ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: spyder0069 on December 29, 2007, 09:11:09 PM
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Hey guys. This is my first post. I did search through the forum but did not find an answer to this. I just bought a beater 92 jx sidekick 4wd (8v motor) as a secondary vehicle for the snow here in IL and for some trail riding in the summer. I got it for $1075 (ebay)and the guy threw in some decent 235x75x15 tires for an extra $150 (this is definately a low budget project). Today I installed 1.5" coil spring spacers (and flipped the front mounts) to gain some lift. The 235's fit fine and had no rubbing previous to the lift and I had good clearance. Now I am looking at what larger wheel I can put under this. Will 30x9.5x15 size tires fit the stock rims or is 235's the largest I can go without changing rims. I am not sure about a body lift later as the entire rear bed was rusted through (leaky softtop) and I had to cut and weld new metal in already so I am not sure I want to tackle rusted body mounts. :^) Also the engine runs pretty cool in the winter here. It never gets to more than a quarter on the temp guage. I had a geo metro once upon a time and ran cool too and I had to put the cardboard infront of the radiator. Is this pretty typical of these suzuki engines? 4wd works good on it and it has the auto hubs and so far no problems. I do have to get use to how loud it is inside with road noise ect. In the front there is a tube that goes between the frame rails that is rusted through that I have yet to fix. How dangerous on a 1-10 scale is it to be driving it while that tube is inoperable? :^) A similiar tube was rusted through in the rear that had the gas tank mounts. I got some 2x2 steel square tube and welded it in place and fabbed new gas tank hanging brackets that are welded to it. So far this has been a project full of rust and $urprises. The previous owner had put new exhaust piping on it and elminated the cat (hope no one looks under her) and I had to replace the muffler. The check engine light stays lit but it runs well. Also the brake light stays lit but it doesn't leak fluid and the light gets brighter if I engage the emergency brake. If anyone has some tips for me on polishing my turd I would appreciate it. :^)
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Don't take it wrong but you need to break your questions down. I got lost more than a few times trying to read your post. ;)
Might get you more help if we know what you are really asking for, then again it might not. :laugh:
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I suppose it was several questions phased in a discussion. :^)
1. will 30x9.5x15 tires fit on stock sidekick rims?
2. Front round tube across frame (in front of A arms) is damaged. Is this dangerous? (I plan on fixing but hope to hold off till summer)
3. What are the common issues with the check engine light on but no apparent problems?
4. Same goes with the brake warning light?
5. Will the current 235's be weak on a medium difficulty trail?
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if 235's fit stock rims, then i think 30x9.5's should also- similar width (i think 235's = |removethispart|@ 29x9.5).
jeep cj rims fit mine and can be real cheap, i got my 235/75's on 7" rims for $50.
the front tube on my '89 kick has control arm mounts on it and i would be concerned if it were compromised. sounds like you are quite capable of fixing.
my check engine light stays on too, but most of my smog is removed.
the brake light sounds odd- may be a defective switch at lever or bad ground there?
you can get some good info thru this forum, and it sounds like you're doing fine.
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Thanks for the reply. I am going to keep my eyes peeled for a set of rims locally. If I could get a set of mud tires and rims for $300ish I would probably make the jump. I see your tag shows your running 31's on your sidekick. What was your impression when you switched from the 235's to 31s. Do you feel there was a considerable difference performance wise between the two to justify the cost?
--Yea the A arms mount to the tube on the other side of the frame rail. The tube on that side appears fine and its welded into the frame on both sides (its a boxed frame). So the tube runs through the frame to the other side and is eaten out the middle. Instead of using the square tube I think I should probably get the same size round tube and weld it into place. I am just learning to weld myself (this kick is giving me plenty of opportunities) and only have a little 50 amp stick welder which was $100 new. My beads look like crap but they seem to hold well. :^)
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i just mounted 30 x 9.5 x 15 on my tracker rims no problem without a lift they just clear the wheelwells under flex without a lift il post pics if i get a chance today
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here is my cardomain that has a pic of them mounted. see pic 30x9.5x15
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2934945/1
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3. What are the common issues with the check engine light on but no apparent problems?
The Check Engine Light msay have been tripped by mileage. There should be a reset switch under the dash. A search should turn up a photo or two of where to find the switch.
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heres a forum with a pic of the check engine switch
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=13364.0
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I had read about the switch but couldn't find it previously. I looked again today I finnally found it. Man they hide that well! Flipped it and no more check engine light. Sweet. Only the brake light deal left. Do these have a sensor for low fluid or anything like that which could be faulty? (I had a fluid level sensor go bad on a escort before and just had to unplug it).
