ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: JDMCRX on March 28, 2006, 04:07:28 PM
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Ok guys
Its time i am making my first set of headers for the GV V6 2.5 with merge collectors.
Ill be posting pics up this week with some progress.
BTW who would be interested in a set with downpipes
josh
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Do you know the exhaust valves size and exhaust port size?
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im gonna messure the exhaust port i think 1.5 primaries will do well as we rev to 6500. Im gonna dyno the truck before i put the headers on and go from there.
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Any progress?
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oh man, I want to do the same. I would buy except I have the stuff to make them other than a bender and I like the pride of making my own stuff but if I happen to actually meet someone with a GV other than me I'll tell them about it
can't wait to see, how are you making sure the lengths of the tubes are correct? that's the main thing stopping me from doing it.. that and I odn't have the time or something else to drive while making them
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To design a header properly you need to know a number of variables that I haven't been able to find out yet. It can be done with some basics but ideally knowing the cam specs will optimise it. Be nice to get a degree wheel and dial guage on one of these to get some measurements like valve opening and closing timing, duration and lift. Also need to know the distance from the back of the exhaust valve to the exhaust manifold. Also does anyone know the valve sizes and con rod lengths?
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Wow cj, that's a lot of questions?!? When we build them for our drag race motors/cars the most important thing for us is getting the tubes as close to the same length as possible and making sure the tubes join at the collector in the firing order so the exhaust will create a swirling pattern to help speed up velocity. Never really took all of your concerns into the design, we've had good luck with our headers on some of our small block chevy's pumping close to 950 hp naturally aspirated.
We have always bought pre-bent "j" bends and sliced and diced them.
Have fun JDMCRX!!! ;)
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940 HP N/A....sounds like alot of fun 8)
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Yoak,
With a pro-stock pick-up clutch and tranny and a 9000 rpm launch....hell yah it's fun!! ;D
Will pm you a video in the next couple of weeks, car is almost ready to launch!!
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Thats awesome, im looking forward to seeing that vido.
Makes my Turbo Z seem boring now lol
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Wow cj, that's a lot of questions?!? When we build them for our drag race motors/cars the most important thing for us is getting the tubes as close to the same length as possible and making sure the tubes join at the collector in the firing order so the exhaust will create a swirling pattern to help speed up velocity. Never really took all of your concerns into the design, we've had good luck with our headers on some of our small block chevy's pumping close to 950 hp naturally aspirated.
We have always bought pre-bent "j" bends and sliced and diced them.
Have fun JDMCRX!!! ;)
Not everything I was asking about was for the headers but the cam is really the brain of the engine and designing your header around that does make a real difference. Getting the primaries to be equal lengths is a given and don't forget that the distance from the exhaust valve to the exhaust manifold is part of the primary length. The Collecter is actually a pretty important part of the header design too. Geting that to be the right dia. is worthwhile, the length is not quite as critical. On one of these engines for general use I reckon making the primaries (not incl. the amount in the head) somewhere in the 1 & 1/8" to 1 & 1/4" I.D. and about 34" to 36" long will get you in the ballpark. The collecter I.D. of 1 & 3/4" to 1 & 7/8" and about 12" long would be good for each bank. This would be a reasonable compromise that would work on the 2.0, 2.5 and 2.7 V6 engines and it is my understanding that the right design should fit them all as the pipes of the 2.0 and the 2.5 are supposedly the same part number and I have also been told but have not been able to confirm this yet that the heads and cams are the same across the various engines..
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Trust me ive got alot of time and des lookin into it. Im gonna build them with merge collectors. All i have to say is take a stock manifold hold it up lol. 4 tubes welded to a flange would flow more lol.
josh
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Trust me ive got alot of time and des lookin into it. Im gonna build them with merge collectors. All i have to say is take a stock manifold hold it up lol. 4 tubes welded to a flange would flow more lol.
josh
I don't disagree that the stock setup sucks big time but then again I have just recently heard of someone who had some made up for the 2.0 V6 and didn't notice much difference which is my point of designing them right and the gains will be there.
