ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: billybob on January 11, 2006, 09:40:42 AM
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As we all may know... the rods on the 16valve are the weak link to a very capable engine. As fate would have it, I had one fall outta the sky and land in my garage. Problem is that one of the rods are bad.
I'm under the impression that there are forged rods that fit the Acura 1.6 that require just a little machining to match the Suzuki rods. Has any of you heard of this? Can you get me some details? Any help would be fantastic!
TIA,
billybob_CA
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Don't know why you have the impression that the rods are weak.
Past experince and the tear down of a great pile of these engines shows the problem generally isn't the rods, but oil starvation.
Any way...
Rather than switching rods around why not just beef up what you have? It's what I have done for my aircraft applications.
- Shot peen
- Beam polish
- New or hi perf rod bolts and nuts
- Resize
- Balance
If you loose a rod after that you've got bigger problems
Just my opinion
Zag
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Forged Honda rods sounds cool, but the
rods in the Suzuki engines are beefier and
have more of a Small Block Chevy look than
what Honda rods are.
I run a turbo on the stock 1.6 8V engine, which
shares the same rods as the 16V, and I can tell
you that 150 HP is not a problem, these rods can
take 200 and be fine, but you might want to give
them the treatment Zaggy mentioned
Wild
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Yes, I have heard of the odd rod going but generally they seem to be in some pretty worked motors and as Zag has said oiling could be the culprit. Also some severe overboost has been at fault too. What are your plans ?
Zag, just wondering if you have got that book yet? Be interested to hear your thoughts.
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Hey Zaggy, what do you think about using two
sets of main bearings, and use the halfs that
have the grooves in them, this way providing
a constant flow of oil from both sides of the oiling
groove into the main journal and oiling hole to the
rods ???
Wild
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What are your plans ?
Well... thinking supercharger onna totally rebuilt engine, but seems a little pricey from what little research I've done so far. Also considering the turbo effect... not sure about the lag tho' I run alot of sand dunes 'round here and the supercharger I think would be more suited to the task... need more information before I really decide.
So all things considered, I wanna get a solid rebuild outta this engine that'll harvest as many ponies as I can whilst being dependable.
L8R
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Go turbo, use somthing from about 1.6-1.8L
you will not have too much lag, I have been
happy with my setup, 5 PSI boost in about
20 feet from a stop, sand dunes are fun with
150 HP on tap
Wild
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Ya Wild...
Price wise turbo's the bet! I'd like some pix on your set-up and how you made it all go together. Did you go new or used? Lotsa boneyards out here and lots of turbo vw's. Kinda thinking onna smaller turbo 1-1.5 inch to cut down on lag time. Whattaya think?
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My buildup, good and bad ideas are all on
http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods
Check it out and follow the links, feel free to PM, E-mail
or drop me a line here on ZW and I will answer any Qs
you have
Wild
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Hey Wild and CJ
Sorry I'm not around as much...world is pretty wierd right now.
CJ
Still haven't recieved the book 21st Century performance...ordered through Amazon and the damn thing still hasn't showed.
Have seen it now at least, for me it's gonna be an addition to the library. Didn't see anything in it to justify buying it, pretty basic stuff and some of it highly opinionated rather than factual
I think it would be a good book for someone starting off but at $70.00 Cdn landed I can't recommend it.
Seeing as it is already ordered I will still take it for my kid. Good read for someone just beginning. IMHO
Hey Wild
I've thought the same thing on the bearings, just been to chicken to try it. You would need to boost the oil volume a pile to keep the pressure up though...and I don't know if it would really solve the oiling problem.
What I have seen in all the tear downs is that the rod (s) blow...usually #3...from oil starvation, rather than a system problem. So I think I will concentrate more on oil control rather than the oil system. Things like a crank scraper, better windage tray, bigger sump with trap door type oil control baffles to increase capacity.
For the size and out put of the engine the oil capacity is a little small which drives the temp of the oil up and can make it hard to get a stable feed in extreme angles. Let you know how it works out on the next aircraft engine. (can't get more extreme angles than that).
Oh yeah...have the oil holes in the crank champhered, lets more oil get to the bearing surface over a slightly wider area....like your double bearing idea with out needing to increase the oil volume.
Nice chatting guys I'm gonna try and be around more but it's tough right now.