Here is a couple of pics I took today showing my clearance with the 235's and the 1.5" coil spacers. Keep in mind I have 140lbs of sand bags in the back right now. :^) I have to get the alignment done as the tires bow out at the top now.
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Oh, and this thing doesn't like me. After my proud 6 hours of work on the lift install I pulled it out of the garage and got cleaned up. Hour later I went to go to the grocery store and the locks had froze. Even with wd-40 it took several minutes to get them open. Then coming out of the store I loaded up and the pass door would not close. The latch had froze and wouldn't lock (didn't bring the wd with me). Had to drive home 2 miles holding door while shifting with left hand. :^) After soaking the latches with WD all was fine. Every outing with this has been an adventure and I haven't seen a trail yet! Does do great in the snow though.
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I have a samurai but I guess the ebrake is probably similar. There should be a float type switch in the master cylinder reservoir lid and there is also a little switch by the base of the ebrake lever.
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my door freezes open often i just straighten the latch with my finger and it closes
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Looking at my haynes manual it says the only adjustment on these is the toe-in. Is that true? And if so what do I do about the tires tilting out at the tops after the coil spacer lift? Right now it has some toe-in and seems to drive ok but I am worried its going to wear the outsides of the tires and not give appropriate traction as the tires do not sit flush with the pavement. Ideas?
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My front crossmember was bad too, I used a piece of sc. 40 pipe, cut out the rusty metal and hammered the new piece in. Same thing on my older Tracker, at first, I didn't think much of it and put it off, but one day while checking a power steering leak, a friend of mine was cycling the steering while I was checking the hoses, I noticed the frame was moving back and forth just after my had got jammed between the radiator and the rad support. I fixed that one that day with similar pipe.
Here's the pipe:
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/uncivilized121/Dirty05.jpg)
And on the old one:
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/uncivilized121/Weld05_28Small29.jpg)
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that camber thing can can be fixed w/ camber adjusting bolts.
i used ones made by Specialty Products Company#81250 from my local Brake Supply Shop.
I've been working over my front wheel wells to stop these 31x10.5's on 8" rimsfrom rubing a little and think a litte carefull hammering is gonna do for me. they touch a tad in the rear and i'm slowly working that out also.
i only did a slight lift to avoid buying anything, and i'm going to run it this waythru the next fishing season.
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Great responses! I like the tube hammered through idea alot better than putting in a patch piece. Probably much stronger. Can you get that size at any steel supply place and do they typically know what you are talking about when you say sc 40. Google told me there is a sc80 that is the same outside dimensions with a thicker wall as well.
The camber bolts are the ones that stick through the struts right? I remember seeing some of those and they weren't too expensive. Do they have to be specific to the sidekick or are they pretty universal? Appreciate all the help!
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spyder0069,
There are several vendors that sell camber adjusting bolts. A few are sponsors of this site. Here is a link to a video that walks you through the process of changing the bolts and adjusting the camber.
http://www.iapdirect.com/pictures/EZCAM1.wmv
I got this link from a previous thread on this site. This means there is more information available on this subject. Use the search function on this site to look up old threads on this topic. Happy hunting.
Sincerely,
Nine Pine
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Thanks for the link. I ordered two sets tonight from rocky road outfitters. I wasn't sure if a single pair would be enough and the shipping was about the same for two pair. Always easier to not use a pair than need another. :^) Any of you put on a body lift on a old rusted kick/tracker? If so did you have studs snap or body mounts that are too far gone to work with? The floor on this one was rotted out in the rear and when cut it out I noticed an unattched rubber mount in the area above the rear axle. I assume this was a body mount (there wasn't one on the other side left). So no mount there on mine but has them in far back under the tailgate. I am not gonna tackle a body lift until summer. I am sure the floor damage was due to the old soft top. When the snow melted the other day I noticed it was leaking through the holes that the thread weaves through. I have a new top on order. Anyone have a link to a tutorial on how the tops go on and off? Probably the new top with come with instructions but just in case. I see how it snaps over and so forth but during summer when you pull the top does it completely remove with the metal framing? If so what are you guys using to store your top?
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A couple of answers for you.
The pipe size is 1 1/4" if that cross member is the same dia. as the Sammy has. I installed one in the front crossmember of my Zuki when I built my front bumper.
And for your question on the soft top, check out http://www.suzukiinfo.com/ you need to go too 1995 Suzuki Sidekick Owners Manual, it will give you all the info you need on your soft top.
