ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: sevenspeed on September 15, 2007, 04:27:16 AM
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I was looking at a 95 4door sidekick with 192,000 miles on it. It's got some rust so needs to be fixed up and painted, but for $1,000 I can't complain. What worries me though is the guy who owns it now has had it for 6 months and knows nothing about cars. He hasn't changed the oil as far as I know. It runs good now (just a puff of black smoke at startup), but when checking the oil it's pretty black and has some gritty stuff in it. The previous owner blew the head gasket and replaced it 5,000 miles ago. Not sure how to tell if it's done right.
I'm low on budget right now so if it would last me through winter for sure I could fix it up over the summer maybe. A rebuild is out of the question right now I think. Parts are only $300 (assuming cams are okay) but I don't know how much any machining work would be. I've never rebuilt a piston engine before and don't know much beyond maintenance and repair (not so great on troubleshooting) but I could figure it out. Rotarys I know, heh. But no cams or valves or any of the matter to deal with on those.
Any opinions are appreciated, I don't need something right away but $1400 is about my max and my RX-7 isn't driven in the winter, don't think it would do any good anyway (Michigan).
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Did he replace the head gasket or try to fix it with that powder crap? If he used that head gasket powder stuff and it is still leaking a little that would explain the grit in the oil. The best way to check the head gasket is a compression check or the dye check of the coolant.
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With that many unmaintained , undocumented miles that thing is a failure waiting to happen. Don't let it happen to you.
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Supposed to be a new head gasket by the previous owner before him. Thanks for the opinions, I figured it was a failure waiting to happen too but thought I'd ask to be sure. The guy before him might have taken care of it, but all this guy did in 6 months was exhaust and tires, I don't think he even got an oil change :\
How common were the 4 doors? I guess I could afford like $3k for one if it's well taken care of. There doesn't seem to be many around me, there is one at a car dealer but I'm not driving 3 hours to have to check it out, maybe if it was a private owner I could talk too.
I'll just have to wait and hope something shows up, I would really like to have one. A Sammy would be alright too (I like the 4 door better) but everytime I find one it's already gone.
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If the grit in the motor is flaky black grit it's most likely carbonized rubber compounds the oil companies use to make multi weight oils. It is a sign the the engine has been badly overheated I would not mess with it. Carbon is highly abrasive and will wear any moving parts very quickly It is possible to clean the engine out but because there is no telling how long the engine has been run like that, it is very possible that the engine will require a complete rebuild including cylinder bore and possibly more machining as well. Dave
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So that's how they make it thicker when it warms up, I always wondered about that. That's probably why they replaced the head gasket, I wonder if they milled the head or just slapped one on. I'm not getting it, but it surprised me how people don't take care of their stuff. I'm over caring though, heh, I change the oil every 3,000 it may cost $20 or more DIY but I'd rather be safe then sorry and it can't hurt anything but the wallet.
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Yes the rubber particles expand as the oil heats somewhat changing the viscosity of the oil. It does not really work very well. If you must use a conventional oil a standard detergent single weight oil is a much better choice. The oil compounds will carbonize if the oil reaches 300 degrees. Synthetic oil's use a different chemical makeup, which will not carbonize and ruin your engine. I run Syntec 20W50 in lil Suzy. She gets a filter change at 5,000 and a oil and filter change at 10,000. she has 170,000 hard miles on her she has been overheated many times (mud bogging clogs the radiator) and she still does not burn any significant amount of oil. Dave
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Thanks for all the info, I do enjoy learning stuff like that. I might have to rethink what I run in the turbo rotary car. I've been running 20W50 conventional, if it never goes over like 210 degrees is that okay? I don't think I would want to run straight 50 for startup.
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I run 10/40 Mobile 1 in the Tracker with the Turbo, and run 20/50 Mobile 1 in my Harley. Swear by synthetics, good stuff.
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I've been running 20W50 conventional, if it never goes over like 210 degrees is that okay?
its OK as long as it doesn't develop a coolant leak. If you do and you wait for the idiot light to come on it will be to late.
I don't think I would want to run straight 50 for startup.
