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ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: Rally_T-115 on March 07, 2008, 08:17:49 PM
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Last weekend my dad and I competed in an overnight winter road-rally in my Grand Vitara, up in the Laurentian mountains. It was an AWESOME rally!! ;D it was my second road-rally in the GV and first big overnighter. I've done a few big overnighters before in my old cars. It had snowed that day so the roads were excellent, with nice big 6 foot high snowbanks in places; rough patches that utilized the bump stops at 50km/h (our stuff in the back was airborne a few times for sure), smooth long straights = 5th gear on snow/ice, and twisty-turny-blind cresty stuff that would rival the Swedish or Finnish WRC events. Coolest part of the night must've been passing by a blue Subaru WRX STi that had the big rally lights on the front, he made a wrong turn and was just coming back on route when we blew past. I kept a close eye on my rearviews and for a place to pull over because I knew he'd be pushing hard trying to make up for lost time, but suprizingly the gap between us seemed to steadily WIDEN for the first while, until we got to the twisty blind cresty stuff and he caught up and passed me. But it was neat that I was able to hold off a big 300hp Subaru for a while.
The 4WD worked flawlessly the entire event and also never skipped a beat before. In fact I never ever hear the "clunk" everyone talks about. There's only two instances that I heard it: 1. When I first got the GV and first good snowfall I went out to an empty parking lot and tried to do some 4WD donuts. It made a couple clunks so I stopped. 2. One time or another I engaged 4WD while at a dead stop and then at "launch" (light turned green) it clunked as the axles engaged. 99% of the time I make sure to put it in 4WD while I'm still rolling, or roll forward slightly to allow positive engagement, at which point the 4WD light would flash once and it would be good from then on.
So like I said, no problems with the GV on the road rally. We placed 3rd in Novice class!! (Novice because it was only my dad's 3rd rally as a navigator).
So, we drive home, all is well. Monday comes and I'm back to work, and after work I put the GV up on the hoist to check the suspension and linkages. All is well.
On wednesday, Ottawa gets hit with a goodsized snowstorm. Well that doesn't faze me one bit, I have my 4WD, REAL snow tires (not just bald A/Ts like every other suv owner has), and the aftermarket4x4 front skid. On the way home from work, some idiot left all his snow from his driveway all over the right hand lane of Riverside Drive. There was someone beside me so I couldn't change lanes so I had to "blast" right through it. Foomph! Bah. Nothing to it, compared to the rally four nights ago.
Except that four nights ago, my 4WD light wasn't flashing, and now it is. Now I know what you're thinking: Hose popped off. That's what I thought too. So thursday, after work, I put my GV up in the air, and pulled off the skid plate.
The hoses are all good. I pulled the hose off the bottom of the differential and hooked the hose up an air pressure gauge, and it goes right up to 7psi and holds solid. Releases the pressure when taken out of 4WD too. This tells me that the air pump and all the air lines right up to the diff are holding just fine, no leaks.
I hooked the line back up to the differential. When placed in 4WD, the airpump in the front seems to cycle once per second. So, I teed my pressure gauge into the system and it pressurizes up to about 6.5psi and then the needle drops to about 6psi, motor runs, brings it back up to 6.5psi, drops, motor runs, air drops, motor runs etc. The motor runs about once per second. So it seems to be leaking down inside the differential.
I was so hoping for it to be the airpump or a hose.
Did I miss anything in my diagnostics? Or any other tricks to try?
Something interesting to mention is I still have 4WD while the light is flashing. Today, it seems the light flashes and I have 4WD for about a minute or so, until the pump seems to "give up", and I have no light and no 4wd - even thought the transfer lever is in 4H.
So, now, what are my options?
Just fix it. Whatever that entails, I called the dealer and a front 3rd member with the air mechanism is about $700ish cost.
Do the SOTF-delete conversion. http://www.zukiworld.com/month_030104/feature_tsb_shiftontheflyremoval.htm On a whim, while I was at work I phoned a junkyard and priced out a front diff from a samurai. $150. Nice. But then I read the SOTF-delete article. Yeesh. That seems like an awful lot of work just to get rid of the air-SOTF. I've no intention of changing my gearing, or running bigger tires or doing a lift, or whatever. As you can probably guess I'm not that big into off roading (I have yet to actually go out on a mentionable trail), my big thing is road-rallying, which is why I still have stock ride height, stock tire size, and even the swaybar. Can't I just:
Pull my front diff out as it is now, and "permanently engage it", and get manual hubs. After sleeping on it and thinking about it during the day, that really seems like the quickest, most cost effective option. Has anyone out there done this?
My GV is a 1999, with a 5-speed, so it has the steel carrier (confirmed with a magnet today). While it is apart I can toss a seal into the passenger side of the diff since it is slowly seeping. There's still lots of gear oil in it, I changed all the driveline fluids back in late May and I filled the front diff with the front end jacked up at about a 30deg angle to get 1.25L in. When I checked the fluid level yesterday it was still above the fill hole (vehicle level).
