ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: aftermarket4x4 on July 23, 2008, 11:16:25 AM
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Back in May after racing the first 3 out of 5 races in a Tough Truck event in Virginia Beach's "Monsters on the Beach" I got fed up with losing to a 800 + or - HP Heep built by a local Off-road shop owner and decided that before the last two races on Sunday I would swap on the 1.6 16 valve turbo parts that I have been accumulating over the previous year. Most of what I picked up came from junkyard s and similar sources including a 1990's Saab turbo, the intercooler from the same vehicle, oil lines, water hoses, down pipe, and that stuff along with some vacuum hoses, couplers, exhaust tubing, home-built exhaust manifold went into my 5 hour junkyard turbo project. I got back to the garage about 11pm Saturday night and had a bite to eat then went out and started working just before midnight knowing I had to make this stuff work by morning or I would not be able to race Sunday. I was working as fast as I could to get it done and took lots of "short cuts" since I did not have all of the parts necessary, but was determined to make this work. I did not have the weld-in bung for the oil return to the pan so I used a 9mm metric socket and welded her in (who ever uses the 9mm deep well anyway?). I did not have all the necessary 2 1/2" and 2 1/4" silicone couplers I needed for the air lines or the bling aluminum intake and intercooler piping so I used exhaust tubing and radiator hoses cut to fit. The exhaust on the Sammy was 2 1/4" and was sufficient for use with the turbo (2 1/2" would have been a little better), but I modified the downpipe I had to connect to the existing exhaust.
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbozuki2~0.jpg)
By about 4am I had everything installed on the motor and just had to figure ut all the vacuum lines and install a Autometer boost gauge I had lying around so I got it all in and by about 4:30 was out taking a test drive! I brought tools with me to adjust the tiiming and ran up and down on a deserted road a few times making adjustments then realized I'd better get to sleep and so I turned in about 5am. After 3 1/2 hours of sleep I got up and loaded the trailer then got to the beach where the races would be held just in time to get into the gate before the cut off time.
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10229/sean1.JPG)
A friend an I ran the Sammy up and down the hard packed wet sand near the water line still adjusting the timing for optimum performance with it getting faster and faster with each adjustment and trying not to let it run too lean or detonate. We also found a few boost leaks and fixed them quickly before the race. I was running a set of 325/60/15 BFG All Terrains for the previous events and though that the wide all terrain tires were really a good choice ....until I hit the soft sand on the course....
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10229/sean2.JPG)
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10229/sean3.JPG)
Now on the hard packed sand it was stupid fast, but in the soft sand it wa a different story. It was sooo fast it would easily beat the average truck and Heep guys, but I now had to be easy on it off the starting line, because unlike the day before it would now spin the tires sooo fast in the really soft sand it would barely move until you let off and the all terrains caught traction. A paddle type tire would have made a huge difference on this really soft sand course! Having to be easy on it was not really my driving style so the rest of the day I was unable to do any beter than 3rd place.....and that meant that the same jeep <-- [alert!] <-- [alert!] continued to dominate EVERY race! ....Maybe next year I'll get him :smokin:
OK, so I was beat, but it was time to get this thing running even better so I worked on relocating the intercooler a little better and relocating the intake to the pass side front corner of the fenderwell to keep it out of the water and mud as well as a few as a few other upgrades.
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbod.jpg)
The fuel pump is the stock 1.6 16 valve model out of a Tracker tank installed in the Samurai tank and the blue circular thing is a Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator (RRFPR) that increases the fuel pressure as the boost increases so that it supplys enough fuel. An APEXI SAFC air/fuel controller is in the near future for it to help optimize the power and make it run even better. A better blow off- valve is also in the near future as the Egay piece of junk I have on there now is leaking and it's not even a few months old!
The best addition was an AEM UEGO wich uses a wideband O2 sensor read by the UEGO gauge that gives a digital readout of the precise Air/Fuel ratio. This allows you to tune the vehicle better and you will know whether it is runing too rich or too lean and dial it in a bit better. Both of these items have made a noticeable difference in tuning as I am no longer worried about running too lean and burning up a piston.