That is a urban myth that I have heard since I was a kid. When I was a teenager I bought a 67 Mustang GTA fastback with 390hp engine. It had a slight bearing knock and my uncle who built stock cars at the time, helped me fix it. We replaced the rod and main bearings replaced the oil pump with a factory hi performance unit. When I asked about oil, he recommended straight detergent 50 weight. I brought up the same thing you said above and he told me that was not true. Sure enough During the next couple of years when I went out to start the car on those -20 degree mornings at 5 am the car never failed to start it never spun a bearing, sheared the distributor pin, broke the timing chain or any of the other things I have heard that running thick oil will cause. What you gain with a oil with higher viscosity is that the oil runs off the high wear areas slower than a lower viscosity oil. This means that there will still be oil on the bearings and cylinder walls cam etc when you start the engine. This actually makes for an easier start and decreased engine wear. I have run high viscosity oil in my cars for 34 years and have yet to have a problem. I started using synthetics back in the 80's I am sure I will not have a problem now because of the stability, longevity, and increased lubricity of synthetics.
It turns out that a 10w30 motor oil is actually more of a 19w22 weight oil. The rubber compounds do thicken the oil slightly as the oil heats. However I do not think the value outweighs the risks. There is a slight fuel mileage cost to running a thicker oil but that is the only down side I know of. Dave
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On the topic of oil visosity is to remember that these high rev, alum engines are VERY "tight" in tolerances when new, and usually only lose that tolerance when abused or "worm out".
A thick viscosity is good for a worn engine, but thin is best for one that aint been abused.
In fact a thick viscosity is actually harmful to an engine that isn't "worn out". A "tight" engine LIKES thinner oils.
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In fact a thick viscosity is actually harmful to an engine that isn't "worn out". A "tight" engine LIKES thinner oils.
Ya I have heard that too.
I looked up the oil recommendations for a 96 sidekick. (Suzukiinfo.com has a copy) The owners manual says 20w50 oil is OK down to -10 degrees
The reason that manufacturers recommend thinner oils today is because a engine running thinner oil will get slightly better gas mileage. The engine will ultimately wear out faster using thinner oils as well. Dave
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Wow, thanks for all the info everyone. I hope I find a Zuki sometime. I'm just leary of running synthetic in the rotary unless it is one of the brands designed for that which costs $9 a quart b/c alot of people say synthetic will lead to failure in a rotary since they inject oil to lubricate the equivelant of piston rings into the cylinder and the synthetic doesn't burn off, just keeps building up.
It's been rebuilt and has 70,000 original miles on the motor, not much on the rebuild (no machining work or bearings replaced.) The manual for that reccomends 20w50 if it never gets below 30 degrees I think (there is a chart) and I don't drive it in the winter. So I might have to rethink that and do straight 40 or straight 50 or something and MAYBE synthetic, any of the rotary Zuki's have any advice?
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Straight 50 wt in the winter? :o
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1&Number=814022&Searchpage=4&Main=813676&Words=cold&topic=&Search=true#Post814022
I have never seen so much bullshit in one thread.
"The engine will ultimately wear out faster using thinner oils as well. Dave"
Most of the wear occurs at startup before there is oil pressure. if you use thicker oil it takes longer to have pressure. especially when its cold.
i hope you guys are using 5-30 in the summer or 0-30 syn in super cold conditions.
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Satan, I dunno if you consider my post
I have never seen so much bullshit in one thread.
I read your link and I grew up in AK and had to start many rigs in VERY cold conditions.
Yup, most wear happens at startup.
A "tight" engine (like the zuki's), needs a low viscosity (mine is spec'd at 5w-30w IIRC).
In extreme cold, I'd want it runnin' 0w-20 (or perhaps 10w straight).
But when they get worn a bit, a bit more viscosity (even when extremely cold) can also be benefitial.
So, in a zuki with >200k miles, I'd run 10w+, less than that, a 5w+ is probably best ...
syn vs. dyno???
I always found dyno warmed faster when heating the pan at 20 below ;D
Then again turbos and dyno in cold whether are a bad combo ;)
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This is a hard subject to discuss because everyone has an opinion based on what the dad grandfather, mechanic or friend has told them, or based on some of the conflicting data which is available on the Internet, some magazine, or book. The bottom line is: everyone should follow what they think is right.
Here is why I do what I do Based on almost 40 years of working on and maintaining my own vehicles.
Here is why I believe thicker oil is better for a engine, especially a small aluminum engine like the ones we drive. Remember these are only my opinions.
