ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: beercheck on March 09, 2006, 08:06:23 PM
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....do something when it's not busy holding my drink.
So, somebody smarter than me needs to help me shoot this idea down. Or at the very least, someone saner than me needs to help me through my troubles..
I've got this Tracker that I'm putting an XL7 drivetrain under. Without working very hard at it, I'm not going to be able to add any limited slip or locker goodies in the back.
But, I will have the automatic. And this extra parking brake lever from the donor just sitting around doing nothing. And that damned open differential. And a spare hand... You see where I'm going with this, right?
Seems to me, it would only take a little fabricating to install the 2nd lever beside the original lever. If I were to attach them independently to each rear wheel, wouldn't I have an instant as-needed locker back there? Right wheel comes up...spins freely....I reach over and pull on the right rear parking brake lever....power transfers to the left rear......I get some traction.....truck moves.......right rear comes back into contact.....I release right rear parking brake..... Happy trails, no?
Worse, it actually looks like there's room to mount a second lever between the driver's seat and the existing parking brake lever, with some judicious cutting of the console.
Somebody straighten me out here, willya?
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I rode in a guy's sand rail last year and he had something similar. We were doing a climb that almost made me cry and he did something like that. Also had some strange drifting characteristics.
Go for it! Can't hurt anything.
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Ran a set-up like that ( but with long pushlevers with big soft handles on 'em) on my Baja Bug about 27 years ago (http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/images/smilies/shutup.gif)
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They are called "Cutting" brakes
I have toyed with this idea in conjunction with an ARB or Electric Yota axle locker...
Ever driven a tractor? one brake for each rear wheel... will get you a LOT of places..
My dad made up an old woods buggy one time.. out of an old Datsun pick up.. mounted a Chevy three speed tranny behind a stock Datsun 5 speed... and split the brakes and added another handle to give him "cutting" brakes... even though the little truck was 2wd.... he could take that thing places Jeeps couldn't go.. (before the time of TracKicks..)
I will look for a picture... it was a cool little ride.. He even had a rack on the back for a small 100cc motorcycle, incase he got stuck so bad that he had to ride back to the barn and get the tractor... LOL..
Growing up, our 4n Ford WAS our woods buggy... LOL
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I'll be doing cutting brakes on the front of the Tracker. I'm gonna use the setup out of a SandRail. Use a single lever cutting brake. I'm sure the CVs aren't gonna like it the best but I'm sure they'll live.
I have toyed with this idea in conjunction with an ARB or Electric Yota axle locker...
Us Jeep guys been doing this for quite some time in Comp Rigs.
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I'll be doing cutting brakes on the front of the Tracker. I'm gonna use the setup out of a SandRail. Use a single lever cutting brake. I'm sure the CVs aren't gonna like it the best but I'm sure they'll live.
I have toyed with this idea in conjunction with an ARB or Electric Yota axle locker...
Us Jeep guys been doing this for quite some time in Comp Rigs.ÂÂ
Right on.... I have seen those set ups... kick butt.. plus with a rear disconnect, you can do burn turns and all sorts of stuff... that would be a killer set up on these little buggies... you could spin them in their own wheelbase.. cool..
Here is the shot of the little buggy my dad made, oh... 25-28 years ago.....
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plus with a rear disconnect,
Can you disengage the rear of a Track/Kick? I put a D300 in my YJ so I could have true twinstick. Engage front or rear wheels indepentaly.
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plus with a rear disconnect,
Can you disengage the rear of a Track/Kick? I put a D300 in my YJ so I could have true twinstick.  Engage front or rear wheels indepentaly.
No, not on a stock set up.... I have seen a couple of custom set ups that you could... awesome flexibility in tight spots....
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Seems to me, it would only take a little fabricating to install the 2nd lever beside the original lever. If I were to attach them independently to each rear wheel, wouldn't I have an instant as-needed locker back there? Right wheel comes up...spins freely....I reach over and pull on the right rear parking brake lever....power transfers to the left rear......I get some traction.....truck moves.......right rear comes back into contact.....I release right rear parking brake..... Happy trails, no?
