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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: KickTurn on March 14, 2006, 06:36:32 PM

Title: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: KickTurn on March 14, 2006, 06:36:32 PM: So, I'm new to Suzukis, and I'm looking forward to building a 95 1.6 16v Kick. Based on my searches on this forum and the FSM, I think I think:

1) that a switch from auto to manual hubs is just a matter of six bolts. Is that correct? No differences in spline count or anything else?

2) that the FSM shows the auto hubs with different bolts (than the manuals) and no cone washers, so will I need to find cone washers to go with the manual hubs? True? But if so would the cone washers be of a different diameter?

3) that the stock manual hubs are Aisins. I should be able to find these on some Sidekicks, Toyotas, Isuzus, and Sammys. True? If so, can some one tell me what years of these vehicles (including other Kicks) would be straight swaps with my 95 Kick?

Ok, if you can all get me straight on this stuff I will be a better human being.

Thanks!
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: ack on March 14, 2006, 06:56:51 PM: Any Samurai ASIN hub will work on a TracKick probably up to '98 -- '96 fer sure.

I slapped a set of Samurai Asins on my '93 'Kick with no problems.Ã‚Â

There is an article at Off-Road.com (do a search at Ack's FAQ in the Forum for Asin. The link is in my signature) about identifying and rebuilding Asin locking hubs.

Hope this helps!

BTW: Anyone want a set of auto-locking hubs?
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: KickTurn on March 14, 2006, 09:15:04 PM: ack, thanks for the link-- that is a great article on hub overhaul, and I printed it.Ã‚Â I'm still unclear on some stuff though:

1)Ã‚Â Is a switch from auto to manual hubs just a matter of six bolts?Ã‚Â Am I missing something?

2)Ã‚Â The FSM shows the auto hubs with different diameter bolts (than the manuals) and no cone washers, so will I need to find cone washers to go with the manual hubs?Ã‚Â And if so would the cone washers be of a different diameter?
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: wildgoody on March 14, 2006, 09:20:24 PM: Same size bolt, but the Auto hubs use regular bolts
with lock washers, the manuals use bolts with cone
washers on them, and I think they could be Allen head
too, but I can't remember off hand, either way it's the
same thread, so yes, it's a matter of 6 bolts.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: zutefisk on March 14, 2006, 09:25:21 PM: 2) One way to get cone washers is to go to a "you pull it" junk yard, pull your own hubs and keep the bolts and washers.

3) The hubs have to match your axles. Samurai, Sidekick, or Tracker. I don't know about the others.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on March 14, 2006, 11:14:54 PM: Sammy Asin hubs do NOT just bolt right up to track/kicks! In a few instances they do, but most of the time they do not! The c-clip that holds the end of the cv shaft into the knuckle sticks out just far enough that sammy hubs will clamp it tight, not allowing any free-movement in the unlocked position, effectively locking the hubs permanently! You need about 1/8" or so more space which is already built into the housing of the Track/kick hubs, but not the sammy hubs. You can use Asin sammy hubs, but you need to make up for that lack of space by using a thick gasket or making a 1/8" spacer plate to go between the hub and mount....
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: wildgoody on March 14, 2006, 11:59:12 PM: Or removing that clip so trail axle swaps are easier ;)
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Rhinoman on March 15, 2006, 04:56:21 AM: Quote from: wildgoody on March 14, 2006, 11:59:12 PM
Or removing that clip so trail axle swaps are easierÃ‚Â ;)

I wouldn't recommend that. Without the circlip the shafts are free to move away from the hub which could leave your wheel bearings exposed to the elements
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: wildgoody on March 15, 2006, 07:40:44 AM: I guess I'm lucky, 275,000 miles, 200,000
with the clips removed and still on my first set
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on March 15, 2006, 11:30:56 AM: Not only expose the bearings to the elements, but under full flex, full lock it might allow the shaft to slip out enough to wedge in crooked and cause all kinds of problems...

