ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Mikerpm4x4 on September 14, 2004, 10:04:13 AM
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My sister just bought a 94 tracker for a steal. However it only starts with starting fluid. It cranks just fine but no fire. Once its running you can drive it all day.
???Any ideas?
We swapped ECMs and fuel pressure regulator. No luck.
Mike
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Some trucks are like that, have you
checked the compression ??? could be low
;) :D :) ;D
Wild
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My sister just bought a 94 tracker for a steal. However it only starts with starting fluid. It cranks just fine but no fire. Once its running you can drive it all day.
???Any ideas?
We swapped ECMs and fuel pressure regulator. No luck.
Mike
Make sure the fuel pump is running when the engine is cranking. There are two modes for turning on the fuel pump crank and run...
-Eric
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Some trucks are like that, have you
checked the compression ??? could be low
;) :D :) ;D
Wild
Naw, once its runnin it hauls ass. It just passed 100k. her other one with the 32s has almost passed 200k...it starts great. Go figure :P
Its definately not gettin fuel on startup. We have a donor vehicle to swap parts back and forth but which parts?
Mike
Mike
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Make sure the fuel pump is running when the engine is cranking. There are two modes for turning on the fuel pump crank and run...
-Eric
What the best way to check that? Pull the fuel line?
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Can I just pull the return line?Will that be accurate? Its a lot easier to get to.
Mike
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What the best way to check that? Pull the fuel line?
you should be able to hear it turn on when she turns the key on.
stu
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Can I just pull the return line?Will that be accurate? Its a lot easier to get to.
Mike
Yeah, that would work for starters. You may be able to have someone stick there head down by the gas tank while it's cranking and listen for the pump to be running. If it's not, I'd get a long piece of wire and run a simple jumper wire from the positive of the battery to the plug in on top of the tank (that's pretty easy to get to) The pump will run non-stop then and if it's a fuel problem it'll fire up after that...
-Eric
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you should be able to hear it turn on when she turns the key on.
stu
I think that depends on the year. On my '89 the pump didn't turn on until the start signal was received from the turning of the key. Then once the engine was started and had oil pressure, the ECM kept the fuel pump relay active.
I believe There's two inputs to the power relay for the fuel pump. If I had my manual on me, I could verify. ;)
-Eric
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Is this multi-port or throttle body FI?
The nice thing about my throttle body FI is that you can just look down the throttle body and see if the injector is firing.
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Another thing you might want to try is check the fuel filter. It might be dirty enough to have low initial pressure.
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Maybe a dumb question but how old is the fuel?
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Another thing you might want to try is check the fuel filter. It might be dirty enough to have low initial pressure.
Its new :(
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Maybe a dumb question but how old is the fuel?
it has fresh fuel.
Mike
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Is this multi-port or throttle body FI?
The nice thing about my throttle body FI is that you can just look down the throttle body and see if the injector is firing.
It is a throttle body and their is no spray. Im waiting for her to get home to check the fuel pump.
Mike
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could be that the pump isn't priming the engine when the ignition is initially turned on. With the engine off, turn the ignition on but don't crank the engine. you should hear the pump run for a few seconds. upon the engine running, the pump may start working but be dead while starting
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I had this problem before, when I did a 1.6 swap into my dad's zuk, I started with the fuel pump, then to the filter, then to the line going in to the throttle body and all was ok.then I checked the return line , no fuel coming out so I concluded the problem was with the injector
first I proceeded to check the ECM. i plugged it into another truck to verify it was working sure enough it did, so I put the ecm back and checked the injector, sure enough it checked out ok(within spec) next step was to check the wires make sure I was getting a pulse, that's where the problem lyed.
no pulse meant there's a problem with the wires since the ECM checked out fine. sure enough, after going over the wires, it turned out the brown/black wire that connects to the ign. coil was on the pos. side instead of the neg. after switching it around it worked out fine.
I'm not saying that this is your problem but if you go through what I did systematically I guarantee you'll find your problem. you know you have spark so it is either your fuel delivery or a back up in your injector circuit. good luck
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It is a throttle body and their is no spray. Im waiting for her to get home to check the fuel pump.
Mike
I just read this post, what you wanna do is remove the fuel line going in to the throttle body( 2 10 mm bolts) and see if their is a pressure build up, but be aware this can be dangerous and messy, make sure to wear goggles and a rag handy to prevent fuel from spraying everywhere, if theirs a pressure then you pump is fine. just to double check I'd turn the key to start just to make sure its pushing as well.
