ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: kozaz on March 15, 2006, 10:59:21 AM
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Ok,
I broke down and bought a 97 2wd Tracker last night. ;D
Looks like a 4x4 conversion is in the future, till then, it will get a rear locker and stay on stock tires. I figure this would be the most affordable wheeling solution until I get all my 4x4 conversion parts together.
I was thinking of going with an Anvil, but I want more gearing options (Deeper than 5.83). And the Ford 9" fits the bill.
The plan:
Find a Ford 9" rear axle
Narrow it to fit the front
I could measure a stock front 4x4 third and use that for my measurements, but I want to be able to run the same size Toyota CVs on both sides.ÂÂ
This is why I need the Anvil Measurements, so I can narrow the Ford 9" accordingly.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/kozaz/Zuks/Trackers/Tracker%20Mods/Anvil-AxlefsMod.jpg)
I would like the following measurements of the Anvil:
1. CV Mounting Surface to CV Mounting Surface
2. If possible, Drivers side CV Mounting Surface to Center of Anvil Housing
3. If possible, Passenger side CV Mounting Surface to Center of Anvil Housing
4. If possible, Top Mount (Center of Mounting Hole) to Center of CV Axle Housing
The above 2, 3 measurements are to get the offset, I may not need these since I could get the Passenger Side Offset measurement form a stock Diff, plus I do not think these measurements are not to criticle (as long As I'm willing to adjust Motor Mounts, if the housing is to close towards the drivers side). This would help aid me in making sure the 3rd offset enough (Towards the passenger side) to make sure the stock front Driveshaft fits.ÂÂ
Measurement 4 is kinda of hard to explain, it's so I can get the correct drop so the CVs line up with a 3" suspension lift.
IF anybody has any good pics of Side, Top, Front/Rear of the Anvil (Not installed) with the Drive Flanges installed, please post them! I would like to use them to draw the measurements I'm looking for!
Any info would be greatly appreciated!
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Sounds like a big job, but not the first time i've heard of using a 9" for this job.
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A nine inch wont fit in the anvil configuration. it would have to be moved tward the center at least 3 inches. That would make it hit the oilpan. Stan built his totally centered. Its a lot easier to center mount it but the engine needs to be raised considerably, at least 4 inches. Lots of fabbing involved. If your not planning on 37s or bigger then I dont see the need.
Mike
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I was hoping you would chime in Mike, I have more questions now. ;D
The main reason for the ford nine was because a 5sp with 5.83s should put 31s close to stock.  I would like to be able to gear 33s back to stock, and it looked like the ford nine 6.00 or 6.14 gears would work nicely.
I was going to do a suspension lift, but in light of what you said, maybe a 3 inch body lift is in order. Then I would have plenty of room to lift the motor. and I will not have to worry about camber or cv angles.
OR....
Could I just cut and lower the frame 3inches like you did to the Rockstar and raise the motor mounts back up 3inches? Again, I assume this would not effect Camber or CV Angels and the motor would be place back to stock motor height keeping the COG close to stock.
NOTE:
I was planning on extending the front frame 2 to 3 inches to keep fender trimming to a minimum (This might help clear the oil pan. Then, I could also off-center the ford 9 as much as it will allow to help clear the oil pan to.
I wanted more gear options, in case I decided to go with bigger tires down the road.
Thanks again Mike for your help!
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sounds like a helluva lot of work for 33's. Why not take the easy route and do a SAS, and be done.
The ford 9" would be overkill to be able to use the gears. I heard the ford 8" is of very similar design, and smaller, but i'm not sure about the gear selection. I think it still has the extra pinion bearing too. I was planning on front and rear ford 8"s about a year ago and doing a long travel IFS deal with a custom setup. I put it on the backburner...
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Actually Kozaz I think it would be a cool project. I have also been toying with the idea in my frustration of not being able to get 5.62 or 5.83 gears. I'm on 31"s now and wont go bigger with my IFS rig until I get lower gearing. Good luck if you decide to go ahead with this.
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OR....
