ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: jerryp58 on December 31, 2004, 03:39:42 AM
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Some of you know I just did a lot of work on my Tracker.
The truck has been running great for the week and a half since I finished it.
Well, I went out this morning to remove the throttle body spacer I made, that went without incident (I think), and while I was at it  ::)  I thought I'd check my compression (a big reason for all the work I had done).
Compression was fine at 160, 145, 150, 155.
BUT, I noticed while I was checking compression on the #2 plug that the tach stopped showing RPM  ???  It was OK on #1 (maybe reading a little slow), but on #2 and the rest it stayed at ZERO.
So, I finished installing the plugs, buttoned her up, tried to start and nothing  >:(  I have fuel coming out of the injector nicely, I checked spark at the #1 plug and that was fine, but, I still show ZERO RPM when it's cranking.
I'm gonna go put on an old coil and old plugs, but I don't have much hope; I think it's gotta be something electrical.
EDIT: Actually, I think I'll put the diagnostic fuse in first and see if anything shows up.
Oh, I checked the coil fuse in the fuse box and it was fine.
I'm stumped AND VERY, VERY FRUSTRATED  :(
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SOunds electrical, I would look and see if anything got bumped loose or not reconnected. Then go back to basics spark? you have fuel, timing, check distributer for tracking etc, and good battery. Good luck hope its an easy one. JL
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Well, I just:
1. Checked all of the fuses I could find in the cab and the engine compartment -- All fine.
2. Replaced all of the plugs and the coil with some old stuff I had -- No difference.
3. Cleaned the rotor and contacts under the dist cap -- No difference.
4. Zero'd up the timing marks and the rotor points to #1 -- As it should.
5. Checked all of the wires near the throttle body -- All look OK (I guess except the one that has a problem and I'm missing ::) )
6. Tried to start it to see if the computer could capture a code, plugged in the diagnostic fuse, got a Code 12 -- Normal.
7. Disconnected the battery for 15 minutes to let the computer reset -- No difference.
8. Check the wires coming off of the distributor (where I would guess the RPMs are captured) -- Didn't see any problems.
:-/ I'M FREAKIN' STUMPED :-/
I'm gonna read the Haynes and FSM to see if I can find out what feeds the tachometer and tells it the engine is turning (since that connection seems to be broken).
I'm really hoping someone has seen this before and can help. I'm starting to think it may be the computer or something :(
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DO you have spark to the plugs?
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DO you have spark to the plugs?
Yup.
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7.  Disconnected the battery for 15 minutes to let the computer reset -- No difference.
Read the manual and disconnected the dome/tail fuse for 20 seconds to clear the ECM's long term memory.
Checked some of the problems described in the FSM (what a disorganized PITB that thing can be) and everything checked out OK; as far as I can tell, that is, I HATE electronics.
Y1 (#1 on the yellow connector) is what I understand to be the signal from the dist for tach. It's supposed to be "on" (I guess that means 12v) with the ignition at "On" -- it was. It's supposed to alternate On/Off when the engine is cranking; it averaged 6v on my multi-meter then, so I guess that's the same as 12v for On and 0v for off ???
Anyway, I'm about ready to call it quits with this thing -- it's just too frustrating and too much time lately :(
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So it starts and runs, but the tach
is not working, right ?
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So it starts and runs, but the tach
is not working, right ?
I'd be thrilled if that were the case.
No, I'm afraid it doesn't start.
It has spark to the plugs, it has fuel.
After messing with it and doing what little electronic troubleshooting I can figure out, I think it may be the ECU.
I can't imagine what I could have knocked loose.
It was running great and I killed it :(
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If it has spark and fuel (in the chamber), it should go boom.
sure about spark (at the right time)
sure about fuel (in the chamber)
Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've heard of people saying "I checked the wiring", which meant they looked at it and nothing was melted together.
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If it has spark and fuel (in the chamber), it should go boom.
sure about spark (at the right time)
sure about fuel (in the chamber)
Don't mean to sound like an ass, but I've heard of people saying "I checked the wiring", which meant they looked at it and nothing was melted together.
I agree with the "boom" statement. It seems like it would have to run.
If the computer were bad, would I not have spark?
I didn't try the timing light while cranking it; I may give that a shot, and I only checked #1 for spark. But, I did check the timing marks and they lined up when #1 was at TDC.
The very puzzling thing is the tach. I don't understand why it doesn't know that the engine is turning.
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No help on this :-/
The big question is: Has anyone ever had their tach stop working? Is there a common reason for the tach to show 0 RPM while cranking?
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I don;t have my service manual handy but from what I recall ...
The tach is fed from the inducer? (not the coil)? I also recall that the inducer has some wimpy 18 guage wire running to ground (on the firewall?). If the ground has gone bad, you could get your symptoms.
As for testing spark, the ONLY reliable means is with the plugs in, under compression, and using a timing light. Pulling a plug wire and seeing a spark to ground doesn't show that the PLUG is actually firing. If the spark is weak, you might see a wire spark, but if the timing light inducer can't pick up spark from the wire (with plugs in under compression), then you know you really aren't getting spark.
Other items to check ...
cap/rotor (carbon traces?, hair?)
is the wire to the distributor getting consitant fire (using timing light with plugs in)?
You might have gone down this road already, but sometimes the simple crap get's your hair pulled out ... (i.e. what's the fuel guage read:) )
Rob
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on my tracker and someone i know when the computr was bad we both had spark and both had fuel getting to the eingine, may be the computer?
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No, if you have spark and fuel the
engine would start
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no, it wouldnt and it didnt, not on mine and not on a freind of mine,
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I don;t have my service manual handy but from what I recall ...