I'd go on to why your injector isn't firing if the fuel thing checks out
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It is a throttle body and their is no spray. Im waiting for her to get home to check the fuel pump.
Mike
How about once it's running? There should be a very well defined cone of fuel coming out of the injector. If not, maybe the injector is clogged or something. If so, then maybe it is some kind of priming type of problem.
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he said it only runs when he squirts ether down the throttle body which confirms the spark so there was never any conical spray coming from the injector unless I misread
did you put the ether in the tank or down the TB?
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The original post stated...
...it only starts with starting fluid... ...Once its running you can drive it all day...
I'm wondering if the injector spray looks conical once it's running.
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Seems like maybe the injector pulse is received from an alternate source on once the truck is up and running.  (Like the pump relay, pre start source / run source).  Maybe the initial pulse source is bad.  An injector noid light would verify that the injector is receiving a pulse on start up. ÂÂ
If it is getting the pulse then it is a fuel delivery problem.
Just don't think a fuel delivery problem would allow it to run around fine after it starts.
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I never could see a cone shaped spray
of fuel from my injector, I could see some
spots hitting the throttle plate tho.
Ether is a spray, I've never heard of putting
it in the fuel tank.
On my 89' you can "hot wire" the fuel pump
relay so it runs all the time, I think it was with
the key on only tho, this would confirm a fault
in the priming pre start opperation of the pump.
I can hear my pump run for about 2-3 seconds
when I first turn the key to the run position, it then
stops if the engine is not started, it's a saftey thing
in case of an accident the fuel pump doesn't keep
running
Good Luck
Wild
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I never could see a cone shaped spray
of fuel from my injector
Hmmmm.... I must be lucky with mine then (knock wood), it's a perfect cone as far as I can tell.
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I think that depends on the year. On my '89 the pump didn't turn on until the start signal was received from the turning of the key. Then once the engine was started and had oil pressure, the ECM kept the fuel pump relay active.
-Eric
I think that is where the problem lies. The ECU is probably not receiving the Start signal. Either the pump is not running or there is no fuel enrichment or timing corrections happening. If it will run OK after it has started then the fuel pump must be OK. I have a vague recollection that the Start signal comes from an extra set of contacts on the end of the ignition barrel but I may be thinking of another vehicle. I will check the manual when I get home
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In my case when my truck could not start but ignition was ok,the fuel pump of not working.A simple way to find out if its working apart from trying to hear the pump noise 1 or 2 secs after you turn the ignition key,is to use a polymeter.Put the two contacts of the polymeter (black-red) to the corresponding two contacts of the fuel pump (dont know how difficult this is,I have'nt raised my fuel tank) and see if the electrical circuit is o.k.
Or just use a portable charger/battery and put the 2 outputs(red -black) to the ones the pump has.If  its ok,you should hear it working.
But again ,I think that if it is the fuel pump,then how the truck can operate properly after the engine starts ....
An other time I had this problem ,(and the sumptom was the same,that is when the engine started,it worked o.k) ,the solution was to change a relay (dont know if I spell it right) ,a fuse anyway (looks like a square of glass about an 1/2 inch
each side.This fuse is visible without opening something
and its close to the front left (passenger side) head light in the engine room,somewhere close to the radiator's upper left side.
These are some hints o.k ? I m not a mechanic,I just remember what my mechanic was talking about then....
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hey man not that it matters or any thing but you've hit your 1000 post, just to let you know. i know waste of time but i wanted to say it because i saw it. pierre
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hey man not that it matters or any thing but you've hit your 1000 post, just to let you know. i know waste of time but i wanted to say it because i saw it. pierre
Yea... still a long way to catch up with Zukpilot! Man that guy babbles! :P Jk Zig
Mike
I will get back to you guys in a couple of days and let you know what we find. Thanks for all the help. Lots of good ideas to check out. Im not really that good a this kinda stuff.
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Yea... still a long way to catch up with Zukpilot! Man that guy babbles!  :P Jk Zig
Mike
bla bla bla, blabla, bla! Babble,babble, babble ;D ;D ;D
Tranlsation; one more for you to catch up to ;)
Zig
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Well we have fuel pressure. I removed the fuel line and turned the key to the start position and we have pressure. I just noticed a clicking noise from a relay under the dash. At the same time the injector and one other thingy by the timing belt. The blue thingy next to the red thingy... ::).The relay is right next to the ecm. I used a test light to compare the problem tracker to the working one and the pink wire with the black stripe blinks with the key in the run position while it is steady on in the good tracker.