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I just measured mine with digital calipers and the inside diameter is 1.7" and the outside is 1.95 or so. The specs I saw on the sc40 steel had an outside diameter of 1.5" That would leave me to believe there would be a little slop unless the factory welds eat up some of that space.
Thanks for the link on the top. I will definately check that out.
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Just saw another chart that showed 1 1/4 pipe inside diameter pipe has a outside diameter of around 1.66" so that I am sure is the ticket.
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spyder0069,
The rear body mounts are at the very rear of the vehicle, just in front of rear bumper. In the rear bed area there are a couple of rubber discs that are sandwiched between the body and frame. There are no bolts at these locations, the body rests on the frame.
Sincerely,
Nine Pine
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Do you guys remove your swaybar on your sidekicks when you go wheelin? If so have you come up with a good fast method to do so?
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Do you guys remove your swaybar on your sidekicks when you go wheelin? If so have you come up with a good fast method to do so?
Take it off and throw it away, There is very little difference in handling between a kick with a sway bar and one without one. I have not had one on lil Suzy for 12 years.
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re: sway bar
i have been experimenting with the bar disconnected (clipped the links to the bar w/ coat hanger) only on the street. i can feel the difference as the front works more independently and a little more body roll on turning, but seems stable. i'm leaving it unhooked (the bar/links touch tie rods when flexed) while i decide, and may remove it later.
"body lift"
i used some heavy rubber quarry conveyor belt material for spacers - 3/8" thick - to put between the body and the frame and to replace that bottom dognut with. same material on frame for those non bolted places. seems firm, all lines/wires/hoses fit except drivers side brake line thru the wheel well, which i slotted to drop that clip mount thingy |removethispart|@ 1". lifted 1 1/8".
i know that's not much, but i didn't want to jack it up too much (yet?) and my wheels mostly fit..........
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We had a good snow last night (probably 3-5 inches) and we had to drive 35 miles to a friends house so we took the suzuki. Even with two 70lb sandbags in the back I was having a tough time keeping up with cars. Anything over 25mph and it would get real squirly. I had the 235's aired down to 30 psi (the max psi is 42 maybe I should be going lower than 30?). The short wheelbase definately took some extra attention. Every rut in the snow the sidekick jumped in and followed. :^) We passes several cars in the ditch on the way home. This thing is a tank up to about 15mph. I had a couple of explorers ect that blew past me when they got a chance. Just for kicks (no pun intended) I put it in 2wd when we got there and forget about it. I wouldn't have taken the vehicle a block if it was a 2wd version. I am not sure if a different tire besides the AT's would make a big difference. Do mud tires work well in the snow too? Mostly the issue was with the back end spinning and sliding out. Why is it that the fronts don't spin out like the rears?
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I am wondering if I disconnected the sway bar and got in a accident if the insurance company would still cover me?
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whats the minimum strength winch you guys would use to for a sidekick?
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whats the minimum strength winch you guys would use to for a sidekick?
6k minimum ... might as well go 8k ... I actually went 9k with a summit (aka t-max)
link (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D930002&N=700+115&autoview=sku) ... still to be mounted
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Even with two 70lb sandbags in the back I was having a tough time keeping up with cars. Anything over 25mph and it would get real squirly. I had the 235's aired down to 30 psi (the max psi is 42 maybe I should be going lower than 30?).
Something closer to 23psi would be better.
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I'll have to try dropping the pressure and see how it goes. Some of it is just getting used to the type of vehicle. I played around a little today and notice that when it starts to slide if you let off the gas you slide more. Seems like when it starts sliding if you give it a little more gas the front tires start pulling more and pulls the back end inline. Almost lfeels like a rally car with the rear end sliding around the corners but the front pulling you in the right direction. Lots of fun. Around town I like 4wd low since I am 30mph or under and it gives me more gear ratios to choose from. Anyone know of a prefabbed winch mount for the sidekick?
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your tire pressure is WAAAAY to high ... 30 would be like rolling on concrete tires.
try 18 psi ... 22 when not on slick stuff.
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Even with two 70lb sandbags in the back I was having a tough time keeping up with cars. Anything over 25mph and it would get real squirly.
There is something wrong with your truck, probably the alignment. Sidekicks are very stable vehicles I have driven lil Suzy in all sorts of winter weather including ice storms since 1991. She handles very well in bad weather. I do agree that that 4wd is important.
I had the 235's aired down to 30 psi (the max psi is 42 maybe I should be going lower than 30?).
Snow and ice is not mud and rocks. on slippery surfaces the way to think of traction is PSI "pounds per square inch" This is not the air in the tire, its the pressure between the tread and the surface. In bad weather I would run those tires at max PSI to minimise the contact pad.
