ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: cj on February 08, 2005, 02:32:12 PM
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Hey Wild,
I know you've been looking at doing a Full Floater rear and was wondering if you knew some answers to a few questions. I like the idea and was wondering how involved it would be to make it happen. I figured either the Kick or the Sammy spindle and hub assy. could be used, is this right? This would mean rear disc brakes at the same time, just need to sort out the caliper mounts to deal with an e-brake. Is the Kick spindle I.D. the same or larger than the Sammy? Could it handle a Dana 27 spline shaft? I already have an ARB in the rear so would just need to change the sidegears. Are there any suitable length 27 spline shafts that could be cut and re-splined on the other end? Are the Kick spindle bolt holes the same as the axle tube bolt holes? Have you figured out the axle shaft lengths? Would the long side shaft be long enough to be used on the short side? I figure the Sammy long side rear shaft should be OK if it is cut and resplined to suit. This would be the cheaper way to go than full custom shafts at the moment and a full floater is like an improvement to shaft strength anyway by reducing the load. I know it's a lot of questions but as I'm looking at going rear discs anyway I thought at the same time I could improve the rear end and it would be better if I ever break a rear shaft.
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Hey Wild,
I know you've been looking at doing a Full Floater rear and was wondering if you knew some answers to a few questions. I like the idea and was wondering how involved it would be to make it happen. I figured either the Kick or the Sammy spindle and hub assy. could be used, is this right?
Yes, I want to use a Track/Kick front spindle
This would mean rear disc brakes at the same time, just need to sort out the caliper mounts to deal with an e-brake.
E-brake can be had from a rear Maxima caliper,
mounts need to be designed of 1/4-3/8" plate
Is the Kick spindle I.D. the same or larger than the Sammy? Could it handle a Dana 27 spline shaft?
I dont know about the size, but I do think a 27
spline will fit
I already have an ARB in the rear so would just need to change the sidegears. Are there any suitable length 27 spline shafts that could be cut and re-splined on the other end?
Unknown, but you should be able to find
open stock axle shafts for cutting to proper length
Are the Kick spindle bolt holes the same as the axle tube bolt holes?
No
Have you figured out the axle shaft lengths?
No
Would the long side shaft be long enough to be used on the short side? I figure the Sammy long side rear shaft should be OK if it is cut and resplined to suit.
Sammy long side yes, Track/Kick no
This would be the cheaper way to go than full custom shafts at the moment and a full floater is like an improvement to shaft strength anyway by reducing the load. I know it's a lot of questions but as I'm looking at going rear discs anyway I thought at the same time I could improve the rear end and it would be better if I ever break a rear shaft.
A full floater takes the vehicle weight off of the
axle shaft and puts it on the housing instead, one
of the major advantages is a broken axle shaft will
not leave you with a wobbly wheel, and with hub
lockouts towing, on or off the street is much easier
Wild
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Thanks for that. I'm thinking I'll stick with a Zuk 26 spline setup to start as it will be easier/cheaper to do initially. The Toy 27 spline is hardly worth the effort as the diameter barely changes but the Dana 27 spline gains about 1/8"(3mm) in diameter. But going 27 spline will mean new sidegears and lockouts as well as the shafts and maybe spindles.
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What are looking at doing for bolting up the spindles? Make an adapter or weld up the holes and drill new ones to bolt on direct?
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weld up the holes and drill new ones
Dude, you got this covered
;D
I don't know about all axles, but a 27 is the same
size be it Toyota or Dana, there is a standard size
to spline as long as the splines are the same cut
and such
I want to dig into some Toyota diffs and see what
the sidegears are like, and if they would swap for
a cheep axle shaft upgrade ;)
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Thanks for that. I'm thinking I'll stick with a Zuk 26 spline setup to start as it will be easier/cheaper to do initially. The Toy 27 spline is hardly worth the effort as the diameter barely changes but the Dana 27 spline gains about 1/8"(3mm) in diameter. But going 27 spline will mean new sidegears and lockouts as well as the shafts and maybe spindles.
I got a d35 long side standing right next to a broken sammy long side in the shop right now I thought the same thing till I put a mic on the bearing race. It is too small to machine to accept a sammy or kick wheel bearing and I don't wanna have the bearing run right on the axle like a d35 does. the side gears won't work in a sammy diff but I think with a little creative machining I could get a lockright for a d35 to work. That means a slightly bigger axle in the rear with a bit of work but I will have to find a set of d35 non c-clip rears. toyota rears are 27 and 30 spline. A d44 axle will almost go right in an 84 toy rear axle, Just needs a bearing swap and a spacer. I don't know about the front Toy but I think I can get one to tear into then we can compare and see.