Any more things you can think of? ::)
BTW we swapped the relays. We also tried push starting it and that works too. ::) Yep here come the jokes. :P\
Mike
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what years are the two trucks that you are comparing to? pre 91 kicks differ from the post 91's and the difference is in the fuel system relays.
next question is did you get fuel coming out of the return line? if not then the problem may lie in the injector. find out why the injector isn't firing.
when you used ether to start the vehicle did you put it in the tank or did you spray it down the throttle body?
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BTW we swapped the relays. We also tried push starting it and that works too.  ::) Yep here come the jokes.  :P\
Mike
so when you crank the key to the start position does your starter turn over? sounds like your starter is shot if your kick is running after you push start it.which has nothing to do with your fuel or ignition.
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OK, you have fuel pressure before start up, and it runs fine once started.
What is different in fuel supply during startup than while running down the road??? Does the fuel dump in from a different injector to start it? Maybe the injector is just partially clogged not allowing enough fuel to dump in during start up, but enough to allow it to run down the road. Wouldn't the computer automatically adjust for the low flow of fuel while running dow the road?
Confused as always :P
Zig
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My '92 did the exact same thing when the ECM went bad. I'd guess you've got a wiring problem, maybe back to ECM from ignition. ECM tells fuel pump to run based on signals it recieves from the ignition system. Or its a sensor. Have you tried to read the trouble codes stored in the ECM?
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Jump the fuel pump relay, then
try to start it, if it starts, you got
a problem with the start position
and the fuel pump running
Good Luck
Wild
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Jump the fuel pump relay, then
try to start it, if it starts, you got
a problem with the start position
and the fuel pump running
Good Luck
Wild
Could you achieve the same effect by putting the ignition to "On" and jumping the starter solenoid?
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Could you achieve the same effect by putting the ignition to "On" and jumping the starter solenoid?
That doesnt work either! I thought that it should but It dont. >:(
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so when you crank the key to the start position does your starter turn over? sounds like your starter is shot if your kick is running after you push start it.which has nothing to do with your fuel or ignition.
:P Yea the starer works... Im not that helpless... well... ::) ....
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what years are the two trucks that you are comparing to? pre 91 kicks differ from the post 91's and the difference is in the fuel system relays.
next question is did you get fuel coming out of the return line? if not then the problem may lie in the injector. find out why the injector isn't firing.
when you used ether to start the vehicle did you put it in the tank or did you spray it down the throttle body?
On is a 92 and one is a 93. I think I posted earlier that they were both 94s but I was mistaken. Im puttin either in the injector. I pulled the pressure line from the tank off the throttle body.
Mike
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I just noticed a clicking noise from a relay under the dash. At the same time the injector and one other thingy by the timing belt. The blue thingy next to the red thingy... ::).The relay is right next to the ecm. I used a test light to compare the problem tracker to the working one and the pink wire with the black stripe blinks with the key in the run position while it is steady on in the good tracker.
Mike
I think if I can figure this relay clicking thing out the problem will be solved. They have to be related. Any Ideas why they would cycle like that?
Mike
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There's one thing to try. Crank it over for a couple seconds, release, then try again.
That worked for one of my former rigs, when first starting. (Sometimes I'd have to repeat 3 times.)
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::) Already tried that too.
Id take it to a local repar shop but thats where she bought it from... cause they couldnt figure it out. :-/ Im going to go over in a couple of days and look at it some more so... ::)
Thanks for the help so far guys, Though none of it has worked yet I think its helping me narrow it down.
Mike
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You could always install an either
squirt kit like they have for Semi trucks
in the cold weather ::)
Wild
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I'm assuming the dudes you bought it from had the electronics checked out, made sure the ignition system (plugs, rotor cap) and such were OK? Also, as mentioned, make sure the wires are correctly connected to the regulator (Getting + on the - terminal weakens the spark on many rigs.)
If they haven't checked those out, it may be one of them. The electronics will enrichen the fuel mix & allow it to start. If not working properly, it will be hard starting.
(I was betting on that fuel pump, originally.)
...just a thought...