On dry pavement you want to find the pressure where the tread rides evenly across the surface. This can only be done on new tires because if the tire is run over or underinflated the excess pressure on the center or outside of the tread will wear away first and the life and performance of the tire will be reduced. Tires are checked like this. Find a place with smooth pavement and a long straight run where you can test your pressure. get some white chalk and put lines across the tread. Drive straight until some to the chalk is worn off. if it is gone in the center lower the pressure, outside raise it. Of course the alignment must be completely within spec for this to work.
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In bad weather I would run those tires at max PSI to minimise the contact pad.
Are you trying to kill somebody? You're really suggesting that he fills his tires to 42psi?
Great if you want to do that, but I would never suggest that to anyone. The last thing you want is a hard tire on ice, thats why winter/ice tires are made of softer rubber. Keep them at the recommended psi(23-26psi) and be careful. a rwd vehicle doesn't act the same as a fwd car, so don't try to keep up if you're not comfortable. My rig isn't great is the snow/ice/slush either, but it's better with 10psi than 23psi
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It did seem better when I had dropped originally from 35-30psi so I think I will continue to drop the psi and test it where there is no traffic. I now remember watching a show on some trucks in the arctic and they all deflated the tires to almost nothing. Just enough so that the bead didn't let loose. I am sure there is a sweet spot I just have to find. It does alright on fresh snow but snow/slush where other drivers have criss-crossed over making trails is where it jumps back and forth.
I think there are a couple of other factors on the snow driving. I haven't looked for a pump yet but this doesn't feel like it has power steering. I could be wrong or maybe its just a week power steering but you do "feel" the road through the steering wheel. And the steering doesn't have any slop and is quite quick. Add that to a short wheel base and a top heavy vehicle and you have to have a light touch on the wheel. I can let go of the wheel while going over railroad tracks, ect. and the steering wheel will bump steer back and forth 1/8th of a turn. Its kinda comical like a four wheeler or go cart.
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Are you trying to kill somebody?
NO
You're really suggesting that he fills his tires to 42psi?
I am not suggesting anything, I am stating absolutely that on slick surfaces the smaller the contact area the more traction you are going to have. It is basic physics.
The last thing you want is a hard tire on ice, thats why winter/ice tires are made of softer rubber.
Air pressure and rubber compound are two completely different things. All though you are right a softer compound is better for traction under all circumstances, it has nothing to do with air pressure and you are wrong snow tires are not made out of softer rubber as a general rule.
My rig isn't great is the snow/ice/slush either, but it's better with 10psi than 23psi
In snow/slush with your tires underinflated the vehicle will be riding on the outsides of the tread. As your traveling down the road instead of the tire cutting through the snow, the center of the tread is going to be pushed up by the snow and the vehicle is going to ride on top of the snow instead of the pavement. This is extremely dangerous. I encourage you to do some research about this so you can make better choices in the future.
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After enough google searching it looks like for slushy snow you should have your normal max psi with the shorter contact patch to cut through the snow. If its fresh deep snow where few vehicles have gone then low psi would be better to dig through and float.
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If its fresh deep snow where few vehicles have gone then low psi would be better to dig through and float.
I am not sure how much, if any, benefit could be gained by doing this. Again you have the problem of tread cupping so instead of the tire pushing the snow out the sides of the tread an underinflated tire would push some of the snow to the center of the tread, I don't see this as being beneficial. Then you have the handling problems created by underinflated tires, not to mention the increased possibility of loosing a bead if you were to get the vehicle sideways. I was born and raised in Michigan where most people know how to drive on snow and never once in my 53 years on this planet have I heard of anyone deflating their tires to drive in snow, virgin or otherwise. I have also driven in my share of fresh snow and I have never had a problem driving in snow with fully inflated tires.
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I am not suggesting anything, I am stating absolutely that on slick surfaces the smaller the contact area the more traction you are going to have. It is basic physics.
ok, I waited, and no one has said anything ...
this is complete crap.
you put 500 pounds on 1sq inch versus 500 pounds on 100sq inches ... it's the same "force"
The statement "the smaller the contact area the more traction you are going to have" is complete bullshiat.
If you're talking about digging down to asphault, then a bicycle tire will get there right away (and it has a very small contact patch). Guess what, people don't run bicycle tires for a reason.
Frictional force has MUCH more todo than contact patch and anyone who understands "physics" would get this.