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I can't get over how wierd it is that these rigs have THREE catalytic converters. I kept a 3rd on with my custom exhuast but at least it's high flow. I really want to make the 1st 2 high flow and ditch the 3rd. are you doing this? I don't think the motor will run properly without the first 2 cats because there is an o2 sensor on both sides of each.. that's right.. FOUR o2 sensors.. goofy stuff.. and I used to think it was wierd that my V6 was only 2.5 litre.. I was just getting started into learning about these truely unique rigs
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First attemp Will be to built a set shorties with the EGR port and merge collectors. Move the the primary o2s down stream to behind the one cat. Or we will use o2 simulators to not trip the ecu.
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JDMCRX, Even thou this is only my second post here, I work at http://www.ssheaders.com/.
One of the headers we make are for the Lexus. Which also has a very restictive and short factory manifold.
If you go to the web-site, click on the link for "Header 101". It should help you with more than just the basics. Also click on the Online Store to see pics of the Lexus Headers.
After looking at pics of the 2.7 V-6 manifolds from the 4 to 6 engine swap thread here.
I will give this 30-second analysis. ;)
#1. Don't bother making a classic 4-into-1 header type header bolted to the Cats.
The primary tubes will be so short that they won't help the engine breathe much untill about 10,000+ RPM!
4-to-1's are great for Racing but not for the Street.
Classic 3-to-1 headers for a V-6 Truck would need to have at least 32" inch long primary tubes to work. 36" would be even better. Too bad that's well past where even the Primary Cat is. :o
It is much easyer to make and fit a Tri-Y like our Lexus one.
#2 Don't take off the Cats.
Those first two cats are called Pre-Cats. When the engine is cold they electricly heat up and burn off hydrocarbons to help the truck run clean untill the Primary Cat gets hot enough to work.
By-Passing them with that O2 simulater is hit or miss. (mostly miss, now or later)
Better to just keep 'em.
#3 Yes, We are willing make them, IF....
You can scrounge up 25 others (Minimum) who want to do a Group-Buy, get a GV in our shop to work on and find someone to ram-rod the whole Group-Buy and send in the order.
This is how the Lexus headers got started.
Otherwise we will only make them as a one-off custom. ($$$$)
That's what I plan to do with my 4cly Tracker on my own time.
Good luck,
TR
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02 simulators? I want in on this. what do they do and where do you get them? sounds like a good idea. would you have to tune your efi to get those to work?
man, I can't wait to see your headers!
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=o2+simulators&btnG=Google+Search
They send fake O2 sensor signals to the ECU so you don't have to have working O2 sensors (ie. removed a catalytic converter). They are illegal if you have to pass emissions.
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screw the hippes and thier crappy emissions tests.. o2 sensor simulators are gnarly it seems. catalytic converters are really restrictive so those are a good idea
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O2 sensors are hit and miss. Some people have good luck with them and others have none.
Remember that they're illegal on a street driven vehicles. Just like removing your cat if you're caught doing so it's a FEDERAL fine. A not cheap fine either, a couple grand last I knew (late '90's). I'm no tree hugger but I figure if the vehicle was designed to work a certain way, especially something like this that has to do with the computer controlled functions of your engine, better safe than sorry.
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O2 sensors are hit and miss. Some people have good luck with them and others have none.
Remember that they're illegal on a street driven vehicles. Just like removing your cat if you're caught doing so it's a FEDERAL fine. A not cheap fine either, a couple grand last I knew (late '90's). I'm no tree hugger but I figure if the vehicle was designed to work a certain way, especially something like this that has to do with the computer controlled functions of your engine, better safe than sorry.
I think here in oregon there aren't very strict emissions laws. but I could be wrong. I agree with better safe than sorry with the o2 sensors because of all that computer stuff, that's the problem with efi.
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I think AJMBLAZER is right, it's a federal fine. So it doesn't matter if you have to pass emissions in your state, it's not street legal.
