ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: AJMBLAZER on January 07, 2006, 04:28:51 PM
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Okay, got all 10 head bolts loose or off, exhaust manifold is completely off, and I'm planning on taking the intake manifold off after I get the head off the block. Which is the problem, it's on there good after 15 years. I do not have a cherry picker and for the life of me this thing doesn't want to come off.
Suggestions?
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;) I replied on your 1st. post on this subject, but I'll repeat: Have you tried Several hard blows with a large plastic dead blow mallet? If you can get to it, hit all four corners.(of the head) You may have to do this more than a few times. Once you get it loose you will probably find the head gasket is stuck pretty good and you'll have to do a bit of scraping. I'm assuming you already have the timing belt off, you should be able to lift it right out, it should't weigh more than 25/30 lbs.
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Did you remove any intake side support braces ??
There are some on the later models, or was that
just the 16V engines ? anyway, if all the supports
are off, grab the intake and lift the head off
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;) I replied on your 1st. post on this subject, but I'll repeat: Have you tried Several hard blows with a large plastic dead blow mallet? If you can get to it, hit all four corners.(of the head) You may have to do this more than a few times. Once you get it loose you will probably find the head gasket is stuck pretty good and you'll have to do a bit of scraping. I'm assuming you already have the timing belt off, you should be able to lift it right out, it should't weigh more than 25/30 lbs.
If you have removed any bracing below the intake (I don't think there is any being that your truck is pretty old..), the head bolts are off and the timing belt removed (hey, dumber things have been done! I know!) you should be able to bang it on the corners as suggested above and pop it off. perhaps using the intake as a lever (assuming you haven't started to take it off) should be enough for the head to release.
Guys: Isn't there a metal tab on the head somewhere that you can tap from below with a hammer that will help separate the head???
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i would say its the brace under the intake thats holding him up
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Yep, came right off after I removed that brace. Kept figuring I'd just pivot it on the brace...but no dice. Took the bolt out of the brace and used the intake for leverage (thanks ack ;) ) and it popped right off.
So some more questions (remember I've NEVER done this before, so please bear with all the questions):
-Pistons 1 and 2 have LOTS of oil sludge crap on the tops of them. 3 and 4 are pretty clean but have oil all over them that came out of the head as I was removing it. Cleaning tips for these?
-Cleaning the gasket surfaces (intake, head, block, exhaust, etc) what do you guys use other than a scraper?
-Do you guys use anything to stick the gasket to the surface? I remember my buddy used something when we took the intake off a 350 but...well, I can't remember what it was.
Man, what a mess but ideally...I'm reassembling now, so I'm sorta at or past the half way mark. :P
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So some more questions (remember I've NEVER done this before, so please bear with all the questions):
-Pistons 1 and 2 have LOTS of oil sludge crap on the tops of them. 3 and 4 are pretty clean but have oil all over them that came out of the head as I was removing it. Cleaning tips for these?
just bring each piston to the top of its stroke and use some brake cleaner for the oil, any carbon buildup I use a 3m Roloc disk on my drill, they make 2 types the scotchbrite or the bristle, I prefer the bristle(available at most parts stores)
-Cleaning the gasket surfaces (intake, head, block, exhaust, etc) what do you guys use other than a scraper?
the roloc bristle disk...these things kick major ass, just watch on any aluminum surfaces(head) , the bristles are only rubber but will do some damage(aluminum is very soft)
-Do you guys use anything to stick the gasket to the surface? I remember my buddy used something when we took the intake off a 350 but...well, I can't remember what it was.
intake, I believe is paper, so I use some Indian Head gasket shellac
head gasket, get some copper spray (it is really meant for metal hg, but i use it on all)
while the head is off make sure to check for warpage and/or cracks( a pressure test is ideal, but if it wasent overheated just take a good look between valve seats for cracks)
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I use sensorsafe silicone sealant. Just be careful what you use as a gasket scraper on alloy as it's real easy to do damage.
