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ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: 90Stomper on October 07, 2007, 09:26:30 PM
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Ok, I have a 04, 4 door Chevy Tracker V6, pretty much the same as a Grand Vitara. I want a locker of some sort BAD. So, here I sit looking at all these options I don’t have and I am getter really confused, some clarification from someone smarter, please.
I have the ARB catalogue in front of me. It says:
Front locker for 1998-05, 26 spine ADD, 27.4 shaft dia. – says Grand Vitara/XL7 will need a conversion kit and a Vitara/Sidekick 3rd member.
For the rear locker 1998-05, 26 spine, 27.4 shaft dia. – says GV/XL7 rear requires conversion using Vitara/Sidekick 3rd member (and 26spine axle shafts if required).
1st, what is ADD (not accidental death or dismemberment)
2nd, I did call around, and the few ARB dealers I talked to are not sure what fits what. No one seems to deal with GVs or Trackers this new too much or at all
3rd, this looks like I need (mine is like a GV right?) maybe some 98 or so front and rear 3rds and I will be good to go? If this is so them why aren’t TT, roadless, calmini, hawk, etc. pushing their lock-rites or spools for the GV/V6 tracker crowd? Logic to me would seem that if I can make an ARB work that easy, the any locker would do. I have not taken my 04 rear apart but I assume that it is 26 spine 27.4 dia.
Please tell me what I am missing here…… thanks
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In the same boat withmy 01 Vitara , I took my rear apart and found that the ring gear is different than the older modles and it seams that a third from a older track/kick will work. picking one up this week to try... will let all know what happens ...
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from what i gathered is the rear changed in 01 or they dont know whats in it but anything from 94-00 will have the same12 bolt rear... i dont know for sure if the rear changed but no one seems to list past 2000 models... the front is the same from 89-98 it says except from 96 on the output changed to 26 spline... what i would do is just check your front and rear diff see if they are still 12 bolt rears and 10 bolt front, then check the spline on it to see if they both stayed 26... honestly i doubt they changed it they probably are just too new.. and no one has ripped into them yet... just like with hayes manuals you have to wait a few years before they even make one... but what i have seen so far anything from 96-05 is the same setup 10 bolt front 12 bolt rear 26 spline axle shafts... i could be wrong but i dont think your gonna find out for sure unless you try it or find someone who has..
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Pardon the interruption, but this is a mod that I'm planning for my 99 GV. I'm planning a rear-only ARB but all this talk of having to convert before installing has got me concerned. I mean I keep reading I have to get pieces out of an old tracker/sidekick and put them in my GV first? I mean wouldn't that weaken it? Wouldn't my GV parts (I guess they're talking about the diff carrier itself) be stronger because it's meant for a v6? So I have to downgrade before I can upgrade to ARB? And what about the ratios? I'm sure the final drives between the sidekick and GV are different allowing the tracker to run at higher rpms on the highway, does this mean I have to convert the front too?
And for pete's sake, WHAT on EARTH is this "THIRD MEMBER" thing that everyone talks about? ??? I'm a 4-5th year apprentice mechanic and the suzuki forums are the only places that I have heard that term and I still don't know to what exactly it refers. All I know it has something to do with the rear axle/differential. Is it: The axle tubes/diff case? The big heavy piece the diff itself mounts into, before going into the rear axle? The carrier itself, including the crown/ring gear? The pinion gear? The carrier without the ring gear? Speaking of third member, what happened to the first and second members?
Sorry for asking a doofy question but I've owned my GV since January and have been lurking (mostly) on this forum and others for just as long. Just read this thread and I just snapped and had to ask. This has been driving me insane.
I really really would like to see a tutorial on installing an ARB air locker into a GV, specifically what the heck they mean by requiring what parts exactly from a "trackick" and why... oh and now it only affects 01 and newer? :-\
I know when someone says "12 bolt rear" I know it means how many bolts hold the ring gear to the carrier... and 26 splines yeah I know that too...
