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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: daddyizzle on December 03, 2007, 05:09:15 PM
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I haven't done this but it looks easy in the haynes manual. Thought I'd change the crank and cam seal too. Water pump also. I'll inspect the crank key-way, but I'm paranoid. What if it's distorted?
I read the thread in Zuharri and this forum from April of 07. I'll need to know what size bottoming tap I'll need to clean up the bolt hole on the crank (M12x1.25?) and some loctite 609 to secure the plley to the keyway (or will regular high strength loctite red work?) and some J.B. Weld (I said I'd never use it but others here already tested it and it held up so I'll do it) and some medium loctite for the actual bolt?
Maybe the crank keyway is fine but I want to be prepared for the worst case since I'm going to do it over the Christmas weekend and I want to be prepared for any little problem. My idle isn't the smoothest anyways so who knows what I'll find.
Any tips or advise?
-Adam
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i did this recently on my 1.3L and found the haynes manual pretty clear.
i replaced the crank seal also and you should have no trouble picking the old one out.
i did not use loctite on the key/crank sprocket.
look over the crank and cam positioning closely as you install the new belt, and crank the motor around as described and recheck.
it was easier than some belt replacements i've done.
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Did you at least put locktite on the crank bolt? I suppose it's possible that the p.o. used locktite of some sort on it on a prior change so who knows what I may run across. I ordered an extra woodruff key to to be safe. What ever I do, I don't want to take it apart, find everything good and put it back together-- then after everything runs perfect, 2 months down the road have the pulley come loose and waller out the keyway. ::)
-Adam
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i used no loctite.
i also found the p.o. had used a gorilla for a mechanic, and spent a lot of time removing broken bolts.
the gorilla apparently forgot to line up the cam sprocket w/the locating pin before overtightening the cam sprocket bolt (almost made new hole) and that left the valve timing slightly retarded.
suzi runs better now.
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I had to use a puller on mine for the bottom belt drive pully kind of a small weird pattern that was the hardest thing, I used loc-tite bearing retainer on the crank and then heated the bottom pully in the oven at 300 deg. for a while took a pair of gloves and it slid right on, torque the crank bolt down good like 95 ft lbs or so I used blue loc-tite on the crank bolt, tighten the belt tensioner a little tighter with your finger than the spring to keep the belt from flopping around at high rpm's, napa belts seem to be a little shorter\smaller dia. than the others I had and gives you a little more bottom end,mine also timed on cylinder number four, my cover was also missing the little rubber pieces on the cover I just used some silcon sealer to keep the dirt out, the timing mark on mine was off also as the rubber must be getting old so I lined it up with the crank (sammie conversion) and filed a new mark on it in the correct spot, have fun.
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Thanks.
I called locktite and got some specs. They said 609 is good to about 5/1000s as is regular high strength locktite. They are both high strength. 660 is good to 20/1000s. I don't see the advantage to using the 609 over the regular high strength stuff I already have on hand. It sounds like either way, it would take heat to remove.
I also don't understand the part about heating the bottom pulley to 300 degrees.
I wonder if I can use the J.B. if necessary and then regular high strength loctite, and then blue for the bolt. The 609 and 660 are like $14.00 for a little tube.
I'm also worried that when I try to break the pulley bolt loose I'll move the crank or something and not be able to get it back where it needs to go and then you know what could happen. I plan on using the rag and chain wrench method to get the bolt out though.
Maybe I'm making it harder than it needs to be. ???
-Adam
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if youve done gears you can do this just remember do not take the center bolt completly off otherwise the pully goes wobbly and you lose your setting
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i also applied a tad bit more pressure on the idler with my finger when adjusting the belt tension (re:mrfuelish), but am confused |removethispart|@ heating anything up.
everything unbolted and removed easily and went back together as well.
still, i used no loctite. it couldn't hurt.
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My bottom belt drive was a press fit on mine it was tough going getting it off, you heat them so they grow bigger and just slide on by hand, no hitting with a hammer. if yours went on with out hitting it on and it was cold I would say you could be in for a problem down the road if you did not use bearing retainer on the crankshaft. maybe it's just me, I like to do it once.
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I was thinking I could get by with just high strength loctite but if you say I need to actually use actual bearing retainer, I'll follow your advise. I think people were saying loctite purple but I also see loctite 609 green. Not sure on the difference there. Hopefully Napa will know and have some. I guess I'll break down and cough up the extra to have it. If there is damage to the key way, I'll try the J.B. trick with the retainer and if no damage, I'll just use the bearing retainer along with the loctite blue for the bolt.
I'll check Napa this afternoon and see about a chain wrench and the bearing retainer stuff. Thanks again.
