ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Rhinoman on October 26, 2004, 07:51:43 AM
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I'm currently fitting the Calmini wishbones, I got the kit used and don't have any instructions. Most of it seems pretty straightforward but I am having problems with the front. Should the lower ball joint go above or below the wishbone, above looks tidier but below looks like it would give more lift. I have the (US) drivers side mounted below the wishbone but I now find that the driveshaft is too short?? It gets dark about an hour after I get home so I don't get much time to check it out. Anyone else had this problem?
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It goes on top of the a-arm ;)
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Hey Rhino, I mounted my balljoints under the control arms. It will help when your springs sag, that way you won't have a neg. caster prob. plus you get about a 1/2"more lift.
Good luck,
Kevin
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I just fitted mine the other day without instructions too. I put it above and also used my OME struts with the spacers instead of the Calmini struts. My toe-in was UGLY so a quick align with a tape measure and all was good. Needed a camber bolt on one side to correct camber. It also has a slight lean to the drivers side so a small coil spacer may be the order of the day to fix that. It sits pretty level now front and rear. It rides softer than the OME suspension, more body roll but feels like it has good balance. Going to have to pull it apart though and put more grease in it as the squeaks will drive me crazy. The front springs were easy to do without spring compressors, don't know why some people have problems.
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mine are on the top didnt have too many issues with camber.
I think i probably still have instructions in my tool box might be a little faded and greesy.
I do now have an issue with the passenger side sticking out a bit but that probably is due to the ledge o dropped off the other week, Im off to get the tracking done friday that should sort that one,
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I've stuck one underneath and one on top. Once I've sorted the driveshaft issue I will give it a run around the back, bounce it up and down a bit and then see which side sits best.
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if i recall the last one i did the distructions said fit the stock ball joint back in place on the new super calmini wishbone in the stock position, ie on top..
the only thing with putting it underneath is it will get some abuse from rocks etc and doesnt it have a flat side and a beveled side so if its mounted underneath will it not sit funny, Sorry thinking about this from memory
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if i recall the last one i did the distructions said fit the stock ball joint back in place on the new super calmini wishbone in the stock position, ie on top..
But the ball joint fits from below on the stock arm, it is tucked away though. I had another look tonight, the driveshafts are definately too short with the Calmini wisbones fitted. Refitting the ball joint on the top helps a bit and they should be OK once I fit the axle drop brackets (I'm fitting one bit at a time so I can assess each change) but it looks like the CVs will be pretty much maxed out. So to get more articulation I will have to use the stock wishbones or source/make some longer driveshafts.
I will measure it all again with the diff drop brackets fitted.
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You need to have the front diff drop brackets in place to lower the front diff and shorten the distance to the hubs. otherwise the CV's will be too short. That's why they include the diff drop brackets in the first place.
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You need to have the front diff drop brackets in place to lower the front diff and shorten the distance to the hubs. otherwise the CV's will be too short. That's why they include the diff drop brackets in the first place.
I understand that, like I said I'm fitting one piece at a time to assess each part. The main reason I bought the Calmini kit was to improve articulation. I already have strut spacers and have some longer struts on order but to use the longer struts I will have to refit the stock wishbones :(
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I was going to run the OME struts with my calmini kit ,
I just about worked out that i will reduce the strut spacer to reduce the drop and keep the cv angle aceptable, maybe a 1 inch spacer is all you need,
That way you are replacing the spacer with travel and not moving the drop by much but you will gain travel overall, i struggle on the width of tyre so for now im not bothering with the fron the rear suspension makes up for it ,
failing all that cut your sub frame out and drop your axle some more :-)
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I was going to run the OME struts with my calmini kit ,
I just about worked out that i will reduce the strut spacer to reduce the drop and keep the cv angle aceptable, maybe a 1 inch spacer is all you need,
That way you are replacing the spacer with travel and not moving the drop by much but you will gain travel overall, i struggle on the width of tyre so for now im not bothering with the fron the rear suspension makes up for it ,
failing all that cut your sub frame out and drop your axle some more :-)
The strut spacer doesn't use up any travel so reducing it will just loose you travel. The suspension fitting is currently stalled cos the gf tidied away the centre diff bracket (serves my right for leaving it the kitchen for months). I can't find the d**n thing anywhere. On the plus side yesterday we moved the buggy off the trailer where it has been sat for 6 months since we moved.