:)
James
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1st, what is ADD (not accidental death or dismemberment)
I think it means "automatic disconnecting differential" ie. it disconnects from the front c/v shafts.
James
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I'm a 4-5th year apprentice mechanic
What is a 3rd member?
"WOW" ???
Okay,I'll bite
It is the part that is removeable on the front/rear axle that holds the pinion/ring gear and is removeable with out removing the whole rear axle.
Upgrade/downgrade 3rd member?
it's actually a straight across trade off.
It just gives you more options in the rear(i:e parts avilable(I:E, Lockers))
If you have a steel Front third, hold onto it............
Hope this helps a bit..
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FYI You can't use 4.875 R&P's with an air locker. There are some differences that even with some machining still won't let them work.
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I too have been a bit puzzled about 3rd member (also 1st and 2nd ???). I think it is the assembly of parts listed as:
Case Diff, LH
Ring, Exciter
Case Diff, RH
Is that near?
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Gear Case - cast iron (or optionally, aluminum) unit that houses all of the internal differential components, such as the carrier and ring and pinion. When all of the internal differential components are installed into the case, the completed unit is referred to as a "third member". The 3rd member is then installed into the axle housing
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Great discussion! I totally agree with Wezeles. I think the newer generations are still way too new for too many people to have broken them down to modify. Most people can't afford nor are interested in buying a new/newer vehicle then taking them apart iin their driveways. They can't afford the cost of parts,,, or worry about voiding an existing warranty or they just aren't interested in modifying their rides (yuppy types). These trucklets are just a great way to get from home to work for most people. Older Trackers/Kicks and Sammys have been stripped down to their frames and modified many times, as documented within this forum but what exactly is different/new on the newer generations isn't as widely known by as many. Hell, there is even a great deal of discussion on just how high you really can lift the suspension without bringing doom on the CVs or some other area (1.5" or 3"?).
This is the exact reason that makes me think Richmond gear, in their final analysis is going to opt for manufacturiing rear end gears and differentials for the newer generation trucklets (99-07 Trackers and GVs) because the market is growing on these trucks and slowly diminishing on the earlier Trackers/Geos/Kicks and Sammys (98 and earlier). They don't make or import them anymore to us. At least here in the U.S. their engines and axles will out last the vehicles. You got to have a body in order to have truck.
This is a great forum and I totally enjoy the information exchange and flow. It's helped me tons already
Norm
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i think we will see alot more of the newer gens soon... they are now getting cheep. i picked mine up for 4,500 bucks out the door with 75,000 miles and a 30,000 mile warranty... and i drive mine like its an older vehical with little discretion... its not that they are expensive to fix, its just the parts are just now being made... i have to replace to lower control arm "one piece ball joint broke" both inner and outter tie rod ends and the cv shaft on mine after ive been messing with it . mudding trail ridding ect.. my strut extender let loose and drove over my own tire... but still the price for a used control arm was 50 bucks, the cv shaft 75 new, inner and outter tie rod 100 shipped to my door... not bad for a car only 7 years old... and for what i did so far i couldnt have rented a jeep and done that much for the same price...
we know the rear end is the same atleast untill 2000... i dont see why they would change it after that... the front end is also the same up till 2000 dont see why they would change that eaither... i know the XL7 rear end is larger "3rd memeber" but besides that they all seem to be based basically on the same setup as the 96-98 styles with the 26 spline front and rear... the only issue you will get into is the high end vehicals with stuff like ADD and i think some of the XL7's and grand vitaras offer and AWD 4low and 4 high so its probably got some electrics in there... but when you talk about adding lockers... these all use the same parts and bolt patterns we know this from guys upgrading to XL7 steal diffs up front... best bet get on ebay or a junkyard... buy a steal diff without any of the crap if you can if you have to just get a alum then toss a locker in that... then toss on some manual hubs... even in winter conditions you could just lock one side so it doesnt go squirrely on you...