-Adam ;D 8)
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i must have a different engine ('89 'kick, 1.3L), so my experience may be different.
the crank pulley came off w/4 bolts so i could remove the timing belt cover. no puller used.
crank sprocket bolted to end of crank. remove bolt, slide off sprocket, r/r seal.
didn't "beat" anything back on.
mabe it'll scatter somewhere down the highway........
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My bottom belt drive was a press fit on mine it was tough going getting it off,
At least on the early 1.6's (89) the timing belt gear on the crank is not a press fit. I have had it off twice now to replace the front seal and timing belt.
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i must have a different engine ('89 'kick, 1.3L), so my experience may be different.
the crank pulley came off w/4 bolts so i could remove the timing belt cover. no puller used.
crank sprocket bolted to end of crank. remove bolt, slide off sprocket, r/r seal.
didn't "beat" anything back on.
mabe it'll scatter somewhere down the highway........
I'm sure that you're right - you don't have to remove the centre bolt. The pulley comes off if you remove 4 or 5 8mm bolts. If the pulley is tight and runs true then I'd leave the centre bolt alone. You can check the TDC mark with a screwdriver down the plughole.
The manual shows a procedure to tension the belt using a spring balance. I too gave it a little tension with my finger. ;)
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I'm sure that you're right - you don't have to remove the centre bolt. The pulley comes off if you remove 4 or 5 8mm bolts. If the pulley is tight and runs true then I'd leave the centre bolt alone.
I had to remove the bolt and belt gear to get to the front seal, which was my mission. I just replace the timing belt any time I am in there. Less surprises that way.
You can check the TDC mark with a screwdriver down the plughole.
Yes but how do you tell if it is on compression or exhaust? I used the compression tester.
The manual shows a procedure to tension the belt using a spring balance. I too gave it a little tension with my finger.
I have done that also every time I have replaced it. I haven't had one fail yet.
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I haven't got into it yet. I work alot of hours and get jipped out of alot of weekends :'( A long weekend is certainly rare. I just want to make sure I am ready for a worse case scenario. I found loctite green bearing retainer in a little tube at Napa for $6.00. ;D
Here's what I got: (amended)
New belt, new cover and seal, new crank and cam seals, new water pump and seal. loctite blue, loctite bearing retainer,a new tensioner pulley (I believe thats what it is but I was tired when I ordered it from Hawk so I'll see), and a haynes or chiltons manual.
I think that covers it.
Oh, I 'lll pick up some regular J.B. Weld and a chain wrench from Napa in a week or so.
With the advise here and all the stuff I bought, I think I'm ready, so I can hardly wait. :o
Because of the chain wrench ($36.99 + tax) and the shipping from Hawk (around $12.00) I think I'll have around $170.00 in parts and supplies. That's far less than 1/2 the going price to get it done around here. 8) 8) 8)
-Adam
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I thought i'd share this dangerous comment, as i actually tried it once...
I was pulling a crank out of a bad toyota engine (lost thrust washers, all chewed up, but still turned over).
Put the right size socket on a long handled wrench, and rest it against the frame in the direction that when the engine is cranked, it will loosen the crankshaft bolt. Put the hood down, get in the rig, and crank it for just 1 second and the bolt will come loose from the torque that the starter puts against the engine.
It worked. I'm not proud of how "unsafe" it all seemed, but I already had the tranny out and no way of holding the engine steady while trying to remove that bolt.
Now, for the kids, I don't recommend trying this....
It definitely took the elbow grease out of it...
Now, back on topic. I've changed 3 timing belts in 3 different trackers/sidekicks, and i've always had the kind to just remove the 4 or however many small bolts holding the pulley onto the crank. I've never actually needed to replace the front crank seal, so i've never loosed that front crank bolt in one of these before.
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With my luck, I'd put the wrench handle through the radiator but it does sound like an interesting experiment. :P Quite clever actually. >:D (I told my wife and you've impressed her :laugh:)
Chiltons or Haynes says to wrap the pulley with a rag and use a chain wrench. I better stick with that method.
Or maybe I'll leave it. Motor has close to 150,000 and maybe it was replaced last time. I have the seal. I'll give it some serious thought for sure. "They" always say that since your in there anyways.... These motors get pretty hot... Rubber does break down...
-Adam
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I got the belt off and the crank pulley off as well. I can see the seal is leaking (I think) as there is oil along the bottom above the front of the oil pan inside the timing belt area. I have the seal to replace it but I can't seem to get the crank timing sprocket off. What do I do? ??? ???