Thanks
Wayne
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A full floater would not need any bearings on
the axle shaft, as it's floating between the hub
and the carrier, I would be game to see if a 30
spline Toyata axle shaft could be made to fit a
Track/Kick housing, mostly for the floater, not
as a beefy standard swap.
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A full floater would not need any bearings on
the axle shaft, as it's floating between the hub
and the carrier, I would be game to see if a 30
spline Toyata axle shaft could be made to fit a
Track/Kick housing, mostly for the floater, not
as a beefy standard swap.
Ok good point I have an almost unlimited supply of those. Granpas garage (Danny Grimes ) throws em out every day almost.
Thanks
Wayne
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I don't know about all axles, but a 27 is the same
size be it Toyota or Dana, there is a standard size
to spline as long as the splines are the same cut
and such
I want to dig into some Toyota diffs and see what
the sidegears are like, and if they would swap for
a cheep axle shaft upgrade  ;)
The shaft info I got was from the ARB application Guide and it shows the Toy 27 spline shaft dia. as 1.1"/28mm and the 30 spline shaft dia. as 1.31"/33mm while the Dana 30 & 35 27 spline is 1.16"/29.5mm.
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Another thought to throw into the mix. Cutting and resplining a hardened shaft will ultimately leave a spline that is weaker than the original :( but gains in strength are made by reducing shaft loads as a full floater so back to similar strength if shaft dia. doesn't change. A forged axle shaft with a rolled spline would be substantially (maybe up to 35%) stronger for the same size but cost will be $$$. Increasing the shaft dia. with a recut spline and full floater should be stronger. Another way to go is to do what Mike has done and stick a 9" rear in. Another issue that needs to be considered is that the rear will now be running on front wheel bearings and the loads coming through the rear particularly when climbing hard trails will be significant. Also there have been issues with keeping the hub bolts under tension. I see gains in sevicability but how will reliability be effected? Just playing Devils Advocate as there are issues that need to be considered before deciding if it is a suitable mod for the individual.
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Well the heavy end of a Track/Kick is the front,
so I don't see a service life problem with the
front wheel bearings, and the only problems I
know of with hub bolts is when after market
ones are used, the bolts can work loose, on
the flip side a newer GV/XL7 hub eliminator could
work to eliminate lockout hubs.
If we can find an off the shelf axle that is rolled
spline I would be a happy camper, and this would
solve lots of problems, but I don't think that will
be happening, so cutting new splines will be what
we have to do, I see axle shafts breaking next to
the splines anyway, my guess is this is where the
most twist is and a larger Dia shaft should help
Ford 9" cut and mod for Track/Kick $2500 (currie) sp?
not an option, too much $$
Wild
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A little off the sub. how close is a 84 p/u rear end or a taco to fitting a kick?
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The shaft info I got was from the ARB application Guide and it shows the Toy 27 spline shaft dia. as 1.1"/28mm and the 30 spline shaft dia. as 1.31"/33mm while the Dana 30 & 35 27 spline is 1.16"/29.5mm.
I did some measuring last night. here is what I found
D35
27 spline Measures 1.1" at the splines and has 2 steps 1 is 1.15 and 1 is 1.2 at the axles largest.
Sammy rear
26 spline 1.02 at the spline 1.11 at the axle 1.34 at the bearing seat.
Toyota IfS (Hub research mostly)
26 spline 1.1 at the splines (won't fit a sammy hub without changing the hub over to toyota). But the Ifs narows to .87 in the cv boot ???
D44
30 spline 1.54 at the splines. ( to dark and buried in junk to get any more)
Corp 10 bolt
28 spline 1.3 at the splines c-clip design 1.4 at the axle.
I think the toyota stuff could be an easy upgrade to your IFS with a bit of research. I also think we could use the hub from a toy on the full floater to get a slightly bigger axle in there. It is a bolt on replacement for your zuk stuff. sept the axle spline difference
Thanks
Wayne
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Great stuff Wayne ;D
There is a little play in the spindle
hole for a slightly bigger axle, all
outer half shaft stubs are 26 spline,
from what I have seen, so spindle hole
Dia. should be the same thru the years,
the inside shoulder of the spindle has a
brass bushing of a currently unknown
thickness, this bushing would not be
needed in a rear floater design, allowing
for a slightly larger axle to fit thru there,
hope being (crosses fingers) a 30 spline
for the rear axle shafts, which would be
an awsome strength upgrade for 37s ;)
Wild
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Don't forget about the inner carrier. The side gears will have to match the outter hubs. If not nothing is gained.
Has anyone thought about a Scout rear D44? I've been told there only an inch wider that our stock axils.