granted you will probably loose your ADD, your AWD, or traction control if you have it... but your putting in a locker air locker or not you obviously want something that will have some extra guts off road... so screw the extra crap you can survive without it and the soccer team will be fine i promise... if you wanted the ability to have all that traction and a safe cushy ride no matter what.. you wouldn't have bought an "economy" mini suv you would have bought a freekin hummer for 50 grand or more... my guess is unless you dump alot of cash, your not going to be able to stick with the "push button" luxury... but unless your lifting it tossing on bigger tires and acctually doing stuff with it... you dont need a locker in the first place...
the true mini suv is gone... its sad enough that they went to a rack and pinion steering setup on these things for the 99 and up styles... but now all the new ones are unibodys... and you know the full frame wont come back... same with CRV's, hyundai all of them... this is the last years of the "real" mini suv's, its all going to be cross overs now,unibodys, push buttons, AWD nothing but lifted station wagons that handle well in bad "On road" conditions and thats all....anything this small with the same setup after today will be cutom made not factory... so have fun, go wild because you wont have another chance, just storys to your grandkids of how they use to make off road vehicals, and how cool you made yours
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wow, this turned into a really good discussion. thanks all for you input!
FYI You can't use 4.875 R&P's with an air locker. There are some differences that even with some machining still won't let them work.
i think this is the problem with the V6 and why a reg locker wont fit. on another forum i got some info on an ex ARB tech that i am going to try to contact. i will post here if i find out anything.
i agree about the mini suv is dead/dying. r&p steering sucks, unibody sucks..... and i really hope the small 4x4 modding craze moves into the 200-2005 range. richmond isnt making gears for the ol 10 bolt anymore, maybe they will move up to making a 4.875 sized ring at a better ratio. and maybe a lok-rite locker from someone too...... ahhh its good to dream.
also looking into this locker in Greece.
http://www.to4x4.gr/html/site/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.to4x4.gr/html/site/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
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well the ARB air locker may not be possibal without switching diffs... but i bet you if the 2000-2005 style still use the 26 spline... then you can use the same locker as the 96-2000 models.. worth a try you can find a lockright for 275 range.. and if it doesnt work just send it back... it will for sure be out someday no doubt about that, but to get to that point someones gotta be willing to try... if you find out that the lockright will fit with some modifications... well now all you gotta do is come up with a locker style that drops right in to work or some type of adapter and you will have a nice side buisness being the first on the market with it... its always the first people that try something new that gotta pay the big bucks... but they are also the ones that can usually make the most money off sharing the secrets...
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Check out the RRO site for lockers:
http://www.rocky-road.com/kickdrive.html (http://www.rocky-road.com/kickdrive.html)
They say the the lockrite fits GVs thru 2001, so that suggests a design change for 2002. However, the Suzuki Parts list groups 99-03 together, and there doesn't seem to be any change in the third member, crownwheel and pinion for the 04 model either (last year my list covers). So maybe the lockrite for the sidekick fits the GV thru 05. Some models may need side couplers (whatever they are) and others not?
Btw, those Suzuki parts are different in the Sidekick and the XL-7, but of course I can't tell from the list what the differences may be.
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ARB fit my 2000 GV. Axles are 26 spline, and 4.88 ring gear fit the diff. ;D
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im thinking its just the XL7 that has this problem then... the tracker 2 and 4 door and the vitara and grand vitara are all using the same parts from 99-05 on the parts list i found too... i did see a picture of an XL7 3rd memeber next to the GV/tracker and it was physically bigger... it shows a different CV shaft and everything but they all share the same control arm, i have an xl7 control arm here for mine ready to put in it and its identical, and its sayng for an ARB you gotta change the 3rd memeber's and use 26 spline axles so the XL7 has a different setup different axles,3rd memebers,cv's probably bigger and beefier... so that is the problem... you gotta switch over to the GV/tracker diff if you want the goodies, or wait for the XL7 to come out with its own...