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Yeah so I got some Indian Head gasket stick stuff at NAPA. Should I be putting it on both sides of the head gasket or just one side? Which side(s)? Ditto for the exhaust and intake manifolds.
That's the problem with drinking when you wrench on friend's vehicles...years later you don't remember the finer details on stuff.
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Hey guy
Everyone has given you great advice....one thing for info's sake. All I ever put on a head gasket before install is a spray of WD 40. If everything is right it does not need anything else.
Zag
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Some head gaskets have a sticky coating,
well it's more of a lightly tacky coating, and
should not have any sealer of copper spray
put on it before installation.
WD40 is pretty safe, and would keep the
slightly tacky side from sticking too soon
to the block
Wild
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If its a metal gasket I just use use a light smear of clean engine oil. If its a fibe type it goes on clean and dry
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If its a coated multilayer aluminium gasket I just use use a light smear of clean engine oil. If its a fibre type it goes on clean and dry.
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What do you use to lubricate the camshaft seal? Damn FSM doesn't mention this. Motor oil, grease, gear oil...?
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A light coating of grease is fine, oil
will work, just don't want it dry when
the engine fires for the first time
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Cool, thanks. 8)
Seems like every step I take brings another thing I can't find in the FSM or have to come and ask you guys about. :P
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Okay, the intake manifold is on and the head is ready to be reinstalled. I was going to just put loctite on the head bolts and tighten them down in the two step process until I read the Factory Service Manual. It says to lube the head bolts with engine oil and then tighten them down. However I know for a fact these had loctite/thread locker on them from the factory because they were a bit of a struggle to get loose. So what should I use?
Oil or loctite? Both (how exactly... ??? )? Neither?
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Clean the threads clear with a wire wheel,
or a wire brush, light oil, wipe off any dripping
oil, you can use loc-tite on those, or just torque
them down without, I think the factory uses
loc-tite for an extra amount of guarantee that
the bolts don't come loose, more of a warantee
issue, a properly torqued bolt would be hard
pressed to work it's way loose, espessialy on
the head.
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I had new bolts so I just dipped them in 5w30 and installed them in two stages of torque, 27ft/lbs and then 54ft/lbs. Thanks for the advice. 8)
Head's on, timing belt's on, just getting things ready to do the valves tomorrow and then change the sprocket on the crank.
I got a bit worried when the FSM said to make sure the side of the cylinder head gasket that said TOP was up. My Victor-Reinz didn't have any labelling. Then I realized there was only one way you could put the gasket on...and I felt rather silly... ;D
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I had new bolts so I just dipped them in 5w30 and installed them in two stages of torque, 27ft/lbs and then 54ft/lbs. Thanks for the advice. 8)
Head's on, timing belt's on, just getting things ready to do the valves tomorrow and then change the sprocket on the crank.
Check your PM.
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Check..ing..
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I got a bit worried when the FSM said to make sure the side of the cylinder head gasket that said TOP was up. My Victor-Reinz didn't have any labelling. Then I realized there was only one way you could put the gasket on...and I felt rather silly...
Well that's not actually true, it might look like it,
but if you get the gasket on wrong, the head will
get no oil and seize the cam journals in short time
There is an oil hole that must be lined up properly.
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Well, you'd have to be covering up several holes and have holes in the gasket over bare metal in order to do that. Mine had holes on each (left or right) side that corresponded with holes in the block so that's what I ment by there was only one way to put it on.
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OK, it sounds like you got it installed right.
You would be surprised how many people
don't notice things like the oiling hole, and
seize the head about 5 min after startup
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Knock on wood I got it right. However I know the holes in the driver's side of the block had corresponding holes in the gasket and I lined those up for sure.
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This is the hole in question, if this
is not blocked off with the gasket
then you are good
(http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/block-A.jpg)
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Curious: did you find a reason for the high carbon deposits on the #1 & 2 cylinders? Any leakage should have been obvious on the surface of the head/block/head gasket (different colorations).