On a tracker/sidekick, the cv shaft uses a circlip under the lock-in/out hub to hold the shaft into the knuckle. On a sammy, the end of the axle shaft has a circlip INSIDE the lock-in/out hub(ouside of the base's splines) that you have to pull the cap off the sammy hub to get to before the rest of the hub will come off. Many sammy guys I know just remove that clip and never put it back so that trailside hub swaps are much faster and easier, but I wouldn't recomend running without the clip on a track/kick because there's just too much stuff that moves around on the IFS....
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: ack on March 15, 2006, 02:53:58 PM: Samurai to TracKick compatibility?

Hmmm. I'll have to take a look again.

Until then, I defer to Digger's opinion.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: bandit86 on March 15, 2006, 03:09:30 PM: I have many years wheeling on the original auto hubs, love the factI dont have to get out. I'd keep them
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: KickTurn on March 15, 2006, 08:37:45 PM: Hey, thanks to all who replied-- the responses were very helpful. You guys are a great resource.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on March 15, 2006, 09:15:14 PM: Quote from: ack on March 15, 2006, 02:53:58 PM
Samurai to TracKick compatibility?

Hmmm.Ã‚Â I'll have to take a look again.

Until then, I defer to Digger's opinion.

I speak from first hand experience. The Goblin had Auto hubs and I scored a nice pair of Sammy Asin hubs and tried to swap them on. The only way they would fit is if I removed the circlip or put a thick gasket/spacer between the hub and mount...
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: wolf66 on March 16, 2006, 12:08:56 PM: Calmini says about the aftermarket manual hubs they sell:

"Recommend for any Sidekick or Tracker with a suspension lift to help relieve CV stress."

Do manual hubs relieve cv stress over autos and why?
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: beercheck on March 16, 2006, 12:15:11 PM: No manual hubs, the shafts turn, so the cv's do to. With manual hubs unlocked, the tire/wheel/hub assembly turns, but the shafts don't.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: AJMBLAZER on March 16, 2006, 03:48:02 PM: I have to say I swapped a set of Sammy Aisin hubs onto my '93 Tracker with no problems. They worked just fine for me. I have no clue what year they were off of, I never asked and it was about 4 years ago now.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on March 17, 2006, 04:41:55 AM: Quote from: AJMBLAZER on March 16, 2006, 03:48:02 PM
I have to say I swapped a set of Sammy Aisin hubs onto my '93 Tracker with no problems.Ã‚Â They worked just fine for me.Ã‚Â I have no clue what year they were off of, I never asked and it was about 4 years ago now.

Did you check to see if you still have the circlips and washers holding the cv shafts in place? I would be willing to bet they are missing if the hubs went right on without a thick gasket...
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Rhinoman on March 17, 2006, 04:50:51 AM: Quote from: ack on March 15, 2006, 02:53:58 PM
Samurai to TracKick compatibility?

Hmmm.Ã‚Â I'll have to take a look again.

Until then, I defer to Digger's opinion.

Several other people have reported this problem to me. I have one broken hub so I think I will be trying this swap myself soon.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: RJkick on May 09, 2006, 01:20:15 PM: So a 1/8 inch gasket to fit Sammy hubs on to a TrackKick.Ã‚Â

I assume a TrackKick manual would go on without any gasket or extra effort then?

Seems if you could find manuals for a TrackKick that would be the way to go

Are they both of the same strength or is the Sammy manual hub stronger

I have Autos and have had no real issues but last weekend I was on a mountain top turnaround and it sounded like the hubs disengaged so I had to make my way, in 2 wheel drive, to a flat spot to make sure the hubs were engaged.Ã‚Â Spooky
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: chet on May 09, 2006, 03:44:23 PM: autos have a tendancy to not unlock all the time so you could be running with a locked hub ont he street and not know it casuing the CV's to spin all the time. Also you can put it in 4wd low and crawl along in 2wd with the hubs unlocked (I use this all the time to back up my boat trailer. Much easier to control)
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on May 09, 2006, 08:33:32 PM: Quote from: rjkick on May 09, 2006, 01:20:15 PM

Are they both of the same strength or is the Sammy manual hub stronger

The Asin Sammy hubs have a stainless steel housing and the Track/Kick hubs are alloy. This would make the Sammy hubs stronger(at least on the outside, structurally) than the Track/Kick hubs...
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Maroon Monsoon on May 09, 2006, 09:18:18 PM: Quote from: wolf66 on March 16, 2006, 12:08:56 PM
Calmini says about the aftermarket manual hubs they sell:

"Recommend for any Sidekick or Tracker with a suspension lift to help relieve CV stress."