So, that's all I can think of right now, any other ideas to consider?
Thanks for any input. It couldn't wait until the fun snow season was over, could it. I wanted to go play in the big snowstorm this weekend too.
James
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I'm in the same boat! (sorry James no answers yet)
'98 V6 5-Speed GV complete with factory clunk.
I want to change to a manual hub setup, but I want to keep my stock ratios as I more of a 'pinned sideways on dirt at speed' rather than a 'idle up a wall' kind of driver.
I've read the conversion article as far as I get it, I need:
1x 96-98 26 spline Vitara (sidekick or whatever you guys call them) diff center.
1x 26 spline right hand side inner shaft.
2x Manual Hubs
The questions I have are;
Can I install the diff center into the stock GV carrier so that I don't have to dick around with the cross member mount, or will the crown and pinion not line up?
Did the 96-98 Vitaras come with the same ratio as a V6 GV at all?
Are the RH side CV/driveshafts the same between the two models,other than the inner driveshaft length?
Cheers
Phil
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As I understand it, the air enters into a component called the actuator, which pushes the axle lock clutch on the diff left case into engagement. The actuator looks like a large diameter washer, but constructed a bit like the aneroid "can" you get in a barometer, so that the pressure increases its thickness by 3mm.
If you could come up with a replacement for the actuator which would be thick enough to keep the clutch permanently engaged, or just a 3mm thick "washer", that should work.
Alternatively, perhaps you could just weld the axle lock clutch solid?
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So your Front diff is not engauging at all ?
Get someone to go inside the truck and get them to engage the 4wd you should feel the front diff pumpkin move to the right.
Your in ottawa any pics of ur truck? Im in ottawa also. Have a 2001 GV with Long tube headers, exhaust, pulley and lift and alot more.
Josh
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Also on another note. Yes you can permantly enguage the Front axle all the time. You would have to get a shim machined to push the diff over all the time. Im going to get something machined this summer as i am tired of the front end probs. All you do is unlock your hubs and ur done lol.
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So your Front diff is not engauging at all ?
Get someone to go inside the truck and get them to engage the 4wd you should feel the front diff pumpkin move to the right.
Your in ottawa any pics of ur truck? Im in ottawa also. Have a 2001 GV with Long tube headers, exhaust, pulley and lift and alot more.
Actually, while the light is flashing, I DO have 4WD. In this weather it's pretty obvious when it's not working. But it only lasts for about a minute, then the front diff disengages, and the light goes out. If I quickly shift to 2H then back to 4H, I have 4WD back for another minute.
Yeah I did that, feel the diff casing while someone shifts to 4WD, and I can feel something moving inside. I do have 4WD for about a minute.
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If you could come up with a replacement for the actuator which would be thick enough to keep the clutch permanently engaged, or just a 3mm thick "washer", that should work.
Alternatively, perhaps you could just weld the axle lock clutch solid?
Also on another note. Yes you can permantly enguage the Front axle all the time. You would have to get a shim machined to push the diff over all the time. Im going to get something machined this summer as i am tired of the front end probs. All you do is unlock your hubs and ur done lol.
Anyone know of any close-ups of the front diff assembly showing how the air-actuator works?
Some sort of shim seems like the best bet (as long as it won't lunch itself), or maybe welding something inside. That's the answer I was looking for! Any cons of doing this?
Now I just need some dimentions, a machine shop (they seem to have gone the way of the Dodo around here), some manual hubs and I'm pretty much all set.
It's too bad these diffs don't have a normal "inspection cover" that I could pop off and have a peek inside to make sure that everything else with the diff is still ok. But I guess it's a lot easier to set backlash with the 3rd member out on the workbench.
James
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junk setups.. my 4wd light has always flashed since i bought it new, before ever wheeling it and modding it. last spring, under warranty i had the dealership look at the setup as the light would flash every 8-9 seconds or so, now it flashes every 3-4 seconds or so. i never had issues with the 4wd not working and could hear the pump cycling, dealer looked for info said they found nothing on this as it 'appeared' normal. i figured with the faster cycling that i'd be back in the shop sooner than later and this thread pretty much confirms it. >:(
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James,
It sounds Like (and I'm probably telling you what you already know here) that you've got an air leak within the diff housing.
I'm liking this spacer idea, if it works it would be much simpler that changing the whole center, drive shafts, getting the crown/pinion setup again, ect. (I'm about 300 miles from the nearest decent mechanic, the local shop is run by thieves and liars)
From what I've seen in the workshop manual, I dont think welding would work.
P.S: Any action photo's from the rally?, I'm particularly interested in racing GV's.
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P.S: Any action photo's from the rally?, I'm particularly interested in racing GV's.