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A faulty temp sender (for the computer
not the guage) could be telling the computer
that the truck is warm/hot and not injecting
enough fuel for cold start, which brings up
a question, will it start when hot without
starting fluid ???
Wild
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will it start when hot without
starting fluid ???
Wild
Nope. You can drive it all day, shut it off and it wont restart.
Mike
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>:( I hate a problem I can't solve
Grr
Wild
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>:( I hate a problem I can't solve
Grr
Wild
No kiddin! How often do you see me post asking questions on how to fix one of these?! ::) I think this is the first.
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This is a puzzler.
I didn't see if you pulled the return fuel line & saw if gas was coming from it.
You did have fuel flowing, with engine off, and ignition turned on? Did you try a pressure guage?
Does it even make an attempt to start (sputter or crank faster)? Did you try the throttle in different positions when cranking?
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After reading all the post i think you had fuel delivery with key in start position. Why dont you try to hot wire the fuel pump so it ran all the time and then start the engine. There should be fuel coming out of the injector also.
If there is no fuel, i suspect that the ECU is not getting power with key in start but you still get spark in ignition because it is not control by ECU. The fuel pump also are not control by ECU.
With ECU unplug, turn key to ON and check for power in the pin with test light. You can check every pin to find out which is power. Then turn the key to start to see if there is power in the same pin or any other pin. All this is done with the ECU disconnected.
You can also do this on the good tracker to verify the result.
Hope this help
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OK, when it runs, it runs well, correct?  It's not running too rich or anything?
When you spray ether down the TB to start it, do you open the butterfly?  I assume you've pressed on the gas pedal and not pressed on the gas pedal when trying to start w/o ether.
Is there a chance there's some really weird vacuum problem or TB gasket leak that's keeping the fuel from getting down the runners (or some of the runners)?
Just throwing some thoughts out ???
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Mike,
I asked my freind Scott (the one that helps me with all the stuf I do to my Kick) to look at this thread and give us some ideas. Here is a copy of the email he sent me last night.
HTH.
Zig
I read through all the posts and these are my conclusions:
"next question is did you get fuel coming out of the return line? if not then the problem may lie in the injector. "
Don't follow this line of thinking!!  Fuel injection is based on a pressurized closed loop system.  It is dependent upon fuel pressure NOT FLOW RATE.  There will always be fuel returning to the tank even when the injectors are working max cap ( though less at WOT)  The return flow is controled by the regulator. SLowing the return rate to the tank down in turn allows for higher pressures and greater volume at the injector. The problem could actually be an injector but this is NOT the way to test it!  besides that, if none were coming out of the return line then ALL would be dumping into the injector and you would notice that for sure!!   Anyway-
I was all with the guy who wanted mike to hard wire the pump "perma on" and test start it until mike said ÂÂ
" I removed the fuel line and turned the key to the start position and we have pressure."
OK where is that pressure?  ie... where did you remove the fuel line to check)  If you did so at the inlet to the throttle body and were actually in the CRANK position (not run)  and found a good amount of pressure, its not a fuel delivery at startup problem. Injectors don't "know" the difference between start and run (so not an injector problem at this point)  but the ECM that controls the injectors does.  Where is the ECM triggered from?  Crank sense, cam sense, Hall effect in the distributor?  I'm not familiar enough with a kick to know but sensory inputs can be faulty and not read unless voltage (the voltage it is sensing at the sensor not like what is in the battery)  is above a certain level. ÂÂ
Some people said there is a differnt ECM mode for start versus run.  If that is true it may hold the injector open longer at start, when functioning properly I mean.  That would require a true CRANK pulse and can only come from the starter or the switch.  I would look in the manual at the ECM diagram and look for a crank trigger into the ECM and verify that it is present in the CRANK position.  As for the relay toggle he heard when going from run to start - if I understood that correctly and that is what he is encountering-  That is probably normal.  A lot of circuits shut down during crank to conserve battery life and protect from eractic spikes or voltage drops (watch your radio and heater while you start the car).  All said  and not being there, it sounds to me like an electrical problem.  The ECM wants to "see" something happen at startup that isn't there.  Something like a signal from the starter or a series of pulses from the dist. to tell it that rpm is above the x level and now I'm running so switch modes.  If you got a manual we can definately walk through it no prob.