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I know it's a federal fine. Messing with emissions stuff, which your o2 sensor(s) should be considered part of because of the part they play in tuning your engine for best emissions, is a federal fine if you run across a cop or inspection shop that wants to report that sorta stuff. Friend of mine got in some trouble back in '96 with his big, lifted Chevy K10 and the cops pulled out the rule book. They slapped him with a federal fine for about $2500 that set him back A LOT after you include the towing, impound fee, and cost of a new exhaust system.
Keep your engine happy and safe. Contrary to what some people might think you can in fact make performance and keep your vehicle emissions legal. Your locality might not test and inspect vehicles but emissions is a FEDERAL law so it applies everywhere.
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I know it's a federal fine. Messing with emissions stuff, which your o2 sensor(s) should be considered part of because of the part they play in tuning your engine for best emissions, is a federal fine if you run across a cop or inspection shop that wants to report that sorta stuff. Friend of mine got in some trouble back in '96 with his big, lifted Chevy K10 and the cops pulled out the rule book. They slapped him with a federal fine for about $2500 that set him back A LOT after you include the towing, impound fee, and cost of a new exhaust system.
Keep your engine happy and safe. Contrary to what some people might think you can in fact make performance and keep your vehicle emissions legal. Your locality might not test and inspect vehicles but emissions is a FEDERAL law so it applies everywhere.
thanks, I'll keep that in mind and probably not hack catalytic converters off things like my friends do. Really appreciated to know it's sucha big fine... those greedy environmentalists
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Car Craft did an artical testing Cats a few years back and found that hi-flow after market cats cost 0(!) HP compared to a straight pipe.
The only gain was in ditching the factory one. About 5 HP on 305ci Camaro IIRC.
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so high flow cats dont' bother the power? nice. I am glad my secondary cat is high flow now
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Hi-flow cats are fine and if you are concerned, you can always go one size bigger than the pipe you are running.
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I've heard that's a good idea with mufflers. I like the idea for cats as well. I am not too worried about it but sounds like a good idea anyway. I am pretty sure the one size up for mufflers is only for open chambre.. doesn't make sense to do that for something like a magnaflow or borla
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Car Craft did an artical testing Cats a few years back and found that hi-flow after market cats cost 0(!) HP compared to a straight pipe.
The only gain was in ditching the factory one. About 5 HP on 305ci Camaro IIRC.
Except in Kaliforniastan where you aren't allowed to replace the Cats unless it isn't working right :'(
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Most After market Cats MFGs only make few size biscuqets(sp?) and just change the size of the inlet and outlet pipes welded on. Most are rated by CI of the engine, as long it can be used for a 200CI+ engine, you can't go wrong.
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Car Craft did an artical testing Cats a few years back and found that hi-flow after market cats cost 0(!) HP compared to a straight pipe.
The only gain was in ditching the factory one. About 5 HP on 305ci Camaro IIRC.
Except in Kaliforniastan where you aren't allowed to replace the Cats unless it isn't working right :'(
Tell me about it. They are moving toword a total ban on car MODs >:(
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Maplebar...doh...man...trying to remember the name of the place I used when I lived in San Diego. Some place down in El Cajon that did a lot of custom work. Did really good work for me. The deal with the cat is that they can replace it if you are past a certain mileage OR your cat is clogged...or they think it is defective or getting so. So they can almost always come up with a reason to replace a cat...and then simply justify it by saying the cat was going bad. As long as a cat goes back on to replace the OEM unit, high flow or not, it is essentially legal.
That said the testing I have seen is that high flow cats offer minimal, if any, gain over modern cats. Older brick style cats flowed like crap but the modern honeycomb ones in use since the mid-90s flow very well. I put a CarSound (Magnaflow) cat on my Tracker simply because it was cheap and quality, I doubt I saw much gain from it over an OEM replacement cat.
Those bills will only become laws if you guys do not get out and vote against it. There are enough car enthusiasts in California, of any political party, that would be adversely affected by a potential law as stupid as this that I doubt it could pass if enough outrage was shown. Hot Rodders, boy-racers-rice rockets, offroaders, rock crawlers, mall cruisers, restoration guys, shops, businesses, fab shops, etc etc etc etc.