Sorry we were too busy competing to have taken "action" photos. Besides, this was a road-rally, not an all-out performance rally. The idea is precision driving and timing, not all-out speed. Basically in the good sections, you're given an average speed (usually 10% below the posted speed limit) and you must hold that average the best you can. Sounds easy but on the really twisty stuff it can be a real challenge. (In fact some performance rally teams come out to these events to build teamwork and get more seat time in their rallycars. I've heard one of them say that these overnight winter road rallies are just as fun as the performance events, but without the high costs.) Every stop sign, turn, etc requires you to drive slightly faster to make up the time lost at the stop. Check out my little avatar gif there. A more accurate picture would be to take off the helmets, and give the navigator a calculator and pen in addition to the route notes, and have him scratching his head trying to do timing calculations all while bouncing around in the seat on the rough twisty roads. He basically has to tell me to (usually) speed up, slow down(sometimes), where to turn (that's important too).
There are checkpoints (CPs) hidden along the route that you must cross at the right time, if you don't you collect penalty points. Less is better. Most CPs have a one-minute window in which you can cross the line and not collect any points, but some only have a 6-second window.
I'm trying to upload some pics to photobucket, but it's not accepting any uploads today for some strange reason. It says "uploading" and the progress bar says 0% and it just sits there. I've tried several times through the day already. I've got one pic of me with the GV ready to head out on the rally, and a few other pics of some other rally cars in the parking lot before and after an event that I worked at (as a checkpoint crewman) in mid february.
James
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Photos are still not uploading to photobucket, but in the meantime I found a couple videos from a fellow competitor, you can come see them over here in the adventure forum.
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=21023.0
James
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Anyone know of any close-ups of the front diff assembly showing how the air-actuator works?
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian_linden/FrontDiff.jpg)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian_linden/FrontDiff2.jpg)
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If you're removing the third to try to lock it in 4wd, then why not just replace it with a used sidekick one. I got one from trail tough with the correct ratio - wasn't very expensive. You can get the cv/axle shaft from them as well. The install was relatively straight forward, the hardest part was some of the rusty bolts. The entire cost - including shipping, silicone gasket maker, etc was about $450 if I remember right. No machining or welding was required - just wrenching. Took me half a day.
I'm sure you could come up with some way of locking your current one into 4wd, but I needed my car for everyday use and couldn't have it down for more than the one day if possible. I hadn't seen anyone lock the air diff up so I decided to just spend the money and fix it for good. If you come up with a design, please post up because I'm sure others will be interested.
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See, yes; something like this. Actually that was my first intention: just pull that differential out of the case, pull off the R&P, swap them onto a trackick/sammy diff, and pop new assembly back in. I actually called a local junkyard and got a quote on a sammy diff, 8) but then I went online to research what needs to be done, and it always seems to be WAY more complicated than it first sounds. ??? "Oh yeah it's real simple just have a whole tracker as a parts car, part A doesn't quite fit part B so you have to convert the rear too and then part C will be too long so you have to grind the end off..." ETC. >:(
I can't afford downtime either, this is my daily driver as well. I really really would like to have all parts in hand before I start disassembling my car.
So, what did you do? Did you keep your original ratios? From what it sounds like, now, all I need is the manual hubs (first of all), the differential itself - will any trackick/sammy diff fit and accept my GV's R&P, ie, # of bolts match up? And then I need that long shaft for the driver's side, and then the CV shaft itself to "hybridize"? And you say just wrenching, so no grinding was needed?
Installing a "shim" right now still seems to be an unknown, I guess. Once I'm sure I have all the parts to complete the job, one way or another, in one shot, I'd love to take a look and see if it appears to be doable and if so, EXACTLY what size this shim needs to be.
Thanks for the tips, keep the suggestions coming everyone.
James
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Frank84, now that I have time, I'm finding a lot more information on this subject by browsing through your old posts, than I did using the search!! Thanks! Now I just need to hear the magic words "4.3 GV gears will fit in a tracker diff"...
I also saw the photo of the air diff you posted -- saved it to my HD. If it's all nice and exposed like that, it looks fairly easy to tack weld the plate over to make it permanently "on". So much so, that probably within the month I'll be pulling the diff out to see if I can do it. If so it'll save a ton of money and all I'll need to find are manual hubs.
James
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Rally_T-115:
I was able to get a sidekick diff with my original ratio (4.625:1) so I didn't need to swap ring and pinions. You would need the inner shaft from a '96-'98 sidekick, passenger side cv/axle (to make a hybrid one), and the diff assembly of course - all from a '96-'98 sidekick. However, I didn't use the inner shaft and I was able to grind my current one a bit which seems to be working well - but I wouldn't normally recomend this.
Your case is a little different due to your gear ratio. It wasn't available on the older sidekicks. I think you should take a day and pull your current diff and see if you can engineer some way to lock it into 4wd. You could have your current ring and pinion swapped to the sidekick one, but now we are talking more time and money. If you can figure out how to use your current diff you can add locking hubs and be done with it.
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Yeah that sounds like the best plan. Alrighty, off to go find some manual locking hubs!
Oh and photobucket finally decided to accept my uploads, got one pic up of me with the GV before heading out to the road rally. Head over here http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=21023.0
James
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I have the same problem. The 4wd flashes intermitently, but seems to work. Some times just after engaging there is a clunk sound/feel from the front. Has anyone tried replacing the actuator??