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sidekicksrock, you need to do a little more research on tire pressure. The next time it snows go drive around with your normal psi then lower your tire psi to 10psi and see how it handles. My Sammy with 32" Swampers at just 15 to 18psi will not go anywhere easy. I lower the psi to 5psi or less and that thing will go anywhere.
spyder0069, as was mentioned have your alignment checked and lower you tire psi to around 20psi and see how it handles. And yes AT tires are not the best choice for a snow tire. My Sammy has Swampers on it and it goes great in the snow but as soon as it is slick it does get squirrelly, but then the locker does not help. The '95 4dr Kick I have does great in the snow but it is stock with studded snow tires.
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I now have the tires at 25psi to try out and then will try 20psi. Tomorrow I pick up my steel tube to fix the rusted out stock one as mentioned in the earlier post. The local steel place said they go by the outside measurement on the closest they had was 1 5/8 which is 1.625" whcih should slide nicely into my my original tube which measured about 1.7" ID. The 3ft long piece is costing me $55 though which seemed kinda high. It was like $12 a foot and then the rest was the fee to cut it and taxes.
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you put 500 pounds on 1sq inch versus 500 pounds on 100sq inches ... it's the same "force"
[/quote]
500lbs on 1sq inch = 500 lbs per sq inch
500lbs on 100sq in = 5 lbs per sq inch.
BIG DIFFERENCE
The reason we air down our rigs is one to get a larger contact area and two to decrease the tread psi contact. When you driving in a soft material (sand, mud, snow) a lower tread psi will allow you to stay on top of what every you are driving on. If you ever driven on sand and have played with air pressure you will know what I'm talking about.
So, if your driving in the snow and the snow is really deep, maby airing down your tires and flloating on top is what you need to do.
But, the most comon approch is to have fully inflated tires so that you have the most tread psi. That will help you dig throw the snow and get down to where the traction is. Also, the thinner the tire the better for tracting psi. This is one reason why a 2wd truck will go through the snow better than a cammaro with wide tires.
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you put 500 pounds on 1sq inch versus 500 pounds on 100sq inches ... it's the same "force"
This has already been addressed so I will not comment.
The statement "the smaller the contact area the more traction you are going to have" is complete bullshiat.
You throw out the word "Frictional Force" but based on your arguments you do not seem to understand what it is.
Frictional force has MUCH more todo than contact patch and anyone who understands "physics" would get this.
This is bizarre, Frictional Force is what we are talking about. On ice, 1,000 lbs of weight concentrated on a small contact patch will provide more traction than the same weight spread across a larger contact patch when all other factors are equal.
There are a number of factors that contribute to tire traction on ice, rubber compound, tread design, etc. all affect traction and the pounds per square inch of force between tire and the surface is part of the equation as well.
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sidekicksrock, you need to do a little more research on tire pressure. The next time it snows go drive around with your normal psi then lower your tire psi to 10psi and see how it handles. My Sammy with 32" Swampers at just 15 to 18psi will not go anywhere easy.
A 32 inch tire (what 10.50, 11.50?) is a huge tire to run on a vehicle as light as a Samurai in the winter. You don't specify what surface you are talking about when you say "I lower the psi to 5psi or less and that thing will go anywhere" It has already been discussed that the off road trucks in Greenland run big wide flotation tires at very low tire pressures. This is of course because they want the trucks to stay on top of the snow, and the way to do that is to increase the size of the contact area between the tire and snow, which decreases the PSI between the surfaces. If this is what you are doing then you are right. However as I stated above a tire at 5 psi is not going to be safe at hwy speeds, and we are talking about snow now not ice.
If I was in a situation where the snow was to deep to drive through I would not hesitate to lower the air pressure in the tires and try to stay on top of the snow. However there can be a downside which is when you stop you are likely to sink into the snow and end up high centered on a mound of snow.
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you put 500 pounds on 1sq inch versus 500 pounds on 100sq inches ... it's the same "force"
500lbs on 1sq inch = 500 lbs per sq inch
500lbs on 100sq in = 5 lbs per sq inch.
BIG DIFFERENCE
[/quote]
still the SAME force ... yes the "per sq inch" is 1/100th but you also have 100 more ... it's still a normal force of 500lbs
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Here, simply go read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_%28engineering%29
Note, the "common" approximation formula for friction has NOTHING todo with pounds per sq. inch ... it simply is the normal force and the coefficient of friction ...
BUT ...
It is important due to broad application to point out the specific case of multi-wheeled vehicles or vehicles with multiple contact patches between the tire and the road surface. The constant coefficient of friction approximation is not adequate to describe real world maximum traction situations. If the normal force is increased, per given area of contact patch, the coefficient of friction decreases and as the normal force decreases, the coefficient of friction increases. If this were not true, then increasing tire width, lowering tire air pressure or increasing tire diameter (all of which increase the area of the contact patch) would have little effect.