Michigan had a bill to do something similar and also ban "derelict vehicles" (IE-your parts vehicle or project that you do not keep in a garage) in visible site about 4 years ago. This is Michigan...you would not beleive the groundswell of anger and outrage that came up from the masses. It never even got to the floor of the house other than as a sidenote that the sponsor was withdrawing it.
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Thanks man for the advice. Ill be dynoing the truck before and after. As for the tubes we are doing long tubes which will be lenght wise dunno yet. the primary cats are being removed. Ive done headers on other vehicles. The O2 sensor we may move behind the main car which will be a Carsound 2.5 Round.
As for getting 25 guys to buy them good luck on that. these trucks are still to new for people to mod the tits out of.
We are in the mits of mounting a Eaton 78 blower on the GV. I have been looking at it and ill be doing the fabing out this soon.
Pics will be on my site.
Josh
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Man alot of good info there.
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glad it could help.
When I talked to Loren yesterday about these, he figured that it would be best to go with the three cly on each side starting with 1 1/2" primarys 'w'ing into a 1 3/4" secondary pipe with the end expanded out to the pre-cat size.
Harbor Freight has some pipe expanders that will make the smooth transition from one size to the next.
If your going to get rid of the pre-cats take a look at our Tundra header for ideas.
Steve
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We are in the mits of mounting a Eaton 78 blower on the GV. I have been looking at it and ill be doing the fabing out this soon.
Pics will be on my site.
Josh
Sounds cool...can't wait to see more. I would have thought that the Eaton M45 would have been a nice one to use on these. What are the specs on the 78?
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Maplebar...doh...man...trying to remember the name of the place I used when I lived in San Diego. Some place down in El Cajon that did a lot of custom work. Did really good work for me. The deal with the cat is that they can replace it if you are past a certain mileage OR your cat is clogged...or they think it is defective or getting so. So they can almost always come up with a reason to replace a cat...and then simply justify it by saying the cat was going bad. As long as a cat goes back on to replace the OEM unit, high flow or not, it is essentially legal.
I figured that was probably the case, but you would have to have a shop that is willing to jump through the hoops. I'm out in Santee now, about 5 minutes from El Cajon, the exhaust isn't going to be done anytime soon but when I do get around to a good recomendation is always welcome if you happen to remember the name of that place.
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God, it was the name of a guy...I think...Fred's? Something like that. :P
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a blower on a GV? can't wait, you are freaking awesome dude
it will show those wiener supercharged X terra's what's up and then some!
can you believe those only get 210 HP stock with a super charger and the displacement they have? I think the 06 GV has like 180 naturally aspirated with a tiny 2.7 litre... suzuki just puts a nissan motor that's bigger and forced induction to shame I guess... the 2.5 with a blower will be really gnarly
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... I think the 06 GV has like 180 naturally aspirated with a tiny 2.7 litre...
That's about right for a Mazda K-series with VRIS, though they went only to 2.5 litres. Suzuki may have had them alter the cams to give more low-down torque, which is nice in an off-roader.
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http://mrspeed.biz/SuperchargerKits.aspx 8)
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The Suzuki engine was made by Mazda?? Thats interesting.
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I find that hard to believe. AS the KL series is totaly different. They run one cam gear with a gear drive for reverse on the cam gear. The J25 runs a chain on the secondary cam.
Anyhow. It will be a custom made intake plenium and so forth. Im gonna be running SMT for extra fuel and we will see im shoting for 300whp which i think will not be a problem or i may just got twin T25 turbos or TDO5A.
Who knows. I got to finsih up two lifts first
josh
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I find that hard to believe. AS the KL series is totaly different. They run one cam gear with a gear drive for reverse on the cam gear. The J25 runs a chain on the secondary cam.
No question there are differences, but the basic engine is the same, and the development of the 2.5 must have drawn on the stretch from KF to KL.
I'm not sure this article is entirely correct, but the basic history is there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_H_engine
It's also interesting that the description of the 2.7's new induction system sounds like an attempt to describe VRIS without saying "VRIS".