I'm also looking at the cam pulley mark. It says that it should line up with the v mark on the camshaft seal cover. My key would line up with that mark but the mark on the cam shaft pulley is on the opposite side of the pulley that the key is on. What does that mean? ??? ??? Can I just mark a line on the pulley from the key out and line that up with the v mark? ??? ???
I'm well past the point of no return :o :o :o
Oh, when I took it apart, both marks were pointing towards each other sort of.
-Adam
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i "locked" the crankshaft with a prybar in the teeth of the flywheel (driver's side next to oil pan) and loosened the bolt holding the belt sprocket.
i did this by myself, but it would be easier w/2 people.
once bolt out, cam belt sprocket should come off without much difficulty.
seal should pry out with small screwdriver.
install new seal by carefully tapping around edge until seated.
tightening crank bolt was reverse procedure- jamming flywheel.
it worked. i used no loctite.
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i "locked" the crankshaft with a prybar in the teeth of the flywheel (driver's side next to oil pan) and loosened the bolt holding the belt sprocket.
i did this by myself, but it would be easier w/2 people.
once bolt out, cam belt sprocket should come off without much difficulty.
seal should pry out with small screwdriver.
install new seal by carefully tapping around edge until seated.
tightening crank bolt was reverse procedure- jamming flywheel.
it worked. i used no loctite.
I got the two step pulley off fine (A.C.). I am having trouble getting the timing sprocket off the crank. I wonder if sleeve/bearing retainer was used. I don't have access to a torch to heat it, only mapp gas. As far as the timing marks pointing to each other, can I just put the old belt back on and turn the crank a full turn until the marks are both pointing close to up and then take the old belt off and allign the marks as per the manual and reinstall the new timing belt ??? ??? I hope you understand what I am asking. Oh, by the way, the previously replaced belt had what I would consider alot of slack in it. Probably a full 3/4 to 1 inch of deflection on the driver side. ??? ???
-Adam
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I just did a head gasket and timing belt for the first time and once apart it was pretty simple. If you decide to adjust the valves while you're in there I found this link to be much more helpfull for setting the valves.
http://www.asianautopartsofaz.com/techpage.html
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adam
what motor are you working on?
if it's a stock 1.3L you can turn the crank all you want without the belt on and it won't hurt anything.
if you removed the bolt on the end of the crank- that holds the belt sprocket on, it should come off with little persuasion.
if it has been glued on or something, a puller sounds necessary.
it seems that something is odd if it all doesn't come apart simply.
does it look like someone has been in there before?
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I just did a head gasket and timing belt for the first time and once apart it was pretty simple. If you decide to adjust the valves while you're in there I found this link to be much more helpfull for setting the valves.
[url]http://www.asianautopartsofaz.com/techpage.html[/url]
According to the manual, you are suppose to back off the valve adjusting screws and nuts anyways so it would then be necessary to adjust the valves. I was going to adjust them anyways. I'll check out the link. adam
what motor are you working on?
if it's a stock 1.3L you can turn the crank all you want without the belt on and it won't hurt anything.
if you removed the bolt on the end of the crank- that holds the belt sprocket on, it should come off with little persuasion.
if it has been glued on or something, a puller sounds necessary.
it seems that something is odd if it all doesn't come apart simply.
does it look like someone has been in there before?
It's the stock 1.3 with almost 150k on it. someone has been in there before because the belts a replacement. Not sure how hold, you never can tell. I can't see how to get a puller behind the sprocket, there is only about 1/8 inch of clearance. I sure as hell don't want to bung it up by jamming something in there and prying it off. I haven't pulled the radiator but may end up doing it. ??? ??? ???
If I turn the crank without the belt, won't it throw it all out of time in relation to the distributor and cam position? Wouldn't my timing be 180 degrees off? I thought I read somewhere in this forum of this happening to people.
-Adam
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I found this in the search. It talks about the problem I am trying to avoid. What you guys are telling me is that if I just leave my crank alone with the mark pointing to the mark on the block, I can just turn the cam 180 so it's mark points straight up to the v. My concern is that the engine ran pretty good the way it was. When I took the cover off, the cam mark was pointing down and the crank mark was pointing up.
Sorry for being skeptical, I just thought you had to move the two together to keep it close so you can then go by the fsm. Here's the link.
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=14772.msg133545#msg133545
I did get the crank sprocket off. Do I use the retainer on the whole inside of the sprocket when I put it back on? Key and keyway look good. I'm afraid if I use retainer I won't be able to get it off on the next change.