Read this part AGAIN
If the normal force is increased, per given area of contact patch, the coefficient of friction decreases and as the normal force decreases, the coefficient of friction increases. If this were not true, then increasing tire width, lowering tire air pressure or increasing tire diameter (all of which increase the area of the contact patch) would have little effect.
This could also be stated to say ...
"If the contact patch is increased, per given normal force, the frictional force increase, and as the contact patch decrease, the frictional force decreases."
To spell it out ...
... If the normal force is increased, per given area of contact patch, the coefficient of friction decreases ...
SO ... 500 pounds on one square inch will have a LOWER coefficient of friction. call this U1
if I have 1 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
... and as the normal force decreases, the coefficient of friction increases.
SO ... 5 pounds in one square inch will have a HIGHER coefficient of friction. call this U2
if I have 100 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
SO ...
U2 * 500 lbs > U1 * 500 lbs
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Note, the "common" approximation formula for friction has NOTHING todo with pounds per sq. inch ... it simply is the normal force and the coefficient of friction ...
Here is a quote from the wikipedia article you pointed me to:
Traction between two surfaces usually depends on several factors including
Material properties of each surface.
Macroscopic and microscopic shape or "roughness".
Force of contact.
Area of contact.
Contaminants at the material boundary including lubricants and adhesives
Notice the third factor there where it says force of contact, that is PSI
To spell it out ...
Quote
... If the normal force is increased, per given area of contact patch, the coefficient of friction decreases ...
SO ... 500 pounds on one square inch will have a LOWER coefficient of friction. call this U1
if I have 1 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
Quote
... and as the normal force decreases, the coefficient of friction increases.
SO ... 5 pounds in one square inch will have a HIGHER coefficient of friction. call this U2
if I have 100 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
SO ...
U2 * 500 lbs > U1 * 500 lbs
WHAT?
Look it is very simple, 4,000lb vehicle 1,000lbs on each tire. If the contact area is 10 square inches then the force is 100lbs per square inch. If the contact are is 20 square inches then the force is 50lbs per square inch.
Now back to ice. when a vehicle is driving on ice many of the components of traction are compromised, One aspect of traction which is not affected is (force of contact) see above. The greater the force between the tire and the ice the more traction you are going to have. Period, end of story.
Look what is your point with all this, If you are saying that a tire with a smaller contact patch on ice does not provide more traction than a larger patch when all other factors, vehicle weight, tread, rubber compound, etc are equal then you are just plain wrong.
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A 32 inch tire (what 10.50, 11.50?) is a huge tire to run on a vehicle as light as a Samurai in the winter. You don't specify what surface you are talking about when you say "I lower the psi to 5psi or less and that thing will go anywhere" It has already been discussed that the off road trucks in Greenland run big wide flotation tires at very low tire pressures. This is of course because they want the trucks to stay on top of the snow, and the way to do that is to increase the size of the contact area between the tire and snow, which decreases the PSI between the surfaces. If this is what you are doing then you are right. However as I stated above a tire at 5 psi is not going to be safe at hwy speeds, and we are talking about snow now not ice.
The tires are 32"x10.50 TSL radials. And I am talking snow. Last year on the first snow fall we got about 4" of fresh snow before I had a chance to lower the air pressure from 15psi in the tires and my Sammy would not get out of it's own way on the way to work. The snow was starting to melt and get slushy so it was not packed slick snow. After work I lowered the pressure to 5psi and had no problems, and the snow conditions were the same.
Want to try explaining why I had more traction after lowering the PSI with your theories?
As for the surface, it be anything. Better traction in the woods around here, won't sink in the sand, made getting to work easy and put the jeep boy's to shame when it broke trail in snow run's.
And remember, these things are light. My sammy is way light and tire PSI is a different thing. Take my "huge" tires for example. Even though it is a radial, the sidewalls do not even start to show a bulge till the PSI is under 10psi. At 5psi they look like a standard radial with 32psi. I have taken them down to 2psi and they still do not look any where near flat.
So a 5000lb rig with the same tires and psi is going to act different than a rig that weighs 2500lb's, or less.
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Want to try explaining why I had more traction after lowering the PSI with your theories?
They are not my Theories, but common knowledge, in Michigan were I learned these techniques and they were confirmed by independent research done by spyder0069
Also, I was agreeing with you in the post you replied to. That whole bit about the trucks in Greenland was confirming what you said was true.