Zag
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What I have seen in all the tear downs is that the rod (s) blow...usually #3...from oil starvation, rather than a system problem. So I think I will concentrate more on oil control rather than the oil system. Things like a crank scraper, better windage tray, bigger sump with trap door type oil control baffles to increase capacity.
For the size and out put of the engine the oil capacity is a little small which drives the temp of the oil up and can make it hard to get a stable feed in extreme angles.
So are there aftermarket high volume oil pumps available for the zuki? I definitely will be interested in the outcome of the increased oil capacity you mentioned.
TIA,
billybob_CA
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Yes, there are high volume oil pumps
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I acquired a 5 door a few weeks back with a blowen motor. Number four had let go exited out the R/H/S hitting the starter motor so hard it pushed it away from the block and the cracked the bell housing too :o
Luckily I have a few spears around to fix er up !
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Yes, there are high volume oil pumps
Who sells them?
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TOGA High Volume Oil Pumps for Suzuki
http://www.importperformanceparts.net/
Don't know if you can get them from there Rhino,
but the brand is what you might be able to find
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Wild, Zaggy & Rhino,
What do you think caused this rod to break ?
It doesn't have any obvious signs of lack of oil like bluing the pin or any thing. The rod brake is crystallized all the way across with no area showing any signs of where it started to go.
Seeing this has me concerned now about Mudfkrs doing the same when I'm caning it in the mud to clear the tyres. Don't think I'll let it hit the rev limiter any more ;D
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That's an unusual place to break.
I would guess it was fatigue in the rod,
and not a lack of lubrication that caused this.
You might find a lot of piston slap could cause
this kind of damage, every object has it's resonation
frequency, reach that and things go snap
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Looking at the picture........
1) High rpm detonation
2) Excessive rod angle, possibly due to too much clearance
Haven't seen a Suzuki break in that area personally but on very high rpm Nissans I have seen it, or something real similar.
Got yerself a real rare one there.
Zag
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Not too easy to see on that pic but the surface finish looks a little rough, maybe it developed a stress crack in a casting pit. Could have been a candidate for cleaning up and shot peening like Zaggy suggested.
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Hey y'all...
just did some research and found that Pauter machine here in San Diego area makes custom HP rods for the 16valve at approx $750. Little pricey... still lookin into the Acura rod rumor.
L8R
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So wild you say you have 150hp and can run sand dunes in the kick. Mine is horrible on sand it seems to bog down on power on long steep runs. I have 120 stock with the 1.8 and plus i got chip intake cam exhaust. I wonder how much lighter the 2 dr is compared to the 4dr.
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Hey Suzuki 1.8
You're running a lowered 22" rim Sport in the dunes? I would think bogging would,nt be the biggest problem. (lol)
Your Sport is around 6-700lbs heavier than a stock 2dr 8 valve so thats part of it. The other part will be Wild's boost........bigger torque across the range, and I think he has some decent gears.
You just need a little more snort to catch up with him and I think about 30hp and a tire/gear combo would do it.
Zag
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Ya, I run 33" tires 5.83 gears, which bring me
lower than stock gears and tires. Add the weight
of the 2 door at 2500 Lbs plus me at 200 lbs and
150 HP engine with quite a bit more torque and
you have a monster of a ride, mind you I still will
have a challenge in the big dunes with the buggies,
but I don't have paddles either
So at 2700 Lbs I have about 18 lbs per HP, about the
same as a full size truck with 350-400 HP, and in a much
more capable package.
I expect to be getting about 200-210 HP from the new
engine and lower that to around 12-13 Lb per HP and
increase the dunability also ;D
BTW 22" tires don't air down well, and the foot print,
is also a big factor, as well as tread pattern
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Well i don't run the dunes know i'm lowerd and wheels. It was before when i had normal tires. And i only have 20 inch on the sidekick >:( But i been eye balling the new grand because it is bult on a chevy platfrom and has alot more wheel choices so 22 inch is possible. So if i ran a turbo with about 5 pounds of boost would i be over 200hp considering i'm around 140 right now with all my mods?
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Ya, about that, 5 PSI will give you about a 40-50%
power increase, as long as your EFI system can
supply the fuel to run right.
Compression ratio is the biggest factor in boost
levels, and forged pistons are a must over 5 PSI