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I think it was cj and our friends from Oz that noticed the 2.0L V6 was a modified Mazda V6. The 2.5L and 2.7L were developed from it.
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I think it was cj and our friends from Oz that noticed the 2.0L V6 was a modified Mazda V6. The 2.5L and 2.7L were developed from it.
Yes, it was a joint venture with Mazda but Suzuki went with chains and no VRIS.
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Hey guys
In the new house just unpacking. Got to cut the 2 lifts up this week then next week i can start up the header fabs.
I got 3 sets to make but 1st set we will see what happens
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new here got a 2003 2.5 GV also my first post. very interesting read :)
anyway anymore progress on this IE: headers & turbo ?
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Don't expect to hear much, JD's in hot water with several people lately. Over promising on products and under delivering. ::)
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Don't expect to hear much, JD's in hot water with several people lately. Over promising on products and under delivering. ::)
ahha got yah thanks for that :thumbup
you guys got a trader rating on members to go by for dealings or a black/caution list ?
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a trader rating on members to go by for dealings or a black/caution list ?
Not a bad idea. ;)
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No trader rating on these forums but there's a pretty big nasty gram going about him on the for sale forum. Interesting read if you want to.
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Hope he has a damn good excuse and makes good on his promises. He seemed to be a good guy. Hope it was just a run of bad luck or something. Maybe he got put in the clingk who knows ::).
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Read the thread...it's fishier and fishier...lack of moral standards if you ask me... ::)
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AJMBLAZER i'll check it out.
thanks for the heads upguys its nice to be informed before the horse has bolted.
if you have time check out my mates link in my sig. A1 guy , top prices if it aint listed just ask.
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Wow I saw that post i got spacers and lift from josh while ago and i bought another set this week. I know he did have a problem with getting ripped off for 2300 us on a shop car.
Im not to sure abot him being a scammer. But 5 months is a bit long. I talk ed him about kits and he did not wanna make any untill like 2 weeks ago.
Anyways any word on the headers
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Headers are still in the works finaly got my tig welder after getting scammed for $2000.
The flanges are done we are gonna bring the truck to get dynoed the day before they are installed then bring it the next day or a following day when the air temps are the same
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This is a non merge collector this is the most comon on cheap street headers.
(http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0304_merg03_z.jpg)
This is a merge collector notice the devider
(http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0304_merg04_z.jpg)
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hope to see some wicked pipes on that thing soon, can't wait
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Well we are building 3 sets one for me, my dads XL7 and CE1_2NR truck.
I have the collectors made by a friend and i have a huge order of manderal bends.
Ill be posting pics in the next 2 weeks.
Ive gotten a few emails on the headers. As for making more sets Im not sure if i will be doing so. Im a socalled scammer as 2 people call me. So to get things stright i do this for fun not a business. If i did this as a business i would be broke.
But pics of the progress will start soon
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Hey guys old thread but everything is at my house i will be starting the fabing of the first set of GV headers next friday the 14th.
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nice, can't wait to see this actually happen. one of these days I should do headers on my GV. I bet it would unleash a whole barn full of ponies
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Well im just waiting on the two head flanges ill be getting on wed. Power will be pretty good im thinking 15-20whp easy. these stock manifold are 1.25 inside diameter and very restrictive.
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yea, they are probalby the crappiest looking manifolds I have ever seen in my life. not to mention these things have 3 catalytic converters when they are stock, mine only has two now though. my secondary cat was a high flow of some sort, but even after removing that I thought I felt a bit more throttle response. not much though. I imagine those two stock ones right off the manifolds are choking the crap out of it though
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Well biggest upgrade i noticed was the 2.5" Down pipe vs that 1.50-1.75 POS front pipe.
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Well guys got all my parts today I will be posting some more pics tomorrow. These are one offs and so far i am at 800 in material. So making these i will have to see. So far i can get 30-32" primaries i will see what i can get tomorrow
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/JBAUTO/DSC00759.jpg)
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sweet, finally getting this done. Keep us updated. $800 is allot of money for material.