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Rhinoman,
If you already had your upper strut mount flipped before installing the Calmini spacer, flip it back. I ran with the stock mount flipped and the spacer for a little while and the shafts were to short with this set up. If you use the calmini spacer with the upper mount in it's factory position, and the Calmini supplied struts your shafts should be fine once you install the diff drop brackets.
Zig
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The strut spacer doesn't use up any travel so reducing it will just loose you travel. The suspension fitting is currently stalled cos the gf tidied away the centre diff bracket (serves my right for leaving it the kitchen for months). I can't find the d**n thing anywhere. On the plus side yesterday we moved the buggy off the trailer where it has been sat for 6 months since we moved.
i think you missed my point m8.
by adding the 1.5 inch longer ome struts and reducing the spacer ,
firstly they will fit without having problemswith your cv angles and the 1.5 inches you take out the spacer you will have back in travel by the ome strut as its longer.
maybe work it so yu have a little more drop or compression.
so basically you will end up with 3/4 of an inch more movement in your front suspension rather than a spacer.
Makes sense to me but maybe not explained in the right terms.
will leave it there
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Just an FYI putting the ball joint on the bottom of the A arm does not change the distance the CV travels the strut is still the limiting factor. If anything it brings the tire in a little. All it does is make the truck sit highter. With a used kit it may be ok but I wouldnt try it with a new kit unless you have a lot of weight on the front or you struts will top out constantly. I run mine with the ball joint on the bottom strut mounts fliped and I relocated the Diff a bit to keep things in line. Ive broken two diffs but never a CV.
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My OME struts have arrived in the UK from RR. I just need to phone the Post office tomorrow and pay the duty with my credit card and I will get them. The missing centre diff drop bracket is still lost somewhere around here, I know it was in the kit when I got it (used). Calmini won't supply a replacement but another club member is going to lend me his to copy. This is turning into a rather long running saga but I hope to get it all together eventually.
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i noticed that with Calmini they say you wont break anything so they wont supply parts, seems abit daft,
They didnt like it when i said you leave me no choice but to go see a local machine shop and have them make me one. they said copywrite and all that and i just said well you wont replace a worn part so what am i to do ,
good luck with the lift mate, if you need to see mine then shout mate
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they said copywrite and all that and i just said well you wont replace a worn part so what am i to do
Yeah, thats it exactly, they end up forcing you to copy it. As long as you don't make it exactly the same then copyright isn't breached. Thats how the Turks get away with, their design does exactly the same thing but they changed each piece slightly.
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Copyrighting a part -- that's funny. Copyrights are for protecting literary, musical, or artistic works. You can't copyright a mechanical part. Patents are for protecting novel ideas (including things and processes) but a bracket isn't exactly novel. Ask them for a copy of the copyright registration.
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well i got my secondhand kit on sunday.
just spent the last 2 days cleaning up and re painting all the bits.
cant fit it though cos rhinoman want to borrow my diff bracket to copy. lol
tony.
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Copyrighting a part -- that's funny. Copyrights are for protecting literary, musical, or artistic works. You can't copyright a mechanical part. Patents are for protecting novel ideas (including things and processes) but a bracket isn't exactly novel. Ask them for a copy of the copyright registration.
Patents are for protecting "ideas" (in general). So someone could patent something, but then the patent would also generally have full dimensioning, drawings, etc. In other words a patent gives a detailed way to copy something (patents go from the general, "idea", to the specific, "drawings"). The protection is when someone does a copy (of your drawings, dimensions, and to an extent your idea), then you can sue to get monetary damages for the infringement. If I copy a patent (for my own use), then the monetary damages are only my use (i.e. one infringement). If I copy a patent, and then resell, the infringemment is every copy I sold.
Copyright (and trademarks) on the other hand are very liberally interpreted. You cannot copyright/trademark an idea, but logos, "terms" (e.g. "Windows"), etc can all be protected under copyright/trademark. Just pay a lawyer enough to protect what you believe you own (e.g. "zuk certified"), and you now own it. Then it comes down to "damages" incurred cuz someone else says they are "zuk certified".
Patents are wonderful (many claim otherwise). They generally protect a manufacturer from other manufacturers ripping off their "ideas". They are also great for the garage "fab" crowd since they detail exactly how to do the job.
Rob
(I've been in rooms with lawyers regarding both ... good patents get lawyers salivating, copyright/trademark get's them calculating hours they will bill ya for).
P.S. I guess this rambling shoulda gone to a non-tech area huh :)
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Thats how the Turks get away with, their design does exactly the same thing but they changed each piece slightly.
Does it mean there is a Turkish company that makes a 3" lift?
If so, can you give me some details?
:o ???
