ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: ghd23 on July 19, 2008, 05:46:54 PM
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I have a 1993 Tracker, has spark, gettin plenty of fuel and air mixture, timing is on the money. Just won't start, any suggestions? I need help ASAP!.
Thanks, George.
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Does it kick at all? Could your exhaust be plugged?
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Done a compression test yet?
Derek
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To answer both questions from the last 2 replies, I have a brand new exhaust, no potato in the tip. LOL
The compression is a little low, but not low enough to keep it from at least starting.
The truck always ran great, then one day it just didn't want to pull it's own weight, then it just died.
I'm at my wits end, have checked everything, pulled off the timing cover yesterday, everything there was good, checked the lash in my lifters, all good, like I said it's gettin plenty of fuel and spark.
I'm thinkin it has to be the computer, but if that was the case it wouldn't be gettin some of the above, or would it??????? ??? ??? ??? ???
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To answer both questions from the last 2 replies, I have a brand new exhaust, no potato in the tip. LOL
The compression is a little low, but not low enough to keep it from at least starting.
The truck always ran great, then one day it just didn't want to pull it's own weight, then it just died.
I'm at my wits end, have checked everything, pulled off the timing cover yesterday, everything there was good, checked the lash in my lifters, all good, like I said it's gettin plenty of fuel and spark.
I'm thinkin it has to be the computer, but if that was the case it wouldn't be gettin some of the above, or would it??????? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Are you running a convertor? It doesn't matter how new the exhaust is. If your internals melted or broke part and plugged the exhaust it would give you the same symtoms!
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No Converter.
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Anyone!
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check your rotor in the distributer. Some times they can spin loose. It's happened to me once.
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is the cat still on your exhaust or did you remove it ?
If you removed it and are running strait pipe with no restriction , your not building enough back pressure .
If you have correct spark� IE timed correctly , compression and fuel the engine has to run unless its go a big vacuum leak .
have you pulled the codes yet ?
if not you should unless you have disconected the battery since it stoped running . if you did that the ECM will tell you zip other then its working . it should flash a code 12 even if you pulled the cables from the battery .
this will at least tell you the the ECM is there and working
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Bad gas/water in the tank?
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Checked for bad gas, It has run for well over a year with no cat. How ever I did not check for vacuum leaks. Every thing else that has been mentioned has checked out good. I've had several tracker and kicks, and can trouble shoot them pretty good.
But I've never ran into this before, and Man am I stumped. I will get right on the vacuum thing. Will let everyone know.
Thanks, George.
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don’t get me wrong here . The engine will run without a cat . But there has to be restriction somewhere to build back pressure .IE mandrel bent tubing .OR a heavily baffled muffler
Folks un knowingly create a restriction and enough resistance to make things work
another thing to look for if you are running an EFI is possibly a return line being plugged . The return line should carry no pressure . If it does then the engine can run ruffle or sometimes not at all .
Sometimes if folks have done a lift or such a return line gets unknowingly pinched or plugged . I find that most times however when this happens the engine will run for a bit then die
I would also check something else . You say your timing is on and you have spark . But is your spark correct to the timing ?
. Take the #1 plug out and bring the piston up to compression . You can tell this by simply placing your finger over the spark plug hole and feel for compression building .
Once the piston comes to the top , stop and pull the Dist cap . Make sure the rotor is pointing to the # 1 wire . . While you have the cap off , check for signs of cross firing , any hair line cracks in the cap or burnt contacts . Internal cracks that don’t go all the way through can cause cross firing . If you find one , replace it .
Remember the computer doesn’t tell the system to fire it only sends power to the distributor . With some systems it will also tell the distributor to adjust the advance . But if you have a vacuum ,it adjusts by vacuum , not electronically .
Even on these systems though , you have to have the Dist , orientated correctly or you wont get the spark traveling correctly. Thus you can crank and crank and nothing will happen .
As im sure you know , spark has to be check at the plug not at the cap .
hope that helps you out some . you probably know most of what i just said but i thought i would add it for those who may not
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don’t get me wrong here . The engine will run without a cat . But there has to be restriction somewhere to build back pressure .IE mandrel bent tubing .OR a heavily baffled muffler
Folks un knowingly create a restriction and enough resistance to make things work
Don't get me wrong here, but....baloney. These aren't high-RPM motorcycle engines with insane valve overlap. You can run individual tubes from the exhaust ports straight up and out the hood if you want to. It'd be loud as hell, and the horsepower and torque curves may change (likely for the better), but it'd run just fine.
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I agree...my entire exhaust rotted an fell off right in front of the "Y" before the converter. I drove it for months running just the 2 wide open down pipes off the motor. No difference in performance that i could tell, let alone stopping it from running all together. Just gave me a really bad headache from the fumes.
