housing lies the crank position sensor. Is there any oil leak there? Bad front seal (caused by wear or by bad keyway and timing cog wobble) will cause oil leak on crank position sensor and result in engine miss. Happened to me. Miss was always bad until engine warmed up and oil was slung off the timing cog.
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It looks like Mr Fuelish was on the right track(er)! Talked to the service manager at a local garage I took it to.
They ran most of the same checks I did, and came up with nothing (make sme feel good, but might ahve been cheaper if they had found something). Then they ran smoke into the intake manifold and watched for -- well, smoke! Had it coming out of the egr diaphragm. I don't know if I didn't catch it due to not testing it hot enough or what, but that's todays prognosis. Will see tomorrow afternoon if that was all. If that's it: $355 smackeroos. Could have bought a Lockrite for that! Or a pair of new struts (more likely).
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Ok, replaced the eGR. $179 for it! Plus the gaskets and time to do it. And an additional $63 to read the codes. I understand paying time for troubleshooting, but not for a 5-15 minute job. Especially when all it told you was 'multiple engine misfires'. They told me it was mostly fixed with a mild miss and may need a new distro (that's the way the pickup and coil assy are sold) for $300 and labor. So I wento NAPA and bought one ($200) and spent 5 minutes pulling it, and 5 minutes installing it. Still it misses!
Thinking I am missing a smoking gun I went around and tightened all intake bolts and checked the egr install (oh, forgot to mention the now broken atmosphperic pressure sensor mount and the drivers door window stuck in the down position -- I told them to not use it). No joy, so I put a resisitor in line to the engine coolant sensor (ect) to trick it itno thinking it is cold. It idles a little high (~1200) but at least it doesn't die. And it still misses under load.
ARRGGH!!!!!
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Pulled the timning cover (forgot how much a pita this is) and verified no slip on the belt.
Pulled the intake manifold and inspected all gaskets and air path surfaces.
Put it all back together and presto! It still runs like crap when warm.
Couldn't get the factory tune on the idel to work correctly, but probably related to the base problem.
Eieieiei!
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I know it sounds stupid but my buddy had the same problem with a sunfire he tried everything
started replacing stuff left right center
I said bring it over lets have a look
start at easy
check plugs wires coils he said no those are only two months old
Ok I will do timing it was spot on two hours later checking everything I said this is stupid
I am checking the plugs and wires grounded the plugs one at a time and checked the spark
2 out of 4 were firing erratic used a couple of donner wire and checked again and presto spark
the thing just ripes
it sounds like timing or spark does it miss fire under a load or just at idle?
if its load then its wire if its idle then timing or combo
just a thought start simple
Dustin
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Well, thanks to a fellow member local here (I emptied my messages too completely, so I can't give him credit -- thanks a bunch for Parker Imports; Stan was great and fast).
I now have a $175 set of $40 spark plug wires. But that's what you pay people for. And probably $500-$600 in repair and parts, and a lot of my hours in finding this problem. Now I have a shop for those times I am lost. Yeah!
To recap, I had the thermostat stick closed in early/mid December. Replaced the thermostat that day, but the vehicle started running poorly when it was warm (only), then got worse as time went on. I spent a lot of time troubleshooting and finally took the vehicle to a local shop. They ensured me that they had fixed most of the miss and wanted to replace the distributor for $300 plus labor. I decided that if it was indeed running so well a little miss was ok for a few weeks until funds came back up to level. I picked up the vehicle on the way to work (don't do this -- no time to review any issues;such as a window that was now stuck down, despite written orders to not roll window down for this very reason). Found that when it got warm it was running as normal, and all they had really done (besides the egr) was crank up the idle (and left the cap off; next to find one of these). And broke the atmospheric pressure sensor off its mount. clearly they had not driven the vehicle adequately before and after the repair.
After getting home and inspecting under the hood (finding the above) I called NAPA (a reason I went to the shop was they were a NAPA repair station, so I figured decent quality parts) and found the distro was $200; so I replaced it, no change. I then removed and replaced the intake, having found no bad gaskets, obvious issues, etc. Gave up, so I took it to the recomended shop. Now I have my Barbie Car back! SOOO much better than my F350 (it has a job: carry heavy loads, go straight, never pass a gas station). It does not turn. It will go to starboard and port, but only under protest. Barbie is like a puppy: noisy, jumpy, and spin in circles around that thing. Very annoying -- works for me.
Oh, almost forgot: I had replaced wires, rotor (another story here: two different rotor diameters, must specify), and cap in November with NAPA parts (the wires were mid priced set). The oem set still worked fine. The new set worked fine for a month or so. Coincidental failure really lead me the wrong way!
Too bad they don't make the good ol' basic two door anymore.
A bad set of wires cost me over $700!
Enjoy!