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i have contacted ARB in the past and was told that their listing showed that i was required to replace the diff for my 03 with something pre 99... didn't make any sense to me.
recently i emailed RockyRoad and asked if they had any solutions for locking up the rear on my 2003, i never got any response. wonderful.
i personally don't care what king of locker goes in there, pretty soon there won't be a warranty so if it comes to it maybe somebody can weld it for me........................... this f'in sucks moose balls but the reality is with the limited articulation a locker is becoming a must if i want to keep up.
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hmm...
http://www.puresuzuki.com/limited_slip_diff.htm
so maybe its the V6 that kills the locker idea.... anything 2000 on down is a 4 and when they added the the V6 option maybe they just changed the front and rears for all of them not just the v6's.... thats why they tell you to go with 2000 down parts ebcause they know its going to be the right size...
http://www.puresuzuki.com/lockright.htm
this says up to 2001, its got to be the internals of the V6 axles i know it... they might still be 26 spline and all but the diameter is probably bigger to take the power of the v6 better... but a common mod is to use the V6's steal housing for your front diff and we already know by other people doing it that the older 3rd memeber 96-2000 will bolt into the newer steal housing fine... so to do the front i would say just buy a used 3rd memeber and cv shafts from 96-00 26 spline to be safe then put the locker in using the older 3rd memeber and cv shafts... you would probably need to use the axle seals for the 96-00 style too if it is a smaller diameter.."could salvage them outta the used one you get"
for the rear its even eaiser i would just take a whole used axle from 96-01 toss in the locker then simply bolt the whole assembly back into place... would probably be best to get the axle outta a 96-01 12 bolt its stronger and its 3rd memeber is a direct bolt in to your current axle housing... you will have to check to see if the spring and shock mounting points are the same in the 96-98 style, if not you can use your old axle housing like ARB says and just use the older 26 spline axle shafts and 3rd memeber... dont forget to match your front and rear gears
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it will cost more then the pre 2001 and down guys will have to do but it is possibal, and if you search the junkyards and ebay im sure you could still find a deal... it really sucks though that you have to loose the slightly beefier parts to be able to lock it up... might be a good idea to just sit on it and wait for them to develop something for the 2001 and up styles... although it will probably be pretty pricy at first till they get popular, probably about the same price as doing the swap out...
thank god i have a 99 you dont always get screwed on the first year of a new model..lol
front lickrite locker 299.00 from trail tough for the 26 spline
rear lockrite locker 299.95 from calmini with coupler 26 spline
i know that the rear will work for a fact... the front ill let you guys know but i dont see why it would be a problem with the lockrite style locker with manual hubs
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_030104/feature_tsb_shiftontheflyremoval.htm
but you will need to change it out for any LSD,ARB, or any other automatic locker
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i recently received information from RR incidating that the ARB will work in my 03 zr2 with 4.62's. only problem is the price on the ARB! i think i would be better off swapping the thirds and getting a lower gear then installing a lockright. there is a guy who has been on this forum, ZR2, with a 2002 i believe that has done this. i don't feel the lower gearing is that necessary as my power still feels fine but i would not hate the added benefit of slightly better gas mileage, more useable power and less mechanics than the air locker, ending up costing the same as a whole project.
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ya some cheep 3rd member's with 5.12 gear outta a 1st gen would be the way to go anyways... should be more than enough to push a 31 inch tire if not a 33 even and it would get your speedo back close to spec... mine with 31 inch tires will be 11 mph off with stock gears "4.62" but with 5.12 gears it will only be 2 mph off... you gotta rip it apart anyways... same with the front locker from trail tough you still have to get the gears set with that locker... buy a set of 3rd members and just bolt them right back in like ZR2 did... you wouldnt have to suffer any down time if you cant figure it out right away... or if you need a shop to set the gears for you
http://www.f-body.org/gears/ for figuring it out...