In the Front Differential section of the service manual available on http://myvitara.co.uk/ mentions 4wd switching error could be a defective actuator.
I like the SOTF, it has been really helpfull this winter.
Thanks to 01v for posting where to find the sevice manual.
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I didn't try replacing the actuator/pump - but it is about $400 from the dealer which is the same cost as converting the front diff to the non-air version. You don't necessarily loose your shift on the fly capability with the conversion. If the hubs are locked you can shift in and out of 4WD on the move just like before - in fact it goes in even smoother.
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New aftermarket air pumps are on ebay now for $199. Lotta dough to keep a weak link.
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I just installed my Warn premium hubs. So that step is done! :) Almost accidentially way overtorqued the tiny little capscrews to 144 in/lbs but then as I was tightening it I was like "this can't be right" so I checked the instructions again and the max was supposed to be 50 in/lbs. That was close. :-[ Anyways I went over all the bolts with the torquewrench 3x, with a dab of Loktite on each one. The 10mm hub bolts (with the washer and splitwasher) are 25 ft/lbs.
So now the next step is pulling the front diff out and seeing if I can force it to be engaged 100% of the time. Remember I've no intention of changing gearing or installing a locker, all I want to do is delete the SOTF.
Two weekends ago we went for a drive up north near Wakefield QC, then we crossed the river and looked for really twisty backroads home. There was this one road that was really slushy/icy/muddy with lots of soft gravel and tons of potholes. Put it in 4WD and the 4WD light stayed on solid! We were suprised but it stayed on for a good 5 minutes or so before it started blinking again, and it was blinking like a turn signal before the light went out and I lost 4WD. (Back to the way it was acting). Had to put it in 2WD and then back to 4WD and the light was flashing again and it gave up again after another minute.
Anyway, WEDNESDAY is the day I'll be staying after work to pull the diff out and see what I can do. I really hope it's a simple as prying a metal plate over and engaging it into a slot, and then tack welding it into place in 4 or 5 spots around the plate.
James
PS: It makes perfect sense that it would engage even easier, Frank84. If the hubs are locked in then that means the front driveline is already spun up to meshing speed so it should pop in real slick. With the stock SOTF, imagine you're driving at 70km/h or more and want to engage 4x4 - that front driveshaft and big ring gear now has to be all spun up to speed really quick by that synchronizer ring in the transfer case. Ouch! No wonder I have to reef on that shifter sometimes.
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OK, I'm back, after phase-2 of my "simple Axle-Disconnect-delete conversion".
Phase one was putting in manual hubs
Phase two - here.
Phase three - whatever else I still have to do ;D
So the goal was to pull the front diff out and see if there is a way it can be welded or otherwise set to be "engaged" full time.
Take note I've never done this before so I was learning how it all comes apart as I go. So, I knew about the driver's side driveshaft, that was easy.
Then that bitch passenger side. Somewhere I read that it is apparently easier to unbolt the strut instead of the balljoint. Well I prepped beforehand by undoing all the abs wire mounts and brake hose and removing the caliper. Left the disc on and the hub as well, disconnected the swaybar link and tierod. I put a jackstand under the control arm and lowered the car down onto it (yes I'm using a hoist :P ). Bottom strut bolt snapped. Had to heat the knuckle a bit and then pound it out with the air hammer. Anyway, once the knuckle/brake disc was flopping around on the ball joint, raised the car and then started levering the control arm way far down to get the driveshaft out of the diff!! Holy crap I had to go far, it's near impossible to do that without screwing up the seal!! The inner joint doesnt bend far enough. I didn't want to pull the driveshaft out of the knuckle as I had just installed the hubs two days before and I didn't want to take them apart already. I think next time I'll pull the disc off as well. All that stuff was really heavy when you're trying to wrestle that around and wrestle the spring back into position and carefully guide the driveshaft back into the diff and fight with the swaybar. (I didn't know the control arm had to drop down that far.)
Next was pulling the actual diff out. I was about to start taking the catalyst/crossover pipe out make the first turn when my co-worker said "the third member comes out a lot easier when you take the whole case out of the car. Look, just undo this big bolt here, this one here, and these two here". HOLY Jeez, now he tells me, just in time. I've been here on zukiworld this long and never knew it came out like that?? What's wrong with this site? I thought the front 3rd member had to come out, just like the rear 3rd member does - the pumpkin/case stays in the car.