Enjoy!
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I think the valves were just gone and the rear two got a steam cleaning from the gasket leak.
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Okay, just got it all together, filled the radiator, filled the the crankcase. Started right up, idled high since it was cold and is now chugging along 15min later at about 800rpm. The problem...white smoke. ??? Is this to be expected, should I wait for it to warm up...I guess I don't know. Kinda at a loss and don't want to get dissappointed before I know more.
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Sounds like you are sucking coolant,
check the gasket between the intake
and the head.
Look for some coolant loss or does the
white smoke smell like coolant ???
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do you have bubbles in the rad comming out? praire dog and i did his 1.6 and it smoked till it got warm and the gasket sealed...was fine after that....
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I let it run for a good half an hour. Idled about 800rpm but bumped up to 1200rpm or so once or twice. Thermostat opening? Got nice and hot actually, probably a couple milimeters from the red mark on the temp guage.
Smoked the whole time. Now I have coolant all over the floor and the bottle is empty. Some was dribbling out of the overflow bottle but I'm not sure how that would work. Doesn't appear to be any leaks from the radiator or block area.
The exhaust wouldn't smell like coolant because I filled it with water. I doubted the thing had been flushed recently so I figured I'd dump the water and fill it with coolant after I got it running right.
Wonder if Shredder wants another Tracker....
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Did you check the head to make sure
it wasn't warped ? Could be a bad seal
on the head gasket, or did the head get
torqued down in the proper sequence and
to the right torque specs???
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It's a used head I got from Zaggy who said it was off a good running Kick. I had the local machine shop test it, mill it, and do the valves. They said it checked out with no cracks, warpage, etc.
54ft/lbs in two stages following the FSM's sequence.
I guess it sits until I have time to f with the thing. School starts tomorrow. :(
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OK, the head is good if it's been checked
like that, I say go back to the intake manifold
gasket, It's sucking coolant or water thru from
the inside, I've seen this happen before, and
that's the only place it could be getting the
coolant from, unless the head gasket is on wrong
Back to that again ::) , BUT your cam didn't seize
in the head, so it's probably right
Good Luck, keep us posted
Wild
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Is there a proper way to break the torque on the head?
Should I try for a little bit tighter, say 60ft/lbs which would be 10% more?
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There is, but I don't think it's as critical as
tightening, you could retorque the head bolts,
60 wouldn't cause any problems, but I don't
think it would help.
Did you rebuild the bottom end (pistons and or rings ??)
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Didn't touch the bottom end other than cleaning some of the crap on pistons 1 and 2.
I'm going to check the intake manifold again soon. Kinda wondering about it now that you mentioned it. There's a couple bolts on the bottom that are about impossible to tighten with a ratchet or torque wrench so I dunno if I might have not given them enough torque...maybe.
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Whoa........
You said coolant was all on the floor and none in the engine...right?
Which side of the engine is the coolant coming from...drivers or passengers?
Did you follow the torque sequence for the bolts?
All hoses tight (don't know how many times I've missed a clamp over the years)?
I think you will find it is something simple......got an air hose? Fill with water and lightly
pressure the rad while you dash around with a trouble light to find the leak.
Don't let it get you frustrated...it will be something simple I believe.
Zag
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Haven't even had time to check the radiator/engine for coolant yet. School started. Amazing how much time it takes up.
I think the water/coolant on the ground was from the overflow bottle. There was definately coolant there and the only place that had a large amount of coolant was the overflow, the radiator I filled with straight water for the first run.
I'll double check all the hoses, although I did as you said and missed one...only to find it rather messily upon starting the engine.
How would I pressure the radiator with an air hose? Just hold it into the water and let it go?
Wild/anyone, should I just try to retorque the intake manifold bolts or should I remove the whole thing and try again? I'm wondering about the bottom bolts/studs that are about impossible to get to.