205's-235 from 4.62 to 4.88 will make you only 1 mph off, same with 4.88 to 5.12
just make sure its a
94-98 12 bolt rear with 26 spline
96-98 10 bolt front with 26 spline
and your stock axles shafts and cv's will go right in
if you do a front locker just be carful with rough conditions rain,ice,loose gravel.... but dont be intimidated by a locker in the front , i just drove in a tracker with locker in the front and on a wet road all he did was lock only one front hub that way if the rear went squirrely at all the front would pull him through it, just dont lock both the fronts for street driving or both front and rear might get crazy in slick conditions... with just one locked it will drive like normal and you will still have your shift on the fly 4wd aslong as one hub is locked, but you will need manaul hubs with a front locker, but they alone make a world of difference saving the CV shaft life by not spinnign all the time and making steering seem easier and lighter, might even save some gas millage outta it with less drag and rotating parts...
dont get ripped off on price of hubs.. all suzukis except the really early "72-80 sj's lj's"" not sure if they even use hubs" use the same hubs sammy's,trackicks,vitara,sunnrunners so you can use a set of factory manual hubs if you dont wanna dump alot of cash on premium warn's or something like that
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Okay, this thread is making my head hurt.
The GVs upt to 2004-05, whenever the platform changed, all use the same carrier as the 12-bolt kicks.
LIKE I SAID, MY 2000 V6 GV HAS AN ARB IN IT AND THERE IS NOTHING DIFFERENT THAN A KICK. THE GV 4.30 AND 4.88 GEAR WILL FIT THE ARB.
There, is that clear enuff for you? The axles are 26 spline 1.06" diameter, JUST LIKE THE KICK AND SAMURAI. Am I clearer now?
In fact, the rear diff sidegears FIT INTO A SAMURAI CARRIER, so a 1510 Lock-rite will fit, using stock sidegears and not the lock-rite couplers. How do I know they fit in a Samurai carrier? I've got them in the front of my Sammy.
Now, stop fretting. If you want a rear locker and you have a I4 or a V6 GV, then order a 12-bolt ARB, a 12-bolt LSD or a 1510 lockright and be done with it.
Now for the XL7, you're screwed. However, it is possible that the XL7 shares the same carrier as the Mistu Montero, as ARB lists the to as 28spline and the same diameter. Since I don't have an XL, I'm not going to be the one to find out.
BTW - the pic that circulates the web showing the Sammy, Kick and XL diffs side-by-side is my pic. Since I had my hands into all 4 different rear ends (Sam, Kick, GV and XL), I might just have a little insight here.
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dont get ripped off on price of hubs.. all suzukis except the really early "72-80 sj's lj's"" not sure if they even use hubs" use the same hubs sammy's,trackicks,vitara,sunnrunners so you can use a set of factory manual hubs if you dont wanna dump alot of cash on premium warn's or something like that
No, Sammy hubs will not work correctly on a IFS Zook, not a single one. While they are almost the same, the Kick and Sammy have the c-clips in different places and the hubs are machined differently.
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all the aftermarket hubs use the same part
Super winch
http://www.puresuzuki.com/Locking%20Hubs1.htm
http://www.puresuzuki.com/Locking%20Hubs.htm
http://www.puresuzuki.com/hubs.htm
same with Warn part numbers off there website and spidertrax list them as the same
http://www.spidertrax.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.98/.f
and mile markers
http://www.milemarker.com/hub-application.html
for the OEM sammy hubs on trackicks some people have put them on and they work some have had to mess with them to work because of the snap ring issue, i got a set of sammy hubs on the way so ill let you know but even if it does pinch the snap ring all you have to do with the stock sammy hubs is use a 1/8th spacer behind the hub so it doesnt pinch on the snap ring and force the shaft to turn"defeating the purpose", or you could run it without the snap ring... little risky but it would take alot for the axle to pull itself out...