Once I gave mine a tune up and got the rotor in the wrong position. The rotor mounts to the dist. with a triangle shaped socket so there are 3 possible positions. In one position it will do nothing, in another it will backfire, and it the correct one it runs. Might want to check that.
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with a 16 or an 8 ?
your egr valve has to have back pressure to work on 91-95 8V .
without that back pressure , the egr will not work properly . it will kill the egr . you can work around it but the result is the same very poor air fuel mix . if the mix gets bad enough ? its just like closing down the mix completely
now how do i know this ? well i just bought an 89 that had some problems. the engine and system being replaced with a 92 . i limped it home the couldn’t get it to start at all .
a friend who works locally for a performance exhaust shop was over one night while i was pulling my hair out . the exhaust was shot and he ask if i had fixed it yet . Nope i said , i have to get it back running first . She was still rusted out right in front of the cat
next day he called and ask me about the egr ?
i didn’t understand what that had to do with squat but I tested it anyway .
Guess what . New EGR 2 inch pipe with a new cat and she is running right along just fine. Idle is better then ever , no hesitation and always starts on the first crank
The owner of the shop in fact told me he sees this a lot with mods . Folks put strait pipes or high flows on “not just Suzuki’s “ and then cant figure out whey things don’t run right
Must be truth to it because im totally happy with how mines running now
now its been years since i worked on bikes but if i recall its a completely diffrent set up .
but i dont recall them having an EGR
eather way , check it or dont check it up to this fella . mines running and getting 30 mpg ;)
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Any chance this could be a crank keyway issue? I know if they start to get sheared, things go crazy. I know you said the timing is spot on, but not sure how you know that if it's not starting?
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whats in egr?
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The EGR valve consists of a poppet valve and a vacuum diaphragm. When vacuum is applied to the EGR valve diaphragm, it pulls the valve open allowing exhaust to pass from the exhaust manifold into the intake manifold. Some engines have "positive backpressure" EGR valves, while others have "negative backpressure" EGR valves. Both types contain a second diaphragm that modulates the action of the valve. This prevents the valve from opening unless there is a certain level of exhaust backpressure in the system. EGR valves are calibrated for specific engine applications. The wrong valve may flow too much or not enough exhaust and cause emission, driveability and detonation problems.
to see if this is a possible problem . just pench it shut . if its stuck open it will plug it off killing the possible vacuumed leak .
some systems , its not a problem to simply do away with it . not sure about on the Suzuki’s . but on my 4.3 . i just took it off and built a plate to cap the hole in the intake.
if it gets carboned up and sticks open , it acts just like leaving the back vacuum plug of an elderbroc carb . IE she sucks mass air
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Any chance this could be a crank keyway issue? I know if they start to get sheared, things go crazy. I know you said the timing is spot on, but not sure how you know that if it's not starting?
I pulled the timing cover off, I had to pull the crank pulley as you know. There where no issues with the key way.
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don’t get me wrong here . The engine will run without a cat . But there has to be restriction somewhere to build back pressure .IE mandrel bent tubing .OR a heavily baffled muffler
Folks un knowingly create a restriction and enough resistance to make things work
another thing to look for if you are running an EFI is possibly a return line being plugged . The return line should carry no pressure . If it does then the engine can run ruffle or sometimes not at all .
Sometimes if folks have done a lift or such a return line gets unknowingly pinched or plugged . I find that most times however when this happens the engine will run for a bit then die
I would also check something else . You say your timing is on and you have spark . But is your spark correct to the timing ?
. Take the #1 plug out and bring the piston up to compression . You can tell this by simply placing your finger over the spark plug hole and feel for compression building .
Once the piston comes to the top , stop and pull the Dist cap . Make sure the rotor is pointing to the # 1 wire . . While you have the cap off , check for signs of cross firing , any hair line cracks in the cap or burnt contacts . Internal cracks that don’t go all the way through can cause cross firing . If you find one , replace it .
Remember the computer doesn’t tell the system to fire it only sends power to the distributor . With some systems it will also tell the distributor to adjust the advance . But if you have a vacuum ,it adjusts by vacuum , not electronically .
Even on these systems though , you have to have the Dist , orientated correctly or you wont get the spark traveling correctly. Thus you can crank and crank and nothing will happen .
As im sure you know , spark has to be check at the plug not at the cap .
hope that helps you out some . you probably know most of what i just said but i thought i would add it for those who may not
I will do a thurough
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I will do a complete check for back pressure, My exhaust is like six months old, I run a true duel system with no cat (s) I custom built it as I didn't want 2 mufflers coming out of one pipe, I have 1 exhaust pipe per muffler coming all the way from front to rear.
Please keep your thoughts comming!
Thanks Ahead. George.
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Still stumped, I'd pull my hair out if I had any!
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do you have a check engine light on with the key on and the engine off?