-Adam
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I have the new belt on. I still have the fan and cover off. I adjusted the valves. It won't start. It's like it's fighting to turn over. Only moves a tiny bit. I lined the marks up per the book but I must have done something wrong. I even tried moving the wires on the distributor over. I just moved each wire over 2 holes clockwise and tried starting it, same thing. I put it back and tried again, nothing. I turned the crank until the key was up and the cam mark pointed down and removed the belt and turned the cam 180 and put the belt back on and tried to start it. Nothing. Each time I lined the marks up, I turned the engine over by ratchet 3 times to see if the marks stayed the same and they did. What do I do, I'm kind of stuck. Help!!! >:( :o
-Adam
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Where to start?, You did not have to take the belt back off because the crank turns at a 2 to 1 ratio, you just had to turn the crank once,(360 deg.) line up your marks on the cam up or down with the crank mark pointing up, take plugs 1 and 4 out , stuff some scott towel into the plug holes real tight with a screw driver, turn engine over with starter, when it goes pop let off the key fast, turn crank back a little to top dead center, if number 1 poped out rotor should aim at number 1 spark plug wire, if number four poped out rotor should point at number 4 wire on cap, does this make sence? compression spark bang kinda thing? LOL
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I actually got a hold of Hawk and asked them a few questions. It turns out I had the belt off by one tooth. I had the marks dead on to the pointers. I guess it's always something. They said to try moving it over one tooth each way and see if it starts. I slipped the belt off the cam and rotated it one tooth clock wise and the same thing so I slipped it off and rotated it two teeth back counter clock wise to the other side of the v mark and it started. Turns out my pointer for the cam is a little more than 1/4 of an inch too far to the right so I made a new mark pretty much straight up. They said that the distributor would be fine since I never removed it and it was running before. It had to be how the timing belt was positioned. I guess they were right.
Now the water pump doesn't seem to be turning. ::) ::) I had the thermostat in and out so I'll check to see if I flipped it or if it's bad. It turns from the outside so it's not binding I don't think. I'll check it in the morning.
Thanks for the replys!
-Adam
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The Haynes book is wrong on timing of the cam and crank, crank points up, and the cam
sprocket mark points down, I can't explain the timing mark on the cam cover back plate,
I just know when I did mine years ago the dizzy was off 180* if you follow the book.
Wild
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The Haynes book is wrong on timing of the cam and crank, crank points up, and the cam
sprocket mark points down, I can't explain the timing mark on the cam cover back plate,
I just know when I did mine years ago the dizzy was off 180* if you follow the book.
Wild
Hawk said the same thing about Haynes. Oh well. I marked where the cam can point now so next time the t-belt needs changed, I can line it up. I'll use the f.s.m. instead. I think if you leave the distributor in, you shouldn't have to worry about it being 180 out unless you turned the cam by hand for the hell of it. I put mine at top dead center before I took anything apart. I don't know why I did that, I guess it seemed like a good idea. I think the haynes book would be a problem if you went from scratch like after you broke the belt. Most of my holdup was not knowing what I was doing (and I still don't) and the top mark being 1/4 to 1/2 inch too far to the right. If the mark would have been in the right place, I would have had it on the first try. Live and learn 8) ;D
-Adam
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i hav a little trick for braking crank bolts loose and im sure im gona hear it but here goes.
1. pull the valve cover
2. pull #1 plug
3. turn the crank until both the exhaust and intake valves are closed (compression stroke)
4. turn the crank clockwise until bdc (bottom dead center) counte clockwise for left hand threads
5. heres the kicker: take 3 foot of nylon rope and soak it in oil for a minute and slide it down the sparkplug hole until it stops leaving about a foot hanging out
6. put a ratchet on the bolt and turn it as if you wee trying to loosen it and the rope will compess between the head and piston seizing the engine so that you can break the bolt loose.
7 use an imact to break the bolt loose. not a breaker bar unless its a honda. then you will ned 4 foot of cheater pipe also.
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im sure im gonna hear some poo for it but it does work and it works well. the trick is to have both valves closed while the rope is pressing against the head. i know its taking a chance of damaging the piston if all the rope lays to one side but if you twist the rope as it slides into the sparkplug hole it crates a spiral effect and lays pretty evenly on the piston. also you should be sure to do it on a cold engine to avoid warping a head or something else. once the bolt breaks loose just turn the crank in the oposite direction and the rope pulls out just as easy as it went in. the oil is just to add weight to the rope so that it slides in easer. you could need more than 2 feet of rope in the cylander though depending on the size of the engine.
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Actualy I've hear of doing that before.
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ive been told not to do it with an aluminum engine but i did on a honda civic and it worked out. took a serious amount of effort though. when it finaly gave it sounded like i broke the crank. i was told to do it only on the #1 cyl because its closest to the balancer. if you were to do it to any other piston you could easily warp or brake the crank shaft.