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Calmini sends parts only if you can prove you ve bought the kit.So if its a second handed someone can contact the guy he got the kit from and tell him to order the part.
As for the Turkish 3" lift (copy) here is the link :
http://www.4xfourart.com/eng.asp
From what I know ,someone can buy whatever part he wants.The parts look excactly like Calmini ones.I havent test it,but from what I heared from people that got the kit (3") ,there are some quality details that a buyer must take into consideration,in regards to quality and durability terms.As I said,I havent tested it,but I think the quality of the kit is not the same as the Calmini one.If someone is really interested I can ask for more info.There are at least 5 guys that I know that have this kit on their kicks.
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The guy I bought my Calmini kit from was going to import the Turkish kit, he had quality and supply problems. The Turks contacted me directly you can buy all the parts individually but they only accept Western Union Money transfers. I won't buy anything without the protection my credit card affords.
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As for the Turkish 3" lift (copy) here is the link :
[url]http://www.4xfourart.com/eng.asp[/url]
They must be relying on the color change to get around the copyright issues cause that looks EXACTLY like a Calmini kit :o :o :o
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Well, if that currency symbol on the turkish website is actually for the Euro, then current exchange rates makes that 3"lift kit cost $1159.29, not including shipping... However you can get the front arms for a lot cheaper...
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If I was Calmini I would find some was to sew the hell out of those guys (if it's possible over seas). I personally would buy another Kit before I would buy a single part from a thief >:( There is no doubt that they directly copied the product that Calmini designed and built. >:(
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If I was a 4x4 parts manufacturer,only from selfrespect I would never copy another manufacturers product,at least not as they did.If I would have done that ,I would show to everyone that I m not capable of making something else ,something different.
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If I was a 4x4 parts manufacturer,only from selfrespect I would never copy another manufacturers product,at least not as they did.If I would have done that ,I would show to everyone that I m not capable of making something else ,something different.
Definately a good quality in an innovative company that you expect new products from, but those guys seem to be making their money off other people's hard work. Pretty shitty.
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Well, if that currency symbol on the turkish website is actually for the Euro, then current exchange rates makes that 3"lift kit cost $1159.29, not including shipping... However you can get the front arms for a lot cheaper...
True but trying buying a Calmini kit in Europe - That costs in the region of $1700 in the UK  :( You can understand why people will look for a cheaper source. I'm sure they copied a Calmini kit but if you look closely you'll see that there are subtle differences that mean that they can claim that its not a direct copy - the most obvious is that the spring mounts on the front arms are poly inserts rather than welded in steel sheet.
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True but trying buying a Calmini kit in Europe - That costs in the region of $1700 in the UK  :(
Rhino,
Is that US$ or Euros ?
I just ordered the Calmini 3" and 4:24.1 gear set and shipped to my door in NZ = US$2187.20 (of which US$363.25 is freight), that hurts when we're only 69c in the US$ at the moment :-[ You US boys (and Heather ;D ) don't know how lucky you are ;)
Shane
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walks back to sit by the mail box patiently again ;D
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the most obvious is that the spring mounts on the front arms are poly inserts rather than welded in steel sheet.
That has already caused some problems to those that have the kit....
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Is that US$ or Euros ?
US dollars, no Euros in the UK ;D. Calmini won't ship to the UK you have to buy from the importer who can charge whatever they want. I was quoted £950 but looking at the rates today that may have been for the combo kit, the 3" on its own is around £850 ($1570) + shipping. They usually charge the dollar price in sterling + a small amount.
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That has already caused some problems to those that have the kit....
What problems have they had? that seemed like quite a good idea. Easier to manufacture and less of a mud/rust trap than the Calmini design.
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Most here won't recall the big change to the rear differential carrier bracket. The original set-up (still used in the turkish copy) is weak and prone to breakage. CALMINI changed the design and beefed it up, but not these hacks.
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I still have my bill somewhere for Calmini I told them that and he still said it wont break,
I worry about wear and tear over a few years,
Might get more joy with the uk supplier.
anyway, good luck on the fitting Red Baron and Rhinoman
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Most here won't recall the big change to the rear differential carrier bracket.  The original set-up (still used in the turkish copy) is weak and prone to breakage.  CALMINI changed the design and beefed it up, but not these hacks.
Mine looks like that too and my kit wasn't very old, maybe 6 months. What does the modified bracket look like?