Fast forward some and we now have the diff out of the case and on the bench. I "activate" the actuator gently with shop air, and I can see how the plate moves over. Considered welding but figured the slag would not be good, even from tiny tack welds. We saw that a nice "valley" about 1/8" wide opened up when the diff was pressurized. So then we tried to think of something to hold it over with no air. Like Frank84 said, that wave spring is very light. We need a snap ring or something. Then we noticed that this "valley" doesn't spin with the ring gear. Eventually we came up with:
Zip ties. Two long zip ties, 3/16" wide, about 1' long. I held the diff "activated" with air pressure and wrapped the zip tie around the actuator in the "valley". Then I moved the "head" of the zip tie until it pointed down, cut off the excess, then put in another zip tie directly over the first one but with the head on top, so they're opposite each other on the actuator. I released the air pressure, and the diff stayed engaged!! The "heads" are only very lighty rubbing on a part that spins with the diff, but mostly the wraps themselves are holding the actuator engaged. Another good thing is that the wraps are 100% plastic, not even a metal bit in the head. That way if they fail while I'm screaming down the road it won't grind up gear teeth. I think this'll do the trick!
But first I have to do phase 3:
First off, has anyone here heard of Suzuki TSB # TS 06 05227? Apparently there is a part called a "drive shaft support" P/N 27619-65D00. It looks like a nylon bushing or donut (they call it "the new additional support ring") that is installed before the right hand seal. In anycase I ordered that too with the seal but it's going to be 2 weeks for it to get here. (!?) :( I ended up destroying the old seal pulling the driveshaft out, so right now I'm driving around with no oil in the front diff and the hubs unlocked. At the same time, I noticed my right front shock is pretty much dead. I could compress it all the way and pull it down fairly easily, even though it's not leaking. :( Got to find replacements. Hmmm, something that can take a pounding...
Anyway, once I get that axle support ring and new seal I can fill the diff and try out my simple-Axle-Disconnect-delete and see how it goes. Hopefully it'll stand up to 100+km/h (or thereabouts). Hopefully also there won't be any weird vibrations or anything with the hubs locked in 2WD.
So now I wait... In the meantime, my brother's poor Lincoln was broken by a huge sinkhole.
James
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Looks like you've been strugling a bit there!
The easy way to remove the diff is to just remove the front axle housing and pull the shafts out as it lowers - no need to monkey with the struts or controls arms. Then slide the shafts in as you raise the axle up - two people is a must in my opinion. Even doing it this way I still had my own sets of problems with rusted bolts so don't feel alone there.
Once you get it back together make sure to give us updates on how it works!
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good old front ends on these things..... new air actuator pump to be installed in mine tomorrow morning... ::)
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Oh you found the problem Bzzr2? At least it was the pump.
I'm still waiting for parts to come in from 417 Suzuki -- a new seal and the "drive shaft support" bushing thing that goes in behind that seal. Once I get those, well I might as well replace my dead front struts as well. The dealer told me it would be two weeks -- that bushing is coming in from the states -- so hopefully I should at least have the parts by the end of this week or beginning of next. In the meantime I'm driving around with no oil in the front diff so I'm really really paranoid about always checking the hubs before I get in the car, in case some kid turned it around to 4x4.
Frank84 That sounds like a great idea I'll do that next time I need to pull the front diff out of the truck. Like I said I had no idea the whole thing just came out simple like that. It looked like such a bitch before. What about that rear mount though, do you just undo the two bolts or do you unbolt the mount from the frame too?
In any case, tomorrow morning I'm writing my 310S exam to become a Licensed Mechanic so wish me luck, by the time you read this I might be writing or have written it already. I find out how well I did in two weeks.
James
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Good luck with the exam James!
As for the rear mount on the case - I honestly can't remember! Someone else might know. I do remember I had a small issue with one of the bolts being stuck in it that I had to hammer out so I must have left it attached to the case, pulled the case out, then removed the mount. It might be easier to unbolt the mount from the frame AND from the diff before removing the case. That would give you the most freedom.
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air pump replaced, no more flashing light. wonder how long it will last this time..
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BY JOVE, I THINK WE'VE GOT IT!!!!
;D ;D
Ok first off, anyone here who has grabbed and wiggled the right inner c/v joint where it goes into the differential and noticed how sloppy it is, get this bushing (Suzuki P/N 27619-65D00) and put it in before installing a new seal. It took all the slop away from that inner joint. I am very happy I got it.
So I installed that and the new seal(P/N superseded yet again lol), put the truck back together and finally filled the front diff, tipped back to get a little more than 1L in. Pinched off the air hose so the 4WD light will come on. Ran it on the hoist in the air and the "fix" seems to work perfectly! Put it down and took it for a test drive with the hubs locked, and it drove very well, and there doesn't appear to be any extra NVH running at almost-highway speeds in 2H (hubs locked).
A really nice thing is with hubs locked, shifting at speed from 2H to 4H is way way easier now, I can't describe it, but it just goes in so slick now since the front driveline is already spun-up to mesh speed. Before, I really had to reef on the transfer lever to engage 4H.
I drove it home with the hubs locked (2H of course) and I didn't feel any problems at all. Even had a little "test" for it, it rained a little earlier and the roads were still wet. I came up to a red traffic light and the right lane was open, so I put it in 4H before stopping, and when the light turned green I poured on the coal, not really floored but oh yeah it pulled with no wheelspin, oh yes, my 4x4 works!
So everthing looks good so far, we'll see how things go... Too bad all the freakin' snow is gone now, I've got no way to really test this the way I want to!!