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboa.jpg)
The motor has approximately 30,000 miles on it and is a JDM (Japanese import motor) and has a 1995 intake manifold and accessories, wiring and computer to control it which are all stock. The Turbo and intercooler are junkyard Saab parts and have worked great with minimal if any turbo lag.......and yes that is a Ford Super Duty after market center cap with a K & N filter installed on it....works good!
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbob.jpg)
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboc.jpg)
The mud is from the last Mud Bog at Gravedigger's and TurboZuki got 1st place in the 4 & 6 Cylinder classes and here's a link to pic's and video:
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,84833.0/all.html (http://"http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,84833.0/all.html")
As you can see from the pic, the Turbo gives it enough power to fly through the mud and even catch air in the mud pit....Way too much fun!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/SloSubie/MMP/Jul%205%20Copywritten/DAMPJul520080790copy.jpg)
The Samurai is completely street friendly and still gets 20+ MPG, but I choose to run the higher octane fuel with the turbo. None of the low-end torque/power has been lost and there is almost no noticeable turbo lag at all. The Turbo isn not even noticeable for daily driving unless you punch it to pass someone or really accelerate from a stop light. I have had it up to 100 MPH and it was still accelerating! I'd like to take it somewhere to test the maximum speed without fear of a wreckless driving ticket! So far other than the cost and time involved in swapping on a turbo I cannot say there are many negatives to this swap, but no matter what it has to be tuned properly otherwise you will create problems for yourself. It is FASTER THAN ANY OTHER SAMURAI I HAVE EVER DRIVEN! Power estimate is well over 150 HP and I will take it to the dyno when I have time....sometime after GonZookin.
Here's the disclaimer: I am not a turbo guru and just want to share the experiances I have had with others as well as the knowledge I have gained in building this Samurai. ;)
Sean (Having too much Fun with TurboZuki!) DeVinney
AFTERMARKET4X4|removethispart||removethispart|@cox.net
A big thanks to Projectphoto.com and kwfilms.com for the pic's!
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That makes me think about a Turbo setup for my Tracker again... Nice write up. :)
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That makes me think about a Turbo setup for my Tracker again... Nice write up. :)
x2 Damn you Sean! :P :laugh:
You don't have a part # off that turbo do you?
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8) That is BAD ASS 8) Get you some better sand tires and take out the Jeep at the next event >:D
Zig
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:laugh: anyone building a baha zuk? love that air as well as the photo showing the peep eating your dust lol
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Nice Work ! What type rising rate fuel pres reg are you using?
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What i would like to know is when will this turbo "kit" be available on aftermarket 4x4? I keep dreaming of more power, and a turbo seems the best way to go......but only if u build it your self.
That ride is sweet!
Jeff
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Nice Work ! What type rising rate fuel pres reg are you using?
Vortech RRFPR with 10-1. It's one a friend had and I borrowed it and will be taking it off IF the APEXI SAFC fixes the lean conditions I had before I installed it. Before adding the RRFPR I had an air fuel ratio (AFR) of around 14 under full boost and with it I have between 11 and 13 which is better. The SAFC will help dial it in and a better blow off valve is something else I need.
What i would like to know is when will this turbo "kit" be available on aftermarket 4x4? I keep dreaming of more power, and a turbo seems the best way to go......but only if u build it your self.
That ride is sweet!
Jeff
Honestly, making a "kit" crossed my mind, but the reality is that anyone can make a kit and the only complicated part is the exhaust manifold. I do have 1/2" thick exhaust manifold flanges available if anyone needs them to make their own turbo manifold. At the moment I ONLY have them cut for the 1.6 16 valve and not the 1.3 or the 1.6 8 valve motors, but will cut them if there is a need for them.
(http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboflange%7E0.jpg)
Sean
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I thought that might be a vortech, the color gave it away. I've been thinking of going that route with my turbo setup, but I'm running such a low boost threshold, it's prolly not even necessary. Sure would like a get a look at your manifold though. Any photos of it?
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Honestly, making a "kit" crossed my mind, but the reality is that anyone can make a kit and the only complicated part is the exhaust manifold. I do have 1/2" thick exhaust manifold flanges available if anyone needs them to make their own turbo manifold.