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You might have to use a wrench instead
of a socket, if you don't have a "feel" for
the right torque, practice a little, tighten
the other nuts and feel where they start
to tighten, then get under the intake and
go at it.
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A tool I find a lot of help for tight spots is a wobble drive extension. Sears sells them under the import brand (Companion). 10 or 15 bucks for a set. Might be all you need to get in there.
Typing now corrected :o
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Proper torque is about 22ft/lbs for the intake and exhaust manifolds, correct?
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Okay, finally got time to dink with it a little bit. The oil doesn't look like a milkshake, but would it with water, not antifreeze? Nothing special on the oil cap and the dipstick looks clean, just regular new oil. ???
The overflow bottle was down maybe half it's capacity, but it was mostly water, not coolant. The radiator didn't need a lot of water for me to fill it, less than a gallon. The pail I used to fill it on Monday was under 4 gallons in capacity and I still have a third to a half of water in it.
Had some...stuff...kinda grey/brownish floating on the top of the radiator. Dunno if it was oil, oil/coolant milkshake left over, or just funk from this thing not having the radiator cleaned out. Wasn't much, I cleaned up most of it with one square of paper towl just dabbing it into the neck.
That's all I have for now. If I get my History homework done I'll dink with it again tomorrow.
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...anybody...?
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Fill it with water again and find out
if it's still blowing water out the exhaust.
If it's not leaking, but water is going down
you might have a bad intake gasket, or the
surface might of had a little piece of leftover
on it so it didn't seal.
Need more info, you found a hose loose, right ?
refill and test again, report your findings
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Hey there
You never mentioned which side the water/coolant appeared to be leaking from.
Check it out, if it is the passenger side it could be coming from the O ring sealing the tube
to the waterpump.
If you were working and leaned on it, bumped it etc it could be out of position and leaking.
The other option is to do a cooling system pressure test, you can rent the tester, just follow the directions. Alternately using an airhose and a rag you can VERY VERY CAREFULLY pressure the system through the rad cap opening by sealing the rad cap opening with a rag around the air chuck.
With the system pressurized (LOW PRESSURE, UNDER 15LBS) you will see where it is leaking.
Best of luck...keep us posted.
Zag
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I fixed the hose while I was still running it, pretty fast too.
I doubt it will be tonight, maybe tomorrow I can get it going again.
Would water (h2o) and oil make a chocolate milk shake goop like coolant and oil does?
I beleive the water on the floor came from the overflow bottle, my spills while filling the rad, and the one little hose under the intake manifold I missed for about 5 minutes.
Also, I noticed something yesterday and don't know if it's important or not. I pulled the overflow hose off of the overflow bottle after filling the radiator all the way up. With it on it did not appear to be draining any of the coolant into the bottle. As soon as I pulled the hose off of the bottle it started to trickle out of the end of the hose. Some kind of pressure issue, but would this be normal/okay?
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Yes on the water oil mix
A heating up radiator will start to push
the coolant out into the bottle, that's normal
unless I don't quite understand what you wrote
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Okay, I'll check it again when I run it, see if the oil gets milky because now it looks like practically new oil...which it is. ???
The engine was cold, radiator cold, with fresh water in it. I noticed the bit of water over the drain tube in the neck wasn't draining off. When I pulled the hose off of the overflow bottle it poured right out of the hose.
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Well, checked the intake manifold bolts again today and one one the bottom was sorta loose but it's good and tight now. Started it up again and:
Got smoke? I do. Same shit. I could sit there and watch the resevoir tank slowly drain of coolant. No leaks or anything up at the engine, just the resevoir tank draining a bit and smoke continuously coming out of the tailpipe. Probably lost a quarter of the bottle in the 15 minutes I was running it.
Got water/oil shmegma looking goo under the oil cap again too.
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OK, you got a bad intake gasket,
you need to remove and replace.