Could I just cut and lower the frame 3inches like you did to the Rockstar and raise the motor mounts back up 3inches? Again, I assume this would not effect Camber or CV Angels and the motor would be place back to stock motor height keeping the COG close to stock.
NOTE:
I was planning on extending the front frame 2 to 3 inches to keep fender trimming to a minimum (This might help clear the oil pan. Then, I could also off-center the ford 9 as much as it will allow to help clear the oil pan to.
I wanted more gear options, in case I decided to go with bigger tires down the road.
Thanks again Mike for your help!
This is the route I would go even if you dont build the nine. I would at least add sone 1 inch coil spacers to get a touch of suspension lift.
Mike
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I like the idea, I was wondering about getting a nice axle like that in the front of my GV in the future. Hope it goes well, even if a 9 is overkill, better that than underdoing it I think
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If you really want 5.83 then why don't you just buy a front R&P from Calmini and put a 9" in the rear with a matching ratio. Considering you are only talking about 31's or 33's I don't see a problem.
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The Ford 9" is not going in for overkill. It's going in because of the varity of gears available.
This would make allow me to change out Ring and Pinions for a 27" tall tire all the way to a 38" (5 speed Tranny), and still have stock performance. Granted there is a little lost because of the wieght/mass of rubber to turn.
Basically you get a vehicle that has stock performance to get you to/from the trail on 33 or larger tires, then add your Transfer case gears and you have your crawling performance.
I've seen the following for Sammy Transfer case (I would need to install a Kicker1):
4.16:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 12.2%.
5.14:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 18.3%.
6.50:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 20.2%.
But, I have never seen anybody figure out the Math to show what tires/Ring Pinions bring the HIGH RANGE back to stock configuration gearing with certain size tires. If anybody can help me with this math I might not need the Ford nine. What confuses me, is they state a high range reduction, but do not provide the High ratios, (High Normal is 1:1), does 12.2% = 1:12 or does 18.2 = 1:18?
Here are some of the numbers I was running with Ford 9 Gearing. (All this info was accumulated (with allot more info) during my quest for a IRS)
For stock sidekick/tracker (without sammy t-case).
Tracker Manual Tranny:
5.83(clamini gears) X 27"(stock tire size) / 5.12(stock r&p's) = 30.74 Good for 30-31" tires. (Tracker gears / Tracker Stock Tires / Tracker Manual Stock Gears)
Some Options for the Above Formula
5.67 X 27 / 5.12 = 29.900 (Ford gears)
5.83 X 27 / 5.12 = 30.744ÂÂ
6.00 X 27 / 5.12 = 31.640ÂÂ
6.14 X 27 / 5.12 = 32.379ÂÂ
6.20 X 27 / 5.12 = 32.695ÂÂ
6.33 X 27 / 5.12 = 33.380ÂÂ
6.50 X 27 / 5.12 = 34.277ÂÂ
6.66 X 27 / 5.12 = 35.121ÂÂ
7.00 X 27 / 5.12 = 36.914ÂÂ
7.16 X 27 / 5.12 = 37.758
7.33 X 27 / 5.12 = 38.654ÂÂ
Tracker Auto tranny:
5.83(clamini gears) X 27"(stock tire size) / 4.62(stock r&p's) = 34.071 Good for 34" tires. (Tracker gears / Tracker Stock Tires / Tracker Auto Stock Gears)
5.12 X 27 / 4.62 = 29.922 Good for 29-30" tires (Tracker gears / Tracker Stock Tires / Tracker Auto Stock Gears)
Some options for the above formula
5.14 X 27 / 4.62 = 30.038 (Ford Gears)
5.29 X 27 / 4.62 = 30.915
5.37 X 27 / 4.62 = 31.383
5.43 X 27 / 4.62 = 31.733
5.50 X 27 / 4.62 = 32.142
5.57 X 27 / 4.62 = 32.552
5.67 X 27 / 4.62 = 33.136
5.83 X 27 / 4.62 = 34.071
6.00 X 27 / 4.62 = 35.065
6.14 X 27 / 4.62 = 35.883
6.20 X 27 / 4.62 = 36.234
The other problem with some of the other axles out there is narrowing them. Basically I need to be as close as possible to the Ring/Pinion Housing. The Danas, 14bolt, Toys, and some of the Ford Nines all have supports built into the axle housings to help strengthen the Axle Tube/Pinion Housing Joint. This support keeps me from narrowing it much as I need, or at least it would cause more fab work than I'm willing to do.