James
PS: I passed my auto tech exam with flying colours.
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BY JOVE, I THINK WE'VE GOT IT!!!!
...A really nice thing is with hubs locked, shifting at speed from 2H to 4H is way way easier now, I can't describe it, but it just goes in so slick now since the front driveline is already spun-up to mesh speed. Before, I really had to reef on the transfer lever to engage 4H.
Mine is like that too. Feels like you need to bend the shifter before it will move. The strange thing is that, once you have put it into 4H, you can shift between 2H and 4H without any effort, even if you've been in 2H for some minutes, which should have given time for the front shaft and diff to stop spinning. Stop, and try again a couple of hours later, and it's back to maximum effort for the first shift.
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Yeah it's weird, it's not like that all the time for mine, sometimes it was not so bad, other times it's really stiff.
Anyway, on sunday I went out with the local 4x4 club on an apparently "stock friendly" trail. I guess what they meant was Jeep Wrangler stock. But I didn't know. I was asking around and they were like "yeah you'd have no problem." Uh-huh. It was my first time going out on a trail like that.
Well the 4WD worked flawlessly! The zip-ties are definitely doing the trick. There was quite a few messy muddy sections on the trail but I made it through pretty much all of it, except this one spot where I was stuck down in these muddy ruts and the left side rut had this rock in it creating a sheer vertical 1 foot "step-up". I am still running half-worn Goodyear Integritys so I had no way of climbing out of the ruts to get up over this rock. There were other rocks hidden in the mud too which were carving up my trans crossmember when I was trying to maneuver a way up. I ended up needing a gentle pull to get up over that rock. So other than that, I had no problems. No problems in the mud or water crossings, (keep it moving, don't touch the clutch when in the water).
Lotsa Heeps, Pathies, and 4Runners in all manner of build, two FJ Cruisers, an XL-7 (2003, with auto) and my GV. The Two FJs and the two Zuks were running very stock looking tires with mine being the worst.
Most memorable moment - Heard over the CB radio just after I finished truckin' through a long section of thick rutted mud: "That little Suzuki with the street tires made it!"
Oh yeah. ;)
James
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sounds like it was a fun run on sunday, wish i could have made it out..
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Opening this back up as my 4WD light just started flashing once about every 4 seconds. Wanted to know how the zip ties are working out. Also had another question on this the 4WD system works on these.
I was under the impression that the driveshaft going into the front diff is allways spinning and when you shift to 4H you activate the actuator pump which locks your front driveshafts.
So I don't see how you could still use the 4WD lever with the allways locked front as it should allways be spinning and the way to activate 4WD would be to manually engage the hubs. What am I missing?
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I was under the impression that the driveshaft going into the front diff is allways spinning and when you shift to 4H you activate the actuator pump which locks your front driveshafts.
So I don't see how you could still use the 4WD lever with the allways locked front as it should allways be spinning and the way to activate 4WD would be to manually engage the hubs. What am I missing?
The front driveshaft is engaged in the TC when you shift the transfer lever to 4H or 4L. Unlike the 89-98 models, it is not engaged in N. The actuator pump is switched when the transfer lever is put in 4H or 4L, and "unswitched" in 2H and N.
So when you shift from 4H to 2H, the front driveshaft will be disconnected in the TC. It will still be turned by the wheels if the hubs are mechanically locked, but the connection to the rear wheels will not be there.
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The zip ties are still working just great. Over the summer on a few occasions I would be able to lock the hubs and it worked just fine. Now that it's winter I have the hubs locked full time now and I can just snick it into 4x4 on the fly whenever I want. And I've been driving the snot out of it and it hasn't skipped a beat. (Mostly drag-racing people at red lights, because when it's snowy and slushy out, now it's my turn!!! >:D So yeah, very happy it's still working.
One thing I did notice though is if I get the driveline all torqued up by some way or another and THEN slip it into 2H, (like making a turn from a snowy or gravel road onto pavement) the transfer case may stay in 4x4 for a few seconds until it clunks and releases. Beforehand, the diff would disengage the front axles so the torque would be released right away, but it doesn't happen now with the Warn hubs. So that, and having to get out to engage the hubs in the summer, are I think the only side effects.
James
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Well since your zip ties are working you should send me your front diff actuator pump since I think that's my problem :)
I already have manual hubs installed, so sooner or later I will probably remove the front diff actuator to lock the front diff permanently. Probably make a spacer out of UHMW.
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Hey there,
I've had a feew samurais & a couple trackers now, but I'm looking for 2.0L+ power and trying to find the weak links of Gen 2. Is this front diff thing a common problem?
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Some people have had unreliability problems with it, others are happy. The most common problem is the air pipe coming off the pump, but there have been a few reports of actuator or pump failure.
There is a so-called "Shift on the Fly Removal" mod you can do - it isn't really SOTF removal - it's air-operated front axle clutch removal - the SOTF is done by the Transfer Case and will always be available.