Worse, it actually looks like there's room to mount a second lever between the driver's seat and the existing parking brake lever, with some judicious cutting of the console.
Somebody straighten me out here, willya?
From 4x4 Garage:
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Now that's what I want... 4 wheel cutting brakes, and ARB Front and rear.... YEAH!
You could get places you hadn't dreamed of with that set up
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4 wheel cutting brakes, and ARB Front and rear.... YEAH!
;D You're still dreaming.
How does one hook up cutting brakes to the front? I can understand the rear with drums working off an e-brake, but for the front, it seems like it'd need some sort of master cylinder assist on the discs.
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I'm intrigued too
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Over here we call them 'fiddle brakes' been around a VERY long time, very popular in trials cars.
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Those are hydraulic, with one way check valves I would imagine, to allow them to be used in unison with a pedal, and proportioning valve.
It's all pretty old technology.. but there are new twists you could add..
It's all about money and know-how.. all the parts are off the shelf.
with active hydraulic suspension, you could force any wheel down to get traction, or lift any wheel up... I have seen TWO buggies with something like this... they were sick.. and VERY high dollar.. out of my range at the moment by a long shot...
Wanna get really weird, combine ALL of the above with 4 wheel steering... and more..
the ability to dream the next level allows someone to build the next level..
some of the state of the art rock crawlers are just insane with technology (even though the straight forward ones still seem to be winning...lol)
The "straight forward" style buggies we think are standard today, were RADICAL a few years ago.....
it's all evolution.. viva imagination..
Split those brakes, mount the other E-brake handle, and check it out.. works like a charm!
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I might just have to get ahold of another rig to do this myself...
Something worth messing up...
Perhaps...
Just perhaps...
I will buy a Jeep.
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Hello,
This just might confuse you guys more...we do that on dirt track cars with line locks like they use in drag racing.If you had four line locks,some relays,etc. Get the picture.. you could have four switches to control every thing from.I would use three way switches....OK here goes try to follow. Lets say you want to lock the right rear...filp the r.rear switch...It kills brakes to all wheels but the r.rear,Hit the brake petal.And it locks up. We use them to shut of the right front to use the brakes to set the car up going into the corner at speed.No right front brake throws the car into a slide under power by just stabing the brake.That why you need 3 way switches...Postion 1 is to lock that wheel,2 is off, and three would go to the relay to lock all the other brakes off. You can use this like a ebrake set up.Hit the brakes,lock all wheels and release the petal,now the line locks hold the pressure on the brakes.
Hope that Helps,
Later Tom K.
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This sounds really cool. Is there anywhere to see a schematic? I like schematics.
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This sounds really cool. Is there anywhere to see a schematic? I like schematics.
I knew someone would ask that....I'll have to draw up a set this week for you guys...But it's basic wiring...somewhat..... OK here goes I'm only doing one switch,just do over of each wheel.
OK Switch has 3 poles,1-2-3
Take 1 to the line lock. positive side,
Take 2 to fused 12 volts.
Take 3 to the relay.positive side. then run wires to the other linelocks.
It would be best to have a screw terminal strip for this type install.
The relays will keep it from feeding the system voltage when they are not needed.
May-be this way would me more clear....A line lock needs 12volts to lock.
Use a regular old switch with 2 connections.
1 connection goes to 12 volts.
2 goes to the relay(just like the ones used for fog lights)
Then from that relay go to 3 of the line locks. lets say RF,LF,and RR
Ok we call that switch LR.
Flip the switch,RF LF and RR line locks shut off the flow to the brake system.
Hit the brake petal,LR will lock up.
The reason for the three way switch is so you don't have to hold the brake petal to get it to lock up.So you could hit the brakes,filp that switch and let off the brakes, now that wheel is locked untill you turn off the switch.So now you can have both feet for clutch and gas ;D
Clear as mud now right???? ??? ???
Later Tom K.
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Wow. I understand, but if you do a schematic, I would definitely understand. I want a new project truck, and with new project trucks come projects, and this sounds fun.
Does anyone have a link to save hobgoblin some time?
Beercheck, decide on doing the cutting breaks?
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I like off the wall subjects like this!