In my research, I've found that the Ford 9" not only has all the gears, but the early "banjo" Housing has the weaker (Thinner) supports. See Pic in Link Below:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/kozaz/Zuks/Trackers/Tracker%20Mods/Ford9Ad.jpg
Here is an example of a Banjo Ford Nine Narrowed.ÂÂ
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/kozaz/Zuks/Trackers/Tracker%20Mods/ifs9-1.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/kozaz/Zuks/Trackers/Tracker%20Mods/ifs9-2.jpg)
Not only does the Banjo Nine fit my narrowing criteria and Gear options, it also has ALOT of after market support, such as narrowing axles and Pinion Input Flange Adapters.
OR....
Could I just cut and lower the frame 3inches like you did to the Rockstar and raise the motor mounts back up 3inches? Again, I assume this would not effect Camber or CV Angels and the motor would be place back to stock motor height keeping the COG close to stock.
NOTE:
I was planning on extending the front frame 2 to 3 inches to keep fender trimming to a minimum (This might help clear the oil pan. Then, I could also off-center the ford 9 as much as it will allow to help clear the oil pan to.
I wanted more gear options, in case I decided to go with bigger tires down the road.
Thanks again Mike for your help!
This is the route I would go even if you dont build the nine. I would at least add sone 1 inch coil spacers to get a touch of suspension lift.
Mike
Then I will seriously start looking into Dropping the Frame like the Rockstar (Thanks Mike) with stock Diff in place.
What I will probably do, is convert the Tracker to 4wd using stock parts first. That way I can get it through Arizona MVD easier, since the title will change from 2wd to 4wd.
Then start seeing how much available clearance for the Ford9".
If you really want 5.83 then why don't you just buy a front R&P from Calmini and put a 9" in the rear with a matching ratio. Considering you are only talking about 31's or 33's I don't see a problem.
I was under the impression that the 5.83 did not bring the Gearing back to stock for 31 or larger tires. (Also did not work with my calculations above unless I had a Auto)
sounds like a helluva lot of work for 33's. Why not take the easy route and do a SAS, and be done.
The ford 9" would be overkill to be able to use the gears. I heard the ford 8" is of very similar design, and smaller, but i'm not sure about the gear selection. I think it still has the extra pinion bearing too. I was planning on front and rear ford 8"s about a year ago and doing a long travel IFS deal with a custom setup. I put it on the backburner...
SAS still would have the gearing problem. Unless I spend lots of money on a custom ford 9 front axle. The Ford 8.8 does not have deep enough gears. Maybe if the front goes well, I might get the bug to spend some serious money and do a Ford 9 IRS for giggles.
Actually Kozaz I think it would be a cool project. I have also been toying with the idea in my frustration of not being able to get 5.62 or 5.83 gears. I'm on 31"s now and wont go bigger with my IFS rig until I get lower gearing. Good luck if you decide to go ahead with this.
I'm at the same crossroads, why go big tires and have a miserable drive to/from the trail. I also plan on NOT getting a tow vehicle.
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seems like the newer "non-banjo" one would be great in the rear. I really like the idea of a narrowed pre 77 9 in the front.
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I really like the idea of a narrowed pre 77 9 in the front.
Thats the one I would use for IRS. ;D
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I really like the idea of a narrowed pre 77 9 in the front.
Thats the one I would use for IRS. ;D
you are doing irs? what diff would you use up front then? I thought you were doing a non-banjo pre 77 up front. assumed solid rear. bad to assume I guess
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you are doing irs? what diff would you use up front then? I thought you were doing a non-banjo pre 77 up front. assumed solid rear. bad to assume I guess
Not Doing IRS, if I did, I was planning on using both Banjo Types (Pre 77) because they allow you to make the axle Tubes Narrower.