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Jeremiah, I know you want to build one of these trucks up, so this wouldn't be a problem for you since you'd probably want to put some 5.13's in it anyway, which is the so-called SOTF removal. You basically take out the GV axle and put in a Sidekick axle. It's nice cause you eliminate a weak link AND you get lower gearing for your 31's (or whatever size tire you choose to run)
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could you replace the stock diff actuator with something like an ARB compressor?
(http://www.rocky-road.com/media/arb_compressor.jpg)
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If the pump quits, just replace the pump. The diaphragm inside the diff can only withstand about 10psi. The ARB pump is probably way too powerful.
If the problem is inside the diff itself (say the diaphragm sprung a leak, like mine did) it's probably the simplest fix short of replacing the diff: get some manual hubs, then pull the diff down and just find something to hold the ring over in place of the diaphragm. Like I said all I needed was 2 or 3 long skinny zip ties, they were the perfect width to hold the engaging ring over forcing the front c/v axles to be engaged full time.
Once the you have the front diff down out of the car and opened up the actual "repair" takes probably a minute or two, then you bolt it all back together. You just need a way to hold the diff "activated" while you install the zip ties, best with an air supply and a gentle hand - you want just enough air pressure to keep it fully engaged, you don't want to completely blow-out the diaphragm before you're done!
You can move the engaging ring over with your fingers, it's that light. Seriously this is so simple a fix, if your stock air diff crapped out and the light's flashing and you just want to get 4wd back up and running this pretty much all you need. I mean heck you could even forgo the manual hubs but that means the front driveline would be spinning 100% of the time, even in 2wd, and could cause other problems down the road (No way to disengage front driveline from front wheels). You don't need to run to a machine shop or get something made out of heavy plastic - it's not necessary. Not from my experience so far, anyways.
THAT SAID, my GV is a v6 manual, which means I have the stronger steel case, not the aluminum one. And I'm running stock-diameter tires. The last snowstorm I was out doing parking lot donuts and it did not clunk or bang AT ALL. The only clunk I ever get is from the transfer case - sometimes - when it's disengaging on a hard surface.
Of course if you want to use a front diff failure as an excuse to upgrade your front and rear diffs to higher ratios and make a big tools-and-parts-all-over-the-garage-floor project, by all means be my guest. Obviously you must know what you're doing and what you want. In my case my GV is my daily driver and I don't have a backup car so I had to just fix it quick.
It has not been a full year yet - that's coming March '09. I'm still driving it with the hubs locked full time over the winter - haven't unlocked them since I installed my winter tires! Still slips in and out of 4wd really easy. It really is too bad that I couldn't take pictures or video of how the zip ties are in there, because I'd like to make-up a how-to article.
James
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Rally_T-115, Thanks for the input. Mines actually an XL-7, so I too have the steel front diff. Mine's a daily driver as well So I might go the same route as you have in this case. I have some spare UHMW in the garage and could make the spacer so no machine shop needed. but if the sip tie thing works than there is no point. I'm about to mount up 265/70/16's so we'll see :)
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Had mine on soft beach the other day....
The occasional clunk has turned into something along the lines of 'clunk-clunk......clunk-grrrrrrrr-clunk........grrrrrrrrrrr-clunk' >:(
Each grrrrr is accompanied by a loss of speed as the front wheels lose drive.
My actuator and pump are holding pressure fine, the light doesn't flash and once 4WD is engaged the pump only runs when I remove the air line. So I think the axle clutch is the problem for me rather than the actuator.
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So I think the axle clutch is the problem for me rather than the actuator.
That sounds right to me. I'm thinking that once the engagement surfaces have been rounded by the slippage, the only way is replacement?
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Has anyone just replaced the diff center with on from from a later SQ model eg 04-05?
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There is a so-called "Shift on the Fly Removal" mod you can do
ASMC called it "Shift-on-the-Fly", I call it the "Shit-on-the-Fly". ;)
Don't forget, for those wanting to lock the front diff, the SOTF removal is essential (aside from welding).
All my SOTF-less stuff is on the shop floor, and getting ready to be spiffy'd up before its off to Egay. It was fun while it lasted, but chromo'd Toy axles will definately cure the broken axle problem of the GV.
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chromo'd Toy axles will definately cure the broken axle problem of the GV.
I've got some Toy axles, so I'll probably be right behind ya... and dual case - corrected gearing for 35" tires.... hmmmm.... Looks like I need to learn me how to do a coil / link setup.
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So I think the axle clutch is the problem for me rather than the actuator.
That sounds right to me. I'm thinking that once the engagement surfaces have been rounded by the slippage, the only way is replacement?
I also have the clunk,,,, it is costant in the sand. I have the diff out of the car now. I expected to find broken parts but no it all looks good and the year old zip ties that I hoped would fix were still in place. Has anyone welded the clutch solid? Can this be done?
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Is the "clunk" actually from the diff? There is an engagement hub in the transfer case that is known to produce similar noises, and it also causes the lever to jump from 4-Hi back to 2-Hi.