I did not pay close enough attention to what spyder0069 said earlier about deep snow. I was assuming he was talking about road travel. Sure in deep fresh snow lower pressures are better. It would be a very rare situation however where lowering tire PSI would be useful for road travel.
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I run 20psi on my sami all day long maybe 25psi on the highway if I'm going on a long trip I run 15psi on snow and ice because it does better for ME then 20psi and thats with a 31x11.50.
But slush :o that's a different story
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just stating what works best for ME
Ryan
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It would be a very rare situation however where lowering tire PSI would be useful for road travel.
As I have posted, my Samurai will not drive down the road safely with a tire pressure above 10psi in the winter weather. It is all over the place because it wants to wander because it has no traction or grip. I lower the psi to around 5psi and I have control.
You state you are in your 50's. What did your grandfather tell you about driving in the snow?
My grandfather told me thirty years ago that for snow you need narrow tires to help dig down to the road surface in loose snow and wide tires to help in the slick stuff like ice and packed snow. Then again he was an old time truck driver.
But think about it. Take a block of ice and see how easy a razor blade will go from one end to the other, yes you can use the back side of the blade if you want. Now take a 1/2" piece of an old wiper blade and see how easy it is to go from one end to the other, and yes you can use the wiping edge.
By the way, wet melting ice is a whole other subject. ;) Keep you ice near freezing.
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Never mind sidekicksrock, I see you are a flat lander. Things are a bit different when you have to go up and down hills in this stuff. ;)
You only have about a 1300' change in elevation across your whole state. I get close too that driving the 7 miles to work.
I'll tell you something ;)
The snow tire's on my beater I have no idea on their psi, they are not flat and they get me back and forth to work.
But it is stock and when you start modding things you need to change the way you think about things.
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Note, the "common" approximation formula for friction has NOTHING todo with pounds per sq. inch ... it simply is the normal force and the coefficient of friction ...
Here is a quote from the wikipedia article you pointed me to:
Traction between two surfaces usually depends on several factors including
Material properties of each surface.
Macroscopic and microscopic shape or "roughness".
Force of contact.
Area of contact.
Contaminants at the material boundary including lubricants and adhesives
Notice the third factor there where it says force of contact, that is PSI
no, that is the force normal. force is *NOT* pounds per square inch (see below)
The other 4 factors impact the coefficient of friction. It is the fourth factor that raises the coefficient as the area of contact increases. Obviously the other impacts on the coefficient can come into play as well (e.g. hydroplaning is a form of the lubricant and it's effect will "lower" the coefficient as the area increases).
To spell it out ...
Quote
... If the normal force is increased, per given area of contact patch, the coefficient of friction decreases ...
SO ... 500 pounds on one square inch will have a LOWER coefficient of friction. call this U1
if I have 1 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
Quote
... and as the normal force decreases, the coefficient of friction increases.
SO ... 5 pounds in one square inch will have a HIGHER coefficient of friction. call this U2
if I have 100 of these I have a normal force of 500 lbs
SO ...
U2 * 500 lbs > U1 * 500 lbs
WHAT?
Look it is very simple, 4,000lb vehicle 1,000lbs on each tire. If the contact area is 10 square inches then the force is 100lbs per square inch. If the contact are is 20 square inches then the force is 50lbs per square inch.
Look it is very simple, 4,000lb vehicle 1,000lbs on each tire. If the contact area is 10 square inches then the force is 100lbs per square inch. If the contact are is 20 square inches then the force is 50lbs per square inch.
Now back to ice. when a vehicle is driving on ice many of the components of traction are compromised, One aspect of traction which is not affected is (force of contact) see above. The greater the force between the tire and the ice the more traction you are going to have. Period, end of story.
You still don't get it ... the force is the SAME ... it's 1000 lbs.
Force is NOT measured in "pounds per square inch" it's measured in pounds (or newtons). Pressure is force divided by area and is measured in puonds per square inch (or newtons per square meater, or pascals).
Look what is your point with all this, If you are saying that a tire with a smaller contact patch on ice does not provide more traction than a larger patch when all other factors, vehicle weight, tread, rubber compound, etc are equal then you are just plain wrong.
:laugh:
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PSI = Pounds per square inch = Force divided by the area
Units: Pounds
Area: Inchs
If you've ever had a trailer, when you go to disconect it from your truck, what is the first thing you do? You put a board under it. If you dont it will sink into the ground.
The Force is the same, but if you change the area of that force and spread it over a larger area, the PSI is lowered and the board will no sink into the ground.