The current plan, is convert my 2wd to 4wd with stock parts.
Upgrade to Toy CVs and rear CALMIN Heat Treated Axles.
Then I might go with 31's, but maybe only 30's with 5.83 gears. (I'm still on the fence for stock performance/Gear/Tire Hieght).
If I do put a Ford 9 in the front, I will put a Ford 9 soild axle in the rear, which would probably be a post 77 because I believe the ford bronco had a WMS-to-WMS Measurement within 1-2 inches of Hagens Front Wided Mod(with CALMINI suspension installed).
The Ford 9s will only go in if I decide to go with 33s. Unless, I can figure out the Gearing/TireHieght using a second Sammy Case (Kicker1). If I can verify the HIGH Range Gearing, this would eliminate the need to going with a Ford 9. See Quote below for reference.
I've seen the following for Sammy Transfer case (I would need to install a Kicker1):
4.16:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 12.2%.
5.14:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 18.3%.
6.50:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 20.2%.
But, I have never seen anybody figure out the Math to show what tires/Ring Pinions bring the HIGH RANGE back to stock configuration gearing with certain size tires. If anybody can help me with this math I might not need the Ford nine. What confuses me, is they state a high range reduction, but do not provide the High ratios, (High Normal is 1:1), does 12.2% = 1:12 or does 18.2 = 1:18?
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Ok I did some more researching and found out that the stock Suzuki Samurai Tranfercase has a High Range of 1.4:1.
Found the info in this link: http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,21002.0.html (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,21002.0.html)
Gearing For stock sidekick/tracker with sammy t-case installed instead of the sidekick/tracker t-case.
A sammy transfer case is 1.4:1 in high range
OTT Kicker I with the sammy T-case and it's 1.4:1 High range.
Kick T-case High range is 1:1 Add an OTT adapter and marry a sammy case:
Stock sammy t-case = 1.409
Version Using 5.12 Gears
Stock sammy t-case is 1.409
5.125 (axle ratio 5speed) x .409 = 2.096125
2.096125 + 5.125 = 7.221125 (High range rear axle ratio)
7.22:1 (High range rear axle ratio) x 27 (Stock Tire) / 5.12 (Stock 5spd Tracker Gears) = 38.080 Size Tire
Version Using 4.625 Gears
4.625 (axle ratio,2dr auto 1.6L 8v) x .409 = 1.891625
1.891625 + 4.625 = 6.516625 (High range rear axle ratio)
6.51:1 (High range rear axle ratio) x 27 (Stock Tire) / 5.12 (Stock 5spd Tracker Gears) = 34.330 Size Tire
Version using 4.30 Gears
4.30 (axle ratio,Non overdrive 2 dr auto 1.6L 16v) x .409 = 1.7587
1.7587 + 4.30 = 6.0587
6.05:1 (High range rear axle ratio) x 27 (Stock Tire) / 5.12 (Stock 5spd Tracker Gears) = 31.904 Size Tire
Not sure on my math, but this would allow a person to upgrade from 30/31" Tires (using 4.30 Diff Gears) to 33/34" Tires (using 4.62 Diff Gears) or 35/36" Tires (using 5.12 Diff Gears).
In a wierd way, I think I might have just did the opposite by gearing high (Lower Numerical Gear Ratio) for larger tires! ;D
This represents using stock Sammy Transfer Case Low Range Gears. If you switch to the Crawler gears such as the following:ÂÂ
4.16:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 12.2%.
5.14:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 18.3%.
6.50:1 ROCKCRAWLER GEARSET This kit provides a high range reduction of 20.2%.
Then the High Range will be even lower, because I assume the High Range is greater than 1.4:1. I really need to find out the High Range ratio on the above Rockcrawler Gearsets.
Hope my math is correct? Please let me know, if you see any errors.
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You math wizards are too smart for me. ::)