Hobgoblin,
If I understand correctly, you would need four line locks and if you want to be able to lock the RR and LR independently, you would need TWO 3 pole switches?
Sooo.....
Why can't the regular Lever activated cutting brake (like in sandrails) work? It looks like it would be less complicated because it locks either the left or rear tire with the lever. Then you apply gas and turn sharply.
Please explain, I'm missing something and this peaks my intrest. :D
It was mention earlier, about installing cutting brakes on the front, I do not see the advantage of this ??? (Unless it was referring to HobGoblins Idea).
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Beercheck, decide on doing the cutting breaks?
Well, the folks on this board have certainly done a crappy job of talking me out of it.ÂÂ
I'll have to see how the rest of the drivetrain/dash swap goes, but it's a "must try" project for sure. First priority is to have a running truck again ASAP. There've been no serious obstacles....yet, but each time a little difference between the trucks pops up, a little bead of sweat forms on my brow. The shape of the underhood frame......the design of the steering shaft......the number of ground wires attached at a given location.....you know, little things. It's also yet to be determined just how badly having that effing remote starter wired into the donor harness is going to mess with my happiness.  After that, and based on the level of difficulty of each as I get to it, the wish list is:
1) Transfer the ABS.
2) Split the brakes
3) Transfer the rear air, at least in some fashion. 'Cause it'd be cool.
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1) Transfer the ABS.
2) Split the brakes
3) Transfer the rear air, at least in some fashion. 'Cause it'd be cool.
Haha, on a soft-top?
I really like this project you have going. Where's suspension on that list?!
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u need to buy a set of steering brakes from a sand rail shop they are about 100 and then run your back brakes directly to the steering brakes eliminating them from the front brake system this way u will have two seprate brake units if u break a line or something u have a back up your back brakes are on a 80/20 split u wont notice much if any in the woods of braking power u will need steering brakes that have the small built in master cylinder might be a little more than a 100 but well worth i have a high dollar rail and that set up was some of the best money spent and wasnt much
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Haha, on a soft-top?
I really like this project you have going. Where's suspension on that list?!
Well, you know, the dog runs pretty hard, gets pretty hot. A nice fresh dose of super cool back there would be sweet.
Regarding suspension, it's not very high on the list right now. That might be next year's project. Got 1" spring spacers already, and I might get a tick more lift in front when I take the XL-7's front springs for the added weight of the 2.7. I may add longer shocks/struts soon, but I'm not in a rush.
Taking the night off from actual work on it. Stood around with a beer after dinner surveying things.
Good news: The addition of the 2nd lever and splitting the brakes looks even easier than I thought. Need to grind a slot into the hump, grind off part of both equalizers, and bolt or weld on a little angle iron as a support. Then it's bolt-in. The cables are already split and, according to my dead reckoning, won't even need to be relocated. So that's probably what, 15 bucks for a junkyard lever and equalizer, plus another couple bucks for a few inches of angle iron? The grinding of the slot will the trickiest part, but how tough can that be? Twenty bucks, a couple hours of work, and you've got, essentially, an open diff for street driving and tight turns, but instantly lockable if you really, really need it. And the casual observer might not even notice there are two levers, if I'm neat.
First, though, gotta get things running again..
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Reality check on "instantly lockable"
it's not gonna be like grab a lever and get instant equal traction from both rears..
it takes finesse and practice to use cutting brakes effectively...
go for it though... it's way cool.... and very very nice when you get it down.. ask the Rail guys, like above.. even split emergency brakes make pretty darned good cutting brakes...
but, an air locker on top of that would be the shizzle...
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Got 1" spring spacers already, and I might get a tick more lift in front when I take the XL-7's front springs for the added weight of the 2.7.
Sweet
The addition of the 2nd lever and splitting the brakes looks even easier than I thought.
Sweet!
Twenty bucks, a couple hours of work, and you've got, essentially, an open diff for street driving and tight turns, but instantly lockable if you really, really need it.
Sweet!!
First, though, gotta get things running again..
Hurry!!!
However, beer breaks are exceptable.
Hope you'll take lots of pics; reference material for the dreamers.