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I have a full floatr in my sammy it is a trail tough conversion with subaru callipers and uses an adaptor plate.
here is my trouble:  putting the weight so far out on the unit(length of: adaptor+samy spindel+2.5 backspace wheel)has caused an unusual strain on the chinsey bolt plate on the axel housing(my housing is the double tough  hybrid). the problem is that those plates have started to "tweak" causing the wheels to "toe out" almost making it look like a vw rear.
in turn you multiply that "tweak" back at the carrier and everything in my rear feels like it is bound. Dont get me wrong the setup I have is tough as hell but i really expect it to break and piss me off someday.the bennifits are good only in one case:if you break the shaft at the outer spline you can drive her home with minor work, if you break it at the inner spline you still have to get that peice out or you take the chance of dammaging your carrier. I dont want to say "dont do it "but i did have some experiences to share. my biggest suggestion to you is that if you decide to procede find a wheel(or have one made)that offsets the wheel in instead of out,with the width of the spindel on there now it will be wider than your existing front,and the offset  might? help the vulcrum position on the weight bearing on the axel.I will try to post some pics later.
jason
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The thought was a 30 spline Toyota side
gear, and a 30 spline hub.
As far as the overall width, I seem to remember
it only being around 1/4" or so wider than the
stock rear width, if the mounting plates are a
problem either grade 8 bolts to prevent movement
or a thick backup plate to reinforce the thin housing
flange, or I have some other ideas too, thanks for
the heads up on this problem Locjaw
Wild
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Look familiar ?
(http://www.marlincrawler.com/images/highpinion_250b.jpg)
Anyone that's had their diff apart would recognize
this style of differential, Side gears anyone ???
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Look familiar ?
([url]http://www.marlincrawler.com/images/highpinion_250b.jpg[/url])
Anyone that's had their diff apart would recognize
this style of differential, Side gears anyone ???
Uh yah,
:D
~Nate
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Don't forget about the inner carrier.  The side gears will have to match the outter hubs.  If not nothing is gained.
Has anyone thought about a Scout rear D44?  I've been told there only an inch wider that our stock axils. ÂÂ
I have 2 they are almost 8 inches wider than a sammy axle Wms to Wms but would be a good swap. I think the problem would be matching the front ratios.
Thanks
Wayne
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I found a gear set for the D44(just looked up one of the popular supplyers) and found out you can get a 5.89:1 R&P.
So for thouse of us running the 5.83's this would be a good match. (it's less than 1% difference, so there is no problem.)
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I found a gear set for the D44(just looked up one of the popular supplyers) and found out you can get a 5.89:1 R&P. ÂÂ
So for thouse of us running the 5.83's this would be a good match.  (it's less than 1% difference, so there is no problem.)
Cool problem solved
Thanks
Wayne
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There is a little play in the spindle
hole for a slightly bigger axle, all
outer half shaft stubs are 26 spline,
from what I have seen, so spindle hole
Dia. should be the same thru the years,
the inside shoulder of the spindle has a
brass bushing of a currently unknown
thickness, this bushing would not be
needed in a rear floater design, allowing
for a slightly larger axle to fit thru there,
hope being (crosses fingers) a 30 spline
for the rear axle shafts
Wild
This is question that needs answering. I think I remember an old post saying the Sammy spindle I.D. was 1.155" I've been talking to a guy today who can make new shafts with hobbed splines from N26 steel and then heat treated to toughen the splines. It's starting to look like Kick spindles with Toy lockouts that he modifys from 6bolt to 12 bolt so they don't loosen or shear and 27 spline sidegears for the ARB. This would result in an inner 27 spline of 29.5mm/1.16" O.D. and an outer 30 spline of 33mm/1.31" compared to the standard Kick 26 spline of 27.4mm/1.08". Not as good as 30 spline both ends but still better than stock and the sidegears are available and the lockouts are a bolt on I think???
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The trick would be to get 27 sidegears
without the ARB attached
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I've already got the ARB. Just trying to get confirmation on the sidegear swap.
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Wild, as you'll see in my other post the 27 spline swap is out but a Dana 30 spline swap is available so 33.3mm/1.31" is possible at both ends. Need to know if this size shaft could be made to work with the axle housing and spindle.
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The housing is plenty big for a 30
spline, (* edit: do you mean the carrier ?
I was thinking axle housing*)
I don't think it will fit thru the spindle if
it's close to the 30 spline Dia of a D44.
I think more along the lines of a 28
is going to fit, tho some machine work
could take some meat out of the spindle
hole for a little more room
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Yep, we're talking D44 size shafts here ;D same size spline as the Toy shaft. It comes down to whether that shaft size can be made to fit.
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Yep, we're talking D44 size shafts here  ;D same size spline as the Toy shaft. It comes down to whether that shaft size can be made to fit.
I got one of each at home I will measure at lunch and let you know
Thanks
Wayne
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I got one of each at home I will measure at lunch and let you know
Thanks
Wayne
Did you ever measure them?