Pardon my ignorance, but why not just cut off the flange from the stock manifold and start from there? Is it hard to weld to? If you could post pics of your manifold, that would be sweet. And - what's the price of your flanges... I sense a turbo in my near future ;D
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aftermarket4x4 you make this turbo setup seem so easy, could anyone do it?
I have the 1.6 16valve like you, will the motor hold for daily driving?
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will the motor hold for daily driving?
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That's the question. I'm not sure what kind of boost pressure Sean's running, but to get that kind of power out of a 1.6 Zuk motor you'll need boost in the neighborhood of, say 8,9+ lbs. Am I close Sean? Now that's pretty reasonable for a stock motor that is only seeing occasional use. Occasional being the operative word. Without strengthened internals, better valve material, and an upgraded cooling system I am sure you'll see premature engine wear running it daily on the street. Sean's did it the right way though, controlling your fuel is EVERYTHING when running a turbo. It not only makes the power, it cools the combustion, prevents detonation, allows correct timing, and prevents your pistons from literally melting. Fuel Tuning is the key to turbo success.
You could weld to the stock manifold flange, but it's cast iron and welding to it is tricky and it'll eventually crack. Ask Wildgoody.
If anyone could do it, they would.
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What level of boost could you run on a Daily Driver without rebuilding the engine to take the extra pressure?
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What level of boost could you run on a Daily Driver without rebuilding the engine to take the extra pressure?
A lot of turbo'd street cars run 4-8 lbs of boost safely. As stated, it will all depend on your fuel management, intercooling etc.
Keep in mind. Turbo = Hi Octane gas. Forget using low-octane. May want to consider a propane conversion, as it's 110 octane.
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I wish I had some fabrication skills >:(. I dont know of anymore bolt on things to do. I have thought about the propane injection with a turbo, but I really dont think Im capable of and extensive swap like that.
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;) Ya get the skills by doing it. Were not born with them, we learn them like everyone else. If I need to do something I don't know how to do, I get a book, go online, or get someone to teach me. I make plenty of mistakes learning how to do stuff, and use up a lot of metal, but once you can do something you keep the skill for life. And practice does make perfect. It also makes sense to buy the tools if you can. I learned form my grandpa when I was a kid. He told me If your gonna pay someone to do a job for you, your better off buying the tools you need, and learning how to do the job. When your done you have the skills, and the tools, and the pride of doing it yourself. If ya can't do it, learn how to make a lot of money! That way you can afford to pay someone else.
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;) Ya get the skills by doing it. Were not born with them, we learn them like everyone else. If I need to do something I don't know how to do, I get a book, go online, or get someone to teach me. I make plenty of mistakes learning how to do stuff, and use up a lot of metal, but once you can do something you keep the skill for life. And practice does make perfect. It also makes sense to buy the tools if you can. I learned form my grandpa when I was a kid. He told me If your gonna pay someone to do a job for you, your better off buying the tools you need, and learning how to do the job. When your done you have the skills, and the tools, and the pride of doing it yourself. If ya can't do it, learn how to make a lot of money! That way you can afford to pay someone else.
Great advice, thanks
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thats awsome, loved the write up and pics, i dont know much about turbos but i like youre setup, good hp, low wieght
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What level of boost could you run on a Daily Driver without rebuilding the engine to take the extra pressure?
For the 1.6 16 valve running the stock internals and stock computer I would say that 6 PSI is the absolute maximum amount of boost you'd want to run for it to be reliable for a long time. Read into that as meaning that with the proper tuning it would be a reliable daily driver with alot more boost, but you have to invest more $$$ into injectors, a piggy back computer, etc to be alble to tune it. Daily driving mine with 7 psi has not been a problem at all and the boost never really kicks in unless you punch it hard....it honestly drives like there's not even a turbo on it until you need the power. I have put about 400-500 miles on the Sammy since the turbo was installed and run a few mud bogs and Tough Truck races and so far no problems as a wheeler or a daily driver.
Sean DeVinney
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Sean,
Other than fuel management, you're running stock FI stuff right? Injectors, throttle body, fuel pump etc? The ECu normally controls fuel management right, so how does the new fuel management plug in? Do you completely disconnect the ECU, or splice into something?