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Reality check on "instantly lockable"
it's not gonna be like grab a lever and get instant equal traction from both rears..
Okay, you called me out on this, so here it comes.. "Equal traction" is pointless. What's important is getting power to wherever the traction actually is. In a situation where a slight traction advantage is constantly going back and forth between the two wheels, like in mud or snow, the cutting brake won't help much; fully locked rules. But in a situation where one wheel loses contact with the ground (which is what I meant by "if you really, really need it"), the cutting brake will be just as good as a locker, since preventing the no-traction wheel from turning transfers 100% of the torque to the other wheel, exactly like being fully locked.
it takes finesse and practice to use cutting brakes effectively...
go for it though... it's way cool.... and very very nice when you get it down.. ask the Rail guys, like above.. even split emergency brakes make pretty darned good cutting brakes...
but, an air locker on top of that would be the shizzle...
Ah, but nobody feels like marketing an air locker for my application.
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ah..... late model Track? bummer..... ARB makes them for ALMOST everything.. I didn't realize they didn't make them for yours...
When/if I get around to spending the bucks on front and rear ARB's... I will definitely have cutting brakes on the rear, and I might try to do cutting brakes on the front soon... as I am still open up there, and doing what you are saying.. stopping the spinning tire would be REAL handy on the front on the trails I frequent..
Good thread...
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Late model Tracker, but it'll have XL-7 running gear.
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Ok, I am SERIOUSLY going to look into cutting brakes on the front of my Track..
I wheeled out at Haspin Acres IN, today.. and fell in with a bunch of NICE trucks..
Here are some pics.. .couple of highly nice Sammys.. especially the tall blue one.. it's on Yota axles, that have been trussed oh so very nicely.. lots of other nice touches too..
http://www.forumsigs.com/users/quaddawg605/HaspinMarch18/
But the one rig I didn't get a chance to get some shot of is the one that SOLD me on front cutting brakes instead of a full time locker.. (and one day, in addition to an ARB or some other selectable)
It was a little jeep comanche pick up with no bed and nice tubing... he had a set of rail buggy cutting brakes on the front instead of a locker, and it was neat watching him climb big twisty ruts.. and when he picked a front tire.. he just eased the picked tire's brake lever till the other side started pulling.. walked it anywhere he wanted.. MUCH better for tight trails than a front locker.. MUCH better for slick side slopes too...
The ONLY thing I can see that would improve his set up was the addition of full lockabilty like an ARB or something.. cause you know, lots of hills, deep mud, etc... you want all four pulling like a champ!
He told me he doesn't break front end parts at all like a locked front.. and that it was MUCH more manueverable on Hasping style trails..
My ultimate locker set up on THIS current Zuk I have will be (wallet willing.. over time.. :D)
1st, cutting brakes on front.
2nd, Loose the spool and an ARB for rear
3rd ARB for front..
and finally, cutting brakes for the rear too.. just for grins..
If I can figure/steal/borrow the ideas for an acceptable way to get full twin stick functionality, at a reasonable price (what's that??) (Rear disconnect is what I am talking about here) Combined with all the phases of cutting brakes and air lockers above I personally think I will have my idea of the perfect tight woods trail vehicle that would climb rocks better than you might think... You could spin the thing on a dime.. forward or reverse..
and then there is 4 wheel steering... lol.. that would be INSANE with the above on one of these little Zukers.... LOL...
I have seen rock buggys with all that stuff.. but has anyone heard of a Trackick done up like this??
It would be totally sleeper too.. since my Track looks like it rides so low anyway (no body lift!) and it gets around incredibly as it is.. (followed ALL the vehicles in the pictures today.. and with much less backing and getting a run at stuff.. the Zuks never cease to amaze me) you could make the cutting levers fairly small that stuff is never obvious to the casual observer..
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That blue Sami's pretty kickass, though I wonder why, like on quite a few offroaders, he did coils in the rear and kept leaves in front. Didn't see any pics of the Comanche!
Keep dreamin Quad, and one day your dreams may come true.
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No, I forgot to charge my camera battery, and had run out by the time he climbed that rut..
They aren't dreams.. ;D they are semi-unresolved plans... 8)