A skinny tire and fully inflated tire will concentrate that force to a smaller area and will give you more digging power. A wide flat tire will spread that force out and not dig so much and alow you to "float" more.
Now, given the weight of your vehicle and the size of your tire, mabe airing down will give you the performace that you are looking for. Or mabe airing up is what you need. Alot also depends on what medium you are driving on.
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Now, given the weight of your vehicle and the size of your tire, mabe airing down will give you the performace that you are looking for. Or mabe airing up is what you need. Alot also depends on what medium you are driving on.
I'll go with that, very well said.
This does it for me I'm done. I am not going to argue about this anymore.
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Yeah, I don't think there is a perfect answer here. As I hit the slush and so forth probably would want more air, then on the same trip when I hit the fresh drifts at lower speed would probably want less pressure. :^) I think the better answer may be I need more weight in the rear. I have the two 70lb bags of sand. Anyone put more than that in? Also anyone put extra weight in the rear in the summer to gain traction on the trails? Just seems so light that the rear tires spin pretty easy. The fronts grab and pull but its like the rears are outrunning the fronts. :^)
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Yeah, I don't think there is a perfect answer here. *snip* I think the better answer may be I need more weight in the rear.
There may not be a perfect answer, but we all have a resposibility to help each other out, and just because 2 people get better traction with 42psi in their Tracker's tires doesn't mean it should be suggested to everyone else. You have to remember, not everyone has been driving these for a long time, doing something like almost doubling tire pressure could get a new driver into trouble. Driving a Tracker in the winter for the first time can be scary, especially if you switched from a fwd car, or heavy pickup.
Now: having said that, I did do a quick google search and found this writeup on tirerack.com. It does prove your theory, but not for the same reasons, and not as extreme. They recommend 3-5psi for temperature offsets, softer winter tire makeup(winter tires are made of softer rubber). It doesn't say that it will help you cut through the snow better, or put more weight on the surface. I looked in my manual, and Suzuki does not recommend any pressure changes for winter, I'm guessing they assume there won't be a "summer" tire installed ;)
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=168
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It reminds me of a Dr Suess story where one creature is going west the other east and niether would step to the side to let the other past. The moral some psis work well for some psis for others. Spyder0069 experiment safley and find what works best for you ;)
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This is my first winter (heck first month) with the sidekick. Yesterday I put on 75 miles with the tires (235's) at 25 psi and it felt much more locked in. Granted alot of the snow has melted. But even before when it was dry it felt much more loose and of course rode hard. Now I also repaired my tube that connects the front of the A arms that was rotted out too. I think that also played a big factor as the new tube didn't just slide through and I had to put a jack to it and pry it to fit through the other half. That tells me that there is enough force to cause twisting /tweeking of the suspension if that is damaged and I bet could also have caused the loose feeling. The new tube I ended up with was 1 5/8" outer diameter by 1/4" thick wall by 3 feet long. Probably the toughest part on the suzuki now. Installed a CB yesterday. Picked up a small cobra from walmart for $35 and it fit perfectly where the ashtray was (had to pull out the metal ashtray bracket. Picked up a mirror mount antenna from our truck stop and side mounted it on the pillar behind the driver. Ran the antenna wire through the zipper down the pillar, under the carpet, through the center console. Looks decent.
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Oh yeah. And walmart sells a small car fire extinguisher that I found will pop into the glove compartment. I didn't want to mount it out where the 15 year old vandals could get to it if the top was down. :^)
Probably the only thing maintenance wise I have yet to do it attend to the brake rotors. I can feel the pedal pumping when coming to a stop and I am sure they are warped. Years back I had to replace them on a geo metro and the wheel bearing had to come out with it. How about on these?
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I had to replace them on a geo metro and the wheel bearing had to come out with it. How about on these?
On the kick they are independent from the hub.
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About running cool in winter
I found out if you run stronger than 50-50 antifreeze the cooling system will overcool it. 50-50 works better.
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The new 195 degree thermostat has really helped out the winter running. I found another issue which was the driver door was letting in a considerable amount of draft at the back of the door. The u shaped door latch on the body had moved and the door was no longer making a seal. I losened the screws and tapped it in and retightened and it elminated more of the wind noise and cold air coming in right behind my head. :^)
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30x9.5x15 fit no problem here is a pic of mine http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2934945
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30x9.5x15 fit no problem here is a pic of mine [url]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2934945[/url]
hmmm... i dont recall but did you answer my question about the short shifter?
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yea i sent u a comment on cardomain
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yea i sent u a comment on cardomain
cool cool