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It is the front diff. No issues with transfer case coming out of gear. It is loud and makes a clunk,clunk,clunk noise almost constantly when you really want traction. Unlocking the hubs fixes it.
I would really like to fix this for good. Has anyone ever tried to fix instead of replace with sidekick 3rd member? I called around and finding the 96,97,98 from japan with manual is not available in my area(Sacramento). Would other years work? What about a Sami 3rd?
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Is the "clunk" actually from the diff? There is an engagement hub in the transfer case that is known to produce similar noises, and it also causes the lever to jump from 4-Hi back to 2-Hi.
Maybe it is the TC... I replaced the front and rear 3rd members from a 95 sidekick. 5.12 finally, woohoo! Anyhow hit the trail yesterday and the clunk occured about the same as before. This sucks. Any fix for the TC? I was in 4-lo I haven't really used 4-hi.
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There's a replacement engagement hub and gear combo that supposedly fixes it - I think the shape of the teeth were changed. I'll try to find the details for you.
Edit - take a look at this thread.
http://www.auszookers.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4947&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.auszookers.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4947&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Be sure to read through the thread, there are part numbers in some of the later posts.
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I read through it and the authors seem to seperate the issues one is the clunk the other is the shifter coming out of gear.
They suggest replacing the 3rd member for the clunk. Which I have done. And the gears for the slippery shifter.
I have not used 4H enough to rule it out, but seems like an expensive fix.
I get a loud clunk when traction is needed. The diff is open. The clunk noise seems to radiate out through whichever side is trying to turn.
While watching the CV shafts during a clunking episode you can see the shaft try to turn then the loud clunk then the other side will do the same. If you stay on the throttle it starts to sound like techno music. :P
Is the TC chain driven? Does it have a clutch or something in it designed to slip?
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I had my front diff center rebuilt a while ago and it made no difference to the problem.
I Have just fitted a 2nd hand T-case from a 2004 model and the problem is gone. If you can find a good 2nd hand T-case from a post 2002 vehicle for the right price, I think it is more cost effective than rebuilding the old one.
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I had my front diff center rebuilt a while ago and it made no difference to the problem.
I Have just fitted a 2nd hand T-case from a 2004 model and the problem is gone. If you can find a good 2nd hand T-case from a post 2002 vehicle for the right price, I think it is more cost effective than rebuilding the old one.
Good to hear. Thanks for the reply. Is the TC the same in the Tracker and Grand Vitara with any motor option? Sorry to be a pain.
Sean
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the trans output spline countinto the t-case on the manual and auto's are different......
on a v6 anyway, not sure on others
-Lance
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I read through it and the authors seem to seperate the issues one is the clunk the other is the shifter coming out of gear.
That's because there are two different scenarios that can cause the clunk - one is the front diff and the other is the transfer case - the front diff clunk is caused by the air operated SOTF diff clutch jumping a tooth - and the transfer case clunk is caused by the engagement dogs jumping a tooth. IF the transfer case is in 4H it will jump back to 2H, if it's in 4L it can't.
You've already replaced the front 3rd member - presumably you no longer have the air operated SOTF diff clutch - if that is correct, then you're most likely getting the noise from the transfer case. If, on the other hand, you still have the air operated SOTF setup, then, you may still be getting the clunk from the diff.
Is the TC chain driven? Does it have a clutch or something in it designed to slip?
Yes the TC does have a chain, it drives the front output shaft, and as far as I'm aware, no there is nothing inside designed to slip.
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Yes, I replace the air actuated diff. I used front and rear 3rd members from a 95 non jap Suzuki Sidekick, I used the inner long shaft and the CV from the sidekick and swapped everything into my housing. The CV was shorter so I cut it and welded to my vitara CV. I used my 99 housing because it uses 4 bolts on the upper mount and the 95 only had 3, figured 4 is better.
PicnPull charged me $200.00 for everything.
The 5.12 gears feel great I drove it this morning. 5th gear,,,I had forgotten all about it.
I no longer have the 4wd light. I read I need to plug both hoses on air pump. Has this been solved any other way. Does it matter if it comes on or not?
OK so I will loook for a manual TC 2002 or newer. If I find one should I swap the whole thing or just the bad gear/cog? And lastly does it matter what engine?
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If the light is important to you plug the hose that goes from the pump to the diff - or - rewire the 4WD switch on the transfercase to drive the light directly.
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I'm pretty sure the V6's have a different T-case to the 4 cylinder models.
Mine was jumping out of 4WD by the way.
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Thanks for all the help i'm looking for a TC. Im wandering do I swap the whole thing or just the gears?
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I still need more information... I have not located a TC. The local recycler says a 2004 shows a 2.5 motor. I don't think that will work. I have him searching now for newer then 2002. How would I know if the TC has the upgraded gears? Is there a way to check the year of the TC by serial #?
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whatever you find in a junkyard won't likely have upgraded gears. also, find another source or 2 or 3 or 4 to look. not sure if they made the 4cyl model in 04, ???
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The base model should have still been available in '04. The LTs and ZR2s had the V6 engines.