The vacuum of the engine is sucking
the coolant/water into one of the ports
OR on a TBI system you could be sucking
coolant from the TBI Base gasket, if you
didn't remove the TBI unit, I would go
straight to the intake gasket
Good Luck
Wild
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Gotta agree with Wild on this one........
TBI gasket or intake gasket are the only sources I can think of for those syptoms
Zag
ps
Why is it Wild and I agree with each other so much?
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had the same thing happen to me. gotta bad intake gasket . put on a new one free from napa but my labor was free also. runs great now
Ross
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Anyone have a favorite brand of intake gasket? I have this new defective one from NAPA, a Victor Reinz. Just wondering if any other brands are better?
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Victor is an age old company, I don't think it's the
gasket construction that's the problem, my best
guess is there is some left over gasket still on the
manifold or the head, or the gasket got tweeked
slipping it onto the studs and it just can't seal, also
when it was a little loose the vacuum might of
damaged it and now no amount of tightening will help
Zaggy, you know as well as I do
Great Minds think alike ;D
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Okay, I'll pick up another at NAPA and try it out.
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i had that dreadd smoke , turned out a crack in the lower block between 2 and 4 i think havant stripped it to find it ,
fingers crossed it your inlet
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I'm about licked. Pulled the intake manifold, cleaned it up real nice and purty, then put the new intake manifold gasket on.
Still smokes. This time I left the radiator cap off and ran it for about half an hour. Slowly climbed up to about half way on the temp guage, then just a bit higher, maybe 60% of the way to the red line. Spitting a little bit of water out the tailpipe the whole time. Finally after the half hour or so it starts gurgling water/oil goo out of the radiator. I turned it off at this point and water just kept coming for a bit.
WTF does that mean? I've never had a vehicle as fu$^ed up as this thing so I guess I don't know. The coolant system is full of oil/water/coolant sludge.
I'm about to throw in the towel. Don't have the time and money to keep dicking with it. Guess I have to start making plans to move it or something.
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At this point, I'm at a loss.
If it didn't do this before, why is it doing it now?
What is changed since before when it was running?
List all parts, gaskets etc.
16V or 8V? milage? why did it need to come apart?
lets start over and look at this again from a fresh start.
I'm going to go back and re-read the thread, seems like
I had some of these Qs before but didn't ask.
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I had an overheating problem wheeling this weekend and I will need to change the head, I was reading through the tread and I wonder If there is any one who could list the steps to take off the head,, I have done it to a little honda but I'm new with trackicks, mine is a 92 tracker 1.6 16V. I have questions like the tightening sequence for head, exhaust, and intake? torque? I have no manuals, is there a manual on line??
I will greatly appreciate your help
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Haven't been on line for a bit and just caught up with this...
AMJBLAZER...calm down now it's just a mechanical device it is not out to get you. Really, it just seems like it.
Lets check some stuff out before going any farther...
1) Borrow or rent a coolant pressure tester...its cheap comes with instructions, Pep Boys or
Auto Zone should have them to rent or borrow.
By pressuring the system and doing this test it will tell you if there is an internal or external
leak and give you a chance to find it.
2) Compression test.....are they all even, could be an odd ball problem, this test is cheap or
free if you can borrow a tester.
3) Check the plugs...are any wet?
I recall you didn't have a lot of history on the engine and had commented that it was badly put together when you were working on it....is this correct?
Do we know if it was ever overheated in a big way?
Lets look at what we know from the posts...
1) The head has been replaced and you had it checked before install so you know it's good
2) The intake manifold etc is all mounted correctly and well sealed
3) A little bit of water is coming out the tail pipe...depends what you mean by a little bit, if is a
very small amount is could be normal...water is a by product of combustion....if it is an
appreciable amount it is telling us there is a leak of water/coolant to the combustion
chamber.
4) When it warms up, by your last description, it is pressuring up the system without the rad
cap on and pushing oil and coolant out the rad cap. This is unfortunately a sign of internal
leakage. Which leads to...