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Tha
Sean,
Other than fuel management, you're running stock FI stuff right? Injectors, throttle body, fuel pump etc? The ECu normally controls fuel management right, so how does the new fuel management plug in? Do you completely disconnect the ECU, or splice into something?
That's something I'd like to work out as well. The only fuel management system I've been able to find that'll work with our 16v Zuk motors is a Haltech, out of AU. It's completley programmable, but the cost is HUGE, something around $2k USD. Maybe Sean found somthing new. IF your building an all out maximum power build, that would be the way to go, especially if money were no object. For most of us just wanting a modest increase in power, the stock ecu, bigger injectors, and /or a rising rate fuel pres regulator is more than enough to run 5/6 lbs and have it run well. With bigger injectors and timing adjustment, mine even passed state emmission inspection, WITHOUT a cat. I'm pretty sure there are other programmable units out there, but for me the cost out weighs the benefits. Now, if money were no object I can think of a whole lot you can do to a Zuk motor to get 250+ hp, hmmmmm...............
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I found a site on line that showed an ECU for a Mitsubishi that looked very similar to a Zuk one but had an external EPROM. One of those could possibly be used, I'd like to get my hands on one to experiment. Otherwise the way to go is to fit the later 16V from the Esteem that does have a reprogrammable ECU, I've started work on that one but I need to finish off a scanner and diagnostic software for the OBD Zuks first.
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:) Keep us informed Rhinoman, that sounds very interesting!
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I re-read, and you already answered a bunch of my questions...
The fuel pump is the stock 1.6 16 valve model out of a Tracker tank installed in the Samurai tank and the blue circular thing is a Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator (RRFPR) that increases the fuel pressure as the boost increases so that it supplys enough fuel. An APEXI SAFC air/fuel controller is in the near future for it to help optimize the power and make it run even better.
I'm still curious as to how you're going to get the APEXI SAFC air/fuel controller working. Does it replace the ECU, or just work with it somehow?
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The APEXI is an interceptor unit. It sits between the sensors and the ECU and modifies the incoming signals to cheat the ECU.
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Sean,
Other than fuel management, you're running stock FI stuff right? Injectors, throttle body, fuel pump etc? The ECu normally controls fuel management right, so how does the new fuel management plug in? Do you completely disconnect the ECU, or splice into something?
I re-read, and you already answered a bunch of my questions...
I'm still curious as to how you're going to get the APEXI SAFC air/fuel controller working. Does it replace the ECU, or just work with it somehow?
Yes, all of the wiring and computer parts are completely stock. If I was running only 5 PSI I would not need the fuel pressure regulator or any additional fuel management because when I was watching the air/fuel on the AEM UEGO digital readout it never went lean until about 6-7 PSI of boost. The Vortech fuel pressure regulator is there as cheap insurance to make sure that I don't run lean and blow anything up. It will be removed as soon as I install the piggy-back SAFC as I don't think I will need it anymore. I picked up a used APEXI SAFC on Friday and downloaded the instructions, but there is nothing at all for the Suzuki US models so I will need to figure out which wiring goes to the MASS-Air, to the MAP and to the TPS then connect it into the proper locations. The SAFC will interpret the signals coming from those sensors and change them as needed then send the new signals to the computer which alters the air and fuel allowing you to tune it from idle up to full throttle in 100 RPM increments on the computer screen on the SAFC. This is the most economical way I have come up with to tune the motor under boost.
I found a site on line that showed an ECU for a Mitsubishi that looked very similar to a Zuk one but had an external EPROM. One of those could possibly be used, I'd like to get my hands on one to experiment. Otherwise the way to go is to fit the later 16V from the Esteem that does have a reprogrammable ECU, I've started work on that one but I need to finish off a scanner and diagnostic software for the OBD Zuks first.
I have some friends that use the Mitsubishi computers you are talking about in their Eclipse turbo cars which have 2.0 liter motors. They have the EPROM and a SAFC to tune it, but looking at their setups you'd need to swap out all the sensors and wiring for Eclipse parts which icould be a bigger PITA. My thought is to keep everything as much Suzuki parts as possible so the Esteem ECM and wiring may be a possibility......
Sean
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The Mitsubishi ECU that I was looking at has the same connector as the