Do manual hubs relieve cv stress over autos and why?

yes, when you lift your rig, the CV angles are steeper even with the axle drop brackets calmini makes and when you have manual hubs they fully unlock and I don't think an auto hub does

I have no idea how an auto hub works, I am only farmiliar with manual ones. I am pretty sure that an auto hub will not leave it unlocked as much and make the CV rotate more than it needs to putting stress on it

like I said, I'm not 100% sure about what I'm talking about but I think it's at least close to correct if nothign else
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Rhinoman on May 10, 2006, 05:06:52 AM: Quote from: Maroon Monsoon on May 09, 2006, 09:18:18 PM
like I said, I'm not 100% sure about what I'm talking about but I think it's at least close to correct if nothign else

I was assuming that they meant when used as a replacement for the fixed hubs used on some early models.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: RJkick on May 19, 2006, 04:22:43 PM: I was able to get some TrackKick manuals but no washers or nuts. Hopefully the auto hubs have the same nuts but where would I be able to get the cone washers. I know on the Sammy manuals it has cone washers so I assume the trackKick manuals do as well.

Would an autozone or dealer carry the washers or am I relegated to go to the local pick a parts?

They seem like gold to someone without them and wanting to swap
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: RJkick on May 23, 2006, 12:51:41 PM: Do all manual hubs use the cone washers? The circlip on a sidekick should be the same on auto and manual right? So no gasket would be needed either?

Sorry for the density but this is my first swap and I know my wife is going to flip out if I ruin her family off road outing this weekend

Any assistance is greatly appreciated
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on May 23, 2006, 08:48:07 PM: All stock manual hubs use the cone washers. Aftermarket ones like Superwinch or Warn do not. Both Track/kicks and Sammys use the cone washers on the manual hubs.

The circlip on the CV is the same regardless of what hub it had on it, so you can swap Track/kick auto hubs for Track/kick manual hubs without using a thick gasket. But the auto hubs use hex-key style bolts with no cone washers to hold them on and the manual hubs use the 6 sided hex bolts and cone washers in tapered holes. You will need the manual hub's bolts and cone washers to install them correctly. The hex-key bolts from the auto hubs will come loose no matter what you do to them...
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: the_maplebar on May 24, 2006, 10:13:49 AM: Quote from: Digger on May 23, 2006, 08:48:07 PM
You will need the manual hub's bolts and cone washers to install them correctly. The hex-key bolts from the auto hubs will come loose no matter what you do to them...

So is there something special about the manual hubs hex bolts? I just got a set of 90's tracker hubs to put on my 02 Tracker. I made sure to get the cone washers with them, but not the bolts. The bolts on the 02's drive flanges are 10mm hex bolts, not hex-key bolts, is there something I should look out for?
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: RJkick on May 24, 2006, 10:50:33 AM: Thanks digger

I appreciate the assistance

Off to the junkyard search for me
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Digger on May 25, 2006, 08:41:57 AM: Quote from: the_maplebar on May 24, 2006, 10:13:49 AM

So is there something special about the manual hubs hex bolts?Ã‚Â I just got a set of 90's tracker hubs to put on my 02 Tracker.Ã‚Â I made sure to get the cone washers with them, but not the bolts.Ã‚Â The bolts on the 02's drive flanges are 10mm hex bolts, not hex-key bolts, is there something I should look out for?

As far as I know there is nothing special about the bolts themselves. As long as the threads match and the bolts you use are the right length and hardness, they should work.
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: the_maplebar on May 25, 2006, 09:24:26 AM: The hardness of a bolt would determine how much torque it can withstand right?

My manual with the Drive Flanges says 36.5 ft-lbs
Autozone (Haynes?) for TracKicks says 18 ft-lbs
Aisin rebuild .pdf say 23 ft-lbs

Does any of that match the factory manual for TracKicks?
Is my reasoning correct, so my stock bolts should be fine?
Title: Re: manual hubs: what I think . . .I think
Post by: Rhinoman on May 25, 2006, 12:33:17 PM: My FSM says 14.5- 21.5 lb/ft