The tach is fed from the inducer? (not the coil)? I also recall that the inducer has some wimpy 18 guage wire running to ground (on the firewall?). If the ground has gone bad, you could get your symptoms.
As for testing spark, the ONLY reliable means is with the plugs in, under compression, and using a timing light. Pulling a plug wire and seeing a spark to ground doesn't show that the PLUG is actually firing. If the spark is weak, you might see a wire spark, but if the timing light inducer can't pick up spark from the wire (with plugs in under compression), then you know you really aren't getting spark.
Other items to check ...
cap/rotor (carbon traces?, hair?)
is the wire to the distributor getting consitant fire (using timing light with plugs in)?
You might have gone down this road already, but sometimes the simple crap get's your hair pulled out ... (i.e. what's the fuel guage read:) )
Rob
I'll check my manual, but what is the "inducer"?
I did have the 1/2" ratchet handle near the coil & surrounding wires when removing the plugs. I checked the wires, but probably need to check them again.
I guess I should check the coil voltage too. And, I'll hook the timing light up to all four plugs (one at a time of course). I was getting a timing light when hooked up to #1.
Thanks.
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92Sidekick4x4  & Wildgoody,
I would have thought that with fuel and spark (that is enough spark) that it would run too.  I would think that  if something was wrong with the computer, it would keep either spark, or fuel, or both from working.
But, given the nature of cars & computers these days, I wouldn't bet money on it ::)  It'd be interesting to have someone with a running vehicle unplug their computer and see what happens.  My guess would be that it would run, poorly maybe, but that it would run.
Thanks all, I appreciate the thoughts.  This has been EXTREEMLY frustrating  :(
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OK, this is simple mechanics, if you
have fuel, and a spark in the cylinder
it will start, it has to, assuming there
is compression, that's laws of nature,
sorry I can't change that.
You need to verify the cam is still timed
right, that the distributor is turning, and
that the plug wires are on the right plugs.
All this checks out and it won't start, fuel is
the problem, verify with starting fluid (spray)
The trucklet will not run without the computer,
that is what pulses the injector, no pulse, no
fuel. the ECU does not have any spark control
that I am aware of on the earlier Track/Kicks,
later models have some control, don't know when
it started, I know at least some 16V engines do.
Weak spark will not jump the plug gap, but you
should be able to tell with a look at the plug if
it has a hot spark or not, if unsure have the voltage
tested, or replace the coil with a known good one
before buying parts.
Check the grounds by the distributor, these are the
main grounds for the computer system, without them
it will not work properly, if at all, check for broken wires
as there are several grounds there, seems like 5 or 6
wires if I remember right.
Double check the fuel, starting fluid is cheep and easy
to check with, and might save you lots of time/headache
Wild
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Side Note:
When I hooked up the MegaSquirt I tried
to use the factory tach signal, it caused a
no start condition, seems the tach signal
is read by the computer, no signal no
continued run, I could get a little bit of
start, but it was a hard start and no run
situation.
If the Distributor has an electrical problem,
I bet the engine will not run, same as my
ground out tach signal problem.
What year is this truck ???
8V ? etc.
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OK, this is simple mechanics, if you
have fuel, and a spark in the cylinder
it will start, it has to, assuming there
is compression, that's laws of nature,
sorry I can't change that.
You need to verify the cam is still timed
right, that the distributor is turning, and
that the plug wires are on the right plugs.
All this checks out and it won't start, fuel is
the problem, verify with starting fluid (spray)
The trucklet will not run without the computer,
that is what pulses the injector, no pulse, no
fuel. the ECU does not have any spark control
that I am aware of on the earlier Track/Kicks,
later models have some control, don't know when
it started, I know at least some 16V engines do.
Weak spark will not jump the plug gap, but you
should be able to tell with a look at the plug if
it has a hot spark or not, if unsure have the voltage
tested, or replace the coil with a known good one
before buying parts.
Check the grounds by the distributor, these are the
main grounds for the computer system, without them
it will not work properly, if at all, check for broken wires
as there are several grounds there, seems like 5 or 6
wires if I remember right.
Double check the fuel, starting fluid is cheep and easy
to check with, and might save you lots of time/headache
Wild
well, when mine went it had spark and fuel going to engine, and also on the friend of mine her's died and we had our friend who is a mehcanic came and test for spark, it had spark, chekd fuel was getting to the engine and it did, thats all im saying thats what happend.
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So what was the problem ?
What fixed it ?
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a new computer fixed both, mine and my freinds, a dam high cost too ;)
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I'll check my manual, but what is the "inducer"?
I meant to type "igniter" (it's the little piece mounted just above the coil).
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I meant to type "igniter" (it's the little piece mounted just above the coil).
Gotcha. Thanks.
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when the cpu went in my 91 kick it had spark and fuel when being turned over and it was baffling so i did some reading on here and yanked the computer out. being the computer junky i am took it apart and wow it was not an epoxy board good news.well i went down to the shop got the schematic for the puter and started tracing the fuel circuit to find a bad trace in the board which was caused by a bad capacitor that leaked and from what i see with the computers it is the same think with all of them that mess up..the reason it won't start when the fuel and spark is there is because the computer is not sending the signal at the right time for the thing to start. take a squirt bottle with some fuel in it and sqirt it in the fuel body and if it runs you now it is the puter or run 12volt power to one of the wires on the fuel injector and that opens it and will run....been there done that and now have fixed alot of these cpu's and it is like way cheap. capacitor is like 2 bucks and i took it out of an old dss receiver. just my 2 cents...