Myth 1, Thicker oil takes longer to get to the Bearings; The oil moves from the oil pan through the oil pump and is pushed under pressure through the oil galleys to the bearings where it is pushed past the bearings and makes it way back to the oil pan, to begin the process again. This is ideally a modified hydraulic system. The oil pump pushes all oil at the same speed it can not push it slower unless the resistance is high enough to break the pump. It used to be on old V8's that the oil pump was run off the bottom of the distributor gear, and sometimes with that design the pin which holds the distributor gear to the distributor would sheer if the Dino oil was to thick. This is no longer an issue at least on our little engine as it is direct drive off the crank shaft. I have been running 20W50 Syn in my lil Suzy since 91. and at least for 150 of her 170,000 mile life. I have never had any problems no matter what temp it has been outside.
Further the idea is not to pump the oil to the bearings faster. The idea is to leave the oil suspended in the galleys and on the bearings and cylinder walls until restart. This way the oil doesn't have to get anywhere, it is already there when the pump starts. This is why I use thicker oil as it runs off the parts slower than thinner oil. It is like lubricating a hinge with WD40 or 3in1 The WD40 hinge is going to need to be re-lubed much sooner than the 3in1 because it is a thinner oil. I should note at this point that I have seen the oil light stay on for a moment or two on some vehicles I have started which were using thin oil. I want you to know that I never see the oil light on lil Suzy at start up The only time I see the light is if the engine is off and the ignition is on. As soon as the engine cranks there is at least enough pressure in the system to kill the idiot light. I do not have a pressure gauge in lil Suzy so I do not know what the actual pressure is.
Another factor is the oil rings Many people think that the oil rings keep oil out of the cyl. This is not the case, the compression rings actually do a much better job of scrubbing the cyl. walls. The oil ring is designed to hold oil and lubricate the cyl. as the piston moves up and down. The ring looks like this- lVVl - the two thin rings on the top and bottom allow oil into the middle where it is held by a ring of zigzag spring steel which holds the outer rings apart and also creates small spaces which hold oil in reserve to keep the cyl walls continuously lubed. and to hold oil until the engine is restarted. This is another reason I use thicker oil, again because the thinner oils will leak out and return to the oil pan sooner, leaving the cyl. walls without lubrication.
I reread the 95 owners manual I referenced above and discovered I was misreading the oil page. Suzuki gives the temp range for 20W50 as good to -10 degrees C. or 14 degrees F. I still don't see this as a problem due to the superior cold weather flow characteristics of synthetics. On the other end 10W30 is only recommended up to 86 degrees F. I have given some thought to why Suzuki would allow such a wide range of oil viscosity's to be used in their engines. It would seem that if there was a optimal engine oil for these engines They would list maybe 3, 5W30 for really cold climates 10W30 for medium and maybe 10W40 for hot areas. Why would they add the heavier oils? The conclusion I have come to is: It depends on how hard you are working the engine. Thicker oils have higher sheer strengths, that is, how much pressure the oil will withstand before it separates and allows metal to metal contact.
I have used lil Suzy quite hard over the years. When I was mud bogging her in Memphis Tennessee along the Wolf river, I can not count the number of times the radiator got plugged with mud and I drove her to the closest coin car wash with the engine temp gauge in or close to the red zone. Even with all that and 170,000 miles she still gives good compression numbers and runs quite well given her age. I still work her quite hard when she is on the trail, partly because I have not gotten her new T case gears installed yet, She is asked to climb steep hills and crawl over big rocks at very low rpms which she does quite well and further, she does not burn any oil to speak of. The plugs look fine.
As I mentioned before there is a trade off in mileage due to the fact that thicker oil is harder to move things in. I am not sure how much of this is off set by the increased lubricity of synthetics but I am sure there is some reduction.
Again I want to stress these are only my ideas and I am not recommending them to anyone unless you think they have Merritt.
Dave
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What he said. I run 20/50 Mobile One in the turbo Tracker in the summer, 10/40 Mobile One in the winter. Runs Great. In all my years of messing with engines, everything from air cooled flatheads, OHV racing V Twins, OHC v twins, DOHC liquid cooled inline fours, air cooled inline fours, air cooled opposed twins, v8's v6's v4's (I had a Ford Tonnus when I lived in Germany) and so many more, I've found that engines run quieter, cooler and longer on thicker grades of oil. Only if your building a pure racing engine do you want to run thinner oil to extract every last bit of power out of it, and it's only noticeable if you have something like an eddy current dyno to measure it.
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Everything you've ever wanted to know about oil:
http://bobistheoilguy.com/
~J~