Now after all that watch it be a muddobber nest in the injector!!!! ha
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And another from Scott:
Something else he could try, take volt ohm meter(multimeter) and set it to AC and connect across the two wires at the injector. With the coil wire pulled at the dist, hold the key to crank and watch for about 2 to 4 volts AC at the injector. If this is present, ummm well i don't know for sure what next?? But if its not then it is a controls problem from the ECM for sure!!!
later
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One other thing he mentioned when he called last night was the possibility of loosing signal through a bad ignition switch. If a bad conection in the ignition switch was not sending/or sending low voltage while in the 'crank' position it could possibably not trigger the fuel pump/injector etc (like a bad battery connection will give you power to aux. items but when you hit the starter it sparks out.
I have had problems with the whole ignition assembly on the steering wheel that caused crazy shit before so I think this could be a good possibility. Like currently if I hit my hazard lights or right blinker, my wipers turn on and run untill I turn the blinker off :P :-/ :P
HTH,
Zig
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I have had problems with the whole ignition assembly on the steering wheel that caused crazy shit before so I think this could be a good possibility. Like currently if I hit my hazard lights or right blinker, my wipers turn on and run untill I turn the blinker off :P :-/ :P
HTH,
Zig
(offtopic)
Speaking of crazy things with the steering column, whenever I turn on the head lights in my Tracker, the seatbelt light comes on :)
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The Track/Kick has a hall effect sensor in the distributor, Suzuki refer to it as the Crank Angle Sensor but it cannot differentiate between cylinders. I will email myself now to remind me to check the FSM, there is a Start signal but I can't remember if it is from the starter solenoid or the ignition switch. The ECU changes the ignition timing, fuel enrichment and ISC duty cycle when the Start signal is present.
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FSM states:
Hard or no starting (Engine cranks OK)
-shortage of fuel in fuel tank
-faulty fuel pump or its circuit open
-Injector or its circuit defective
-Fuel pressure out of spec
-Faulty air valve
-Open starter signal circuit
-Faulty throttle opener system
-Poor performance of WTS,ATS or pressure sensor
-Faulty ECM
Strike out 1
2 -check for fuel pressure at return hose for 3 secs after ignition switch on.
Strike out 3 as it runs OK once started
4 - needs a fuel pressure gauge
5 - Take cap off when cold, valve should be open, take cap off when hot, valve should be closed
6 - Remove plug from ECU, measure voltage on coupler (B11)- should be 6-10V when cranking, 0V otherwise (black wire with yellow tracer on starter)
7 - throttle valve should be opened at engine stop and cranking
8 - too much to list
9 - possible but doesn't seem likely as it runs OK when started
This is a very brief rundown - the FSM has over 100 pages dedicated to the TBI system. If you need any more info PM me.
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(offtopic)
Speaking of crazy things with the steering column, whenever I turn on the head lights in my Tracker, the seatbelt light comes on :)
It sounds like your dash lights are grounding through the seatbelt light circuit (faulty ground) or the seatbelt lamp is part way out of the socket.
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Have you made sure the fuel pump is priming the system? your pump should humm for at least 8sec's then stop. Hope this helps.
P.S When you first turn the key on.
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Thanks for all the good tips. ;) Im going wheelin this weekend and wont have time try any of these till probabally Monday or tuesday.
Seriosly thanks,
Mike
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I have had problems with the whole ignition assembly on the steering wheel that caused crazy shit before so I think this could be a good possibility. Like currently if I hit my hazard lights or right blinker, my wipers turn on and run untill I turn the blinker off :P :-/ :P
HTH,
Zig
Hey Zig, that's a bad ground in the engine
compartment, try the little black wire on the
Pass Side, front by the washer bottle, it also
goes to the turn signal if you want to trace it.
This solved my wiper turn signal problem
Wild
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Thanks for all the good tips.  ;) Im going wheelin this weekend and wont have time try any of these till probabally Monday or tuesday.
Seriosly thanks,
Mike
Are you taking the "troublesome Tracker"? Maybe it just needs to have some sense knocked into it ;D
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Hey Zig, that's a bad ground in the engine
compartment, try the little black wire on the
Pass Side, front by the washer bottle, it also
goes to the turn signal if you want to trace it.
This solved my wiper turn signal problem
Wild
;DTHANKS!!! That has been bugging the hell out of me ;D
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here's a link to what sounds like the same problem, turns out it was the temp. sensor
http://www.zookpower.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1230
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Mike,
Did you get it going? What ended up being wrong with it? We need an update?
Zig
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I havent had time yo go over and mess with it yet. :-[soon....