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Okay, this thread is making my head hurt.
me too :P
so when i put my new lift in in a few months i will pull the rear and put in the lockrite from my 90 (with a 93 12bolt rear) into the 04 v6 tracker and let you all know if it works. ;)
There, is that clear enuff for you? The axles are 26 spline 1.06" diameter
clear as mud, ARB says 1.08 dia :P :laugh: thanks for your input YT!!
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I'm a 4-5th year apprentice mechanic
What is a 3rd member?
"WOW" ???
Okay,I'll bite
Thanks ... WOW is right, yeah I know, but I swear to doG it's true, I know all the internal parts of a diff but I never heard the term 3rd member before not in classes or in the shop. I always just called it the diff (the whole thing that comes out of the rear axle.)
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its still called a diff too... the differance is a 3rd memeber is a removable assembled differential, where a standard differential you have to assemble within the axle housing itself....
oh and i tryed the sammy front locking hubs and they fit fine... had to use a factory cork gasket on it though it is a close fit, with the factory hub all they seemed to use was silicone to seal the hub to the wheel, it spins freely when unlocked no clicking but very close doubling up the gaskets wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Also known as a "drop-out", or a "pig" or a "chunk".
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my strut extender let loose and drove over my own tire...
Um.....what?? Please elaborate..
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i was using a boondoxs strut extender... more commonly reffered to as a BDS strut extender... same thing boondox buys it from BDS... and while i was driving the strut extender cracked down the side letting the strut fall out of the mount... the wheel then of course tipped far outward and the bottom ball joint broke under the pressure the tire was only connected by the bent tie rod,sway bar, and brake line... fortunatley none of these were really expensive to fix...
the only problem was avalabilty the lower control arm i bought used off of ebay for 50 bucks i later found new units for sale new online for not too much more, the inner tie rod i also bought off ebay it acctually has more movement then the stock one did but i had to use a "vitara version replacement" no one listed a tracker on ebay and i couldnt find it at any outparts store in stock, NAPA was the only one that listed it in my area and it was back ordered... the outter tie rod end i bought from autozone i think its a duralast brand besides that it was the same issue eaither the parts stores didnt have it or it would be back ordered... so all in all it took about 2 weeks to gather all the parts i needed to get the vehical back together... the strut extender thankfully was replaced for free from boondox he said normally he wouldnt do that but being this seemed to be a freak accident and no one else has had a problem with the extender he was kind enough to replace it... while i was at it i replaced all the shock and struts to gabriel ultras... cheeper brand but ride great both front and rear are stock replacements with 2 inch extenders rides great now had it alligned the northstar camber bolts was enough for the driver side but odly not enough for the passenger side but the guys at tuffy cut me a deal and for half hour of labor they slotted the strut enought to get it green again and replaced the driver side shock that i couldnt manage to get the bolt loose...
so it wasnt too bad the shocks and stuts needed to be replaced, I should have done it when i did the lift... but total cost for new shocks struts inner and outter tierods was about 325 dollars would have been twice that if i bought dealershop parts, and now it rides better than ever... im just glad it broke while i was at a mud bog instead of on the highway doing 70mph... im having the extenders welded to the strut at the seem just for extra security this time...
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Sounds like a very good reason to buy OME struts!
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Man, I don't like the sound of that. Not one bit.
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ah man, i just read this thread coz im intrested in a rear locker.. then i got to the point about wezeles cracked extender, now a little scared to install the BDS extenders i have in my soon to be "family" trail ride! :o
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i'm a little rough on my truck sometimes, no problems with the extenders yet.. they better not f**k up cause that is a recipe to destroy a lot of other bits up front.
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im more worried about highway travel! :( . I kinda wish i could afford OME struts now...
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well, i ran my stuts without extensions for one year with a 1inch spacer up front, i hate the lack of travel and the clunking from topping out but if you really are worried, take your time, do it right once, the 1st time and in the end it will save you time, money and worry.