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Have you checked to see if the timing marks line upon the crankshaft and the cam? It sounds like the timing belt skipped a tooth, or one of the woodruff keys on either the crank or cam sheared. As for exhaust pressure needed for it to start and run, these engines, and most automotive engines for that matter, will run with NO exhaust. Most have an oxygen sensor, so it will need the exhaust section up to the sensor for it to run correctly, but even without an oxygen sensor (I drove my 1990 tracker for 2 weeks without an oxygen sensor, and it worked fine, just plugged the hole in the manifold), it will still run. I also ran it with no cat and no exhaust.
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It will run without an O2 . In fact wit should run without any sensors at all
But the difference with most is that even when un plunged/ dead , they don’t create a vacuum leak . IE the missing an O2 will just sound like you have a hole in your exhaust.
Now no map ? The engine will run but as long as the vacuum line to it is not left open , it will run , just not telling the ECM to adjust do barometric pressure and effecting the mix .
But with the EGR if you don’t plug it somehow , you get a vacuum leak . If its working properly you can “ depending on the model of egr ‘ simply un plug it . The egr will close and thus no vacuum leak . However if it’s the type that requires vacuum to close then you have a leak or if it gets carboned up and is stuck open , you have a leak or if the diaphragm is bad , you have a leak
Without the sensors the ECM doesn’t know what to do . It gets no feed back so it just coverts to fail safe / limp home , or what ever you want to call it . The engine should run as long as you have no major vac problems
Thus your MPG will take a very large dump giving you 15-18 pall park MPG . But it will run . In some cases if you have the right Distributor , you can even dump the ECM all together and run the distributor in a loop . But the distributor has to have a vacuum advance not an electronic one . I ran my 4.3 that way for years on a 4 barrel before I built the TBI for it . i simply wired the electronic Dist in a loop which made it think the ecm was always sending it power , when infact there was NO Ecm at all .
All an engine needs to run in basic form , is fuel , compression and spark All timed correctly
You have to have those 3 things . If you have that then there is a problem with one of those 3 things .
IE you have Fuel but , bad fuel , bad fuel air mix .
You have to have fuel under compression in the cylinder at time of spark for the engine to run
Compression : low compression or no compression .� bad rings , bad ring clearance , or dry cylinders . IE no oil in the rings . Some engines can actual wash the cylinders dry and not get compression to start .. You have to have fuel under compression at time of spark .
Spark : this can be weak spark , or incorrect spark /firing in a open cylinder . This means your timing is off some how . Either from in correct orientation at the cap OR incorrect alignment of the distributor itself . With engines like the Suzuki that get drive off the cam you can have the cam not aligned properly to the crank thus giving you both a Compression and spark issue .IE the valves are open or in some cases not opening and thus not drawing fuel into the cylinders . In which case you don’t have fuel under compression at time of spark in the cylinder .
If your ECM has taken a dump to the point it will not run the engine then you will not have spark or fuel as the ecm will not send power to the distributor OR send power to fire the ejectors
So basically once you have discerned that you have the big 3 . yet if the engine still doesn’t run , you have to go back and find where your having a problem inside those three .. The key is finding what’s wrong inside those three .
My 8 valave has two marks on the Came sprocket . You align to the wrong mark and you will have compression but it will be out of sink with the crank . Thus giving spark at the wrong time . So its best regardless of the engine you working on to double check that alignment to ensure it is correct with the valve timing and that the distributor is set to fire correctly .
If that is off then your not getting fuel , spark or compression at the correct times .
I know how this sucks . i been there . but in just about all the time , i find im over looking or missing something . Timing is not set correctly , i had a bad vacuum leak . my engine wasnt grounding properly ECM require good ground"S" to work properly .
but again concerning that , you still have a problem with spark .
so if you are getting all three as you are saying the you have to not be getting them all at the right time
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Just thouht I'd throw my two cents in, been a mechanic all my life, 4cyl. engines are really bad to lose compression around 200,000 mi., that is ,enough copm. to start. Put about a cap full of tranny fluid in each cyl. through the sparkplug hole, put the plugs back in and turn it over until it cranks. be sure not to hold the switch to long or you'll of course burn the starter up. This is just a quick fix, it will only get you through for a few months.
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I am going to take a simple approach. Check your fuse box. There is a fuse for ignition fuel injection and so forth. I had my sidekick die backing out and one of those main fuses had failed.
Granted typically for a fuse you expect the sudden off situation like I had versus your slow down but maybe it was a weak fuse not allowing enough current. Go through the box and check all of them anyway.
If that isn't it I would go the route of a bad ground on the distributor or weak coil. Of course it doesnt sound like you ruled out the ecm yet Also if you haven't already you could pull your battery cable for a couple of minutes and reattaching to see if reseting the emc does anything. Grasping at straws there.