- Bad head gasket...rare, very rare, but I have seen it before.
- Block deck badly warped...did you check it with a straight edge before installing the head?
- Cracked block........I sure hope not. It would mean the poor thing has been heavily
overheated at some point.
Is there any other info you have about how it ran before you took it apart?..a little more background might help.
Let us know and we can put our heads together to figure it out step by step, cheaply as possible.
Zag
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Zag, it ran pretty good when I got it. Smoked just a bit but it obviously needed the valves done and we figured the smoke poofs were oil. Didn't smoke at all like it started doing a few weeks later.
Can't say if it ever overheated. In the 3 hours I drove it home it got to a nice half way warm position, nothing abnormal. The couple days I actually got to drive it before it started to spew clouds of smoke it didn't get all that hot either.
I did not check the block for warpage. Didn't really know to and don't have the tools anyways.
Haven't pressure tested anything. Time/money issues.
I can't say it was put together poorly, just that when they installed it they did some pretty redneck stuff. Wire nuts on the distributor wires, the crank accessory pulley fiasco, the rat's nest routing of the wiring looms, etc. That's why I think they knew more about this engine than they put on.
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Ok...sounds like it is going to be something fairly basic.
To be clear, once you got it back together is ranok for a couple days and then started this non-sense....right? (Just making sure I understand all the details, not questioning you.)
Does it start running rough when it's warm?
Take a real hard look at the goo coming back out of the rad....does it have silver or black flecks in it?
Check and see if there are wet plugs....easy and no cost
- if there are wet plugs are they side by side?
- which number plugs 1-2-3-4? (from the front to rear, not being a smart a** just want to
get it right)
Check it out and we can try and go from there.
Zag
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It's never ran right since it started really smoking in the end of November. I bought it about Nov 18th and drove it 3 hours home and a couple days to work. Ran well enough but was a bit low on coolant. Seemed to use coolant a bit but the oil wasn't mixed with coolant, if very dark and dirty. Day after Thanksgiving, the 25th for you Candians ;) , it starts smoking bad. Like cover-cars-around-me-in-smoke-clouds smoking. Suddenly it's eating coolant REALLY fast. Parked it after two days like that. Contacted you about the head that time.
Fast forward a month I have the head, it's been cleaned/tested/rebuilt, the school year is over and I start working on the engine in evenings and on weekends. A few weeks ago I get it together and it smoked like it had when I parked it from initial start up. Let it sit for a week, tried again, same damn thing. Last weekend I put a new intake manifold on it, went over all of that portion of the engine really closely, and it still smokes like when I parked it in November. Like the last 2 months never happened. :-\
It actually runs a bit nicer now, aside from the white smoke of death coming out of the tailpipe, but then I also put new cap, rotor, wires, plugs, timing belt, oil, filter, PCV, etc etc etc on it while I was in there. It wasn't quite right but then I haven't timed it yet either, it might be off a little, it might be off a LOT.
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AMJBLAZER.....
Wish I had all this earlier.
Guessing.......and this is just a guess no more or less.
Has all the classic signs of a cracked block that someone dumped sealant in to get rid of it.
I could be wrong....but that's one place the symptoms lead, and I certainly hope I'm wrong.
Start by pulling the plugs like we talked about....
But you are really going to need that coolant system pressure test and compression test
to chase this puppy down.
Lets see what gives with the plugs and then we can take the next step.
Zag
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Hey AMJBlazer...
Did you ever pull the sparkplugs?
Zag
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Nope. Haven't touched it since I parked it behind the garage. Honestly, I'm probably not going to do anything with it. Got a paper to write and homework in all 3 classes along with an oil change, tire rotation, and a Ranger with a ton of stuff that needs doing.
Don't worry about it anymore. It's parts for the next one and/or whoever else wants what ever is left. I'm washing my hands of it. :) Thanks for all the help though.