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It looks like the one you have  ;D  No one has the first set-up, unless its sitting on their garage floor caused the first run was replaced. ask one of the guys that has the turkish kit to take a picture, cause that's it
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Im seeing a lot of kick/tracker vits running stock kit, they seem to go big on the body lift like 6 to 8 inches and run 35+ " tyres to gain the ground clearance with a 2" pro comp suspension lift.
I dont hear any issues but then again they wouldnt say if there were,
Can`t beat nice articulation thou :-)
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It looks like the one you have  ;D  No one has the first set-up, unless its sitting on their garage floor caused the first run was replaced.  ask one of the guys that has the turkish kit to take a picture, cause that's it
I looked into this some more. I do have the modified bracket, I thought you were talking about the linkage itself.
Mark, if you mean the Leigh Catterick modified vehicles then those are dropped suspensions rather than body lifts. They are pretty well developed now but John Sackley's twisted the rear crossmember round on one of its first outings due to the extra leverage. Leigh's latest is a whole new chassis with the body mounted higher.
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Rhinoman,,yeah it looks pretty good but still a body lift after all but including lifting the engine gear box is a good idea.
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yeah it looks pretty good but still a body lift after all
Its a LOT more than just a bodylift, the dropped suspension lifts the entire chassis like any other suspension lift which gives a lot better breakover angle. The rear shock mountings are modified for longer shocks and the relocated front end is wider. With the strut spacers and extra leverage it will have a lot more articulation than anything painted blue. Leigh has spent many years developing Zuks and a few year developing the Vitara conversion, he definately knows what he is doing. Now all we need is the long awaited Rocky Road version as a comparison  ;D
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you have been reading TOR too much lol. but its still lifting the body :-) the best way to do it i agree.
also agree he knows what he is doing i wouldnt take that route but each to there own,
how come you havant gone that route and gone for hte blue option :-)
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you have been reading TOR too much lol. but its still lifting the body :-) the best way to do it i agree.
also agree he knows what he is doing i wouldnt take that route but each to there own,
how come you havant gone that route and gone for hte blue option :-)
Well any lift will raise the body. I don't think that I'll go bigger than my current 33s so I don't need to go for anything extreme. The stock set up has a lot of potential, the blue stuff was acquired relatively cheaply, having looked over it all and tried the different bits I shan't be using very much of it at least until I fab some longer driveshafts.
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I shan't be using very much of it at least until I fab some longer driveshafts.
I ve been told by someone that was searching for solution for the easy-breaking stock front axle shafts,that front axle shafts from a 2000cc 4cyl or V6 (not 100% sure for the V6) are stronger and 1" longer.
He told me that he tried them and they are better cause they have better operating angles.Maybe you can check this and try them.I think that the 2000cc 4cyl model was imported in UK,while not in US.
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front axle shafts from a 2000cc 4cyl or V6 (not 100% sure for the V6) are stronger and 1" longer.
I went down to a specialist Suzuki breaker a while ago and looked at Vitara swb, Vitara lwb, GV 4cyl and Grand Vitara V6 shafts and couldn't see any differences whatsoever. As far as I can establish the only difference between shafts is that the earlier 22 spline shafts have stronger CVs but are weaker at the axle end. I've only broken one shaft in 3 yrs but I don't jump it and there aren't any rocks around here.
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Their is a difference between a Vit and GV front drive shafts. The mid shaft is longer, thicker. The inner CV cup is 2 mm bigger in dia, the flower, cage and balls are all bigger. In Aust anyway, we get the Jap build cars.
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I went down to a specialist Suzuki breaker a while ago and looked at Vitara swb, Vitara lwb, GV 4cyl and Grand Vitara V6 shafts and couldn't see any differences whatsoever.
Check the shafts from a Sidekick 2000cc 4 cyl if you can find it.I dont mean the Grand Vitara 2000cc.
The one I m talking about was  a Vitara SWB (Sidekick in US) with a 2.0L 4 cyl engine.It was wider than the 1.6L and I think 98 model..Here in Greece it was released as "excecutive" series.
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There may be a 2mm difference, I couldn't inspect them that closely, I was expecting a more noticeable difference. Maybe I will have to buy a couple of shafts so I can strip them and check them out, its not the sort of thing you can do in the breakers. I'll have to find out if we get the newer Jap models or not - that may be the difference. I know Wildgoody says he has larger shafts from a lwb. The 2ltr V4 swb wasn't sold over here but we did get a lwb version, I looked at the shafts off one of those.
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Bigger front brake calipers and vented
rotors, not CV shafts, I'm still running
22 spline Japaneese axles and Cv's are
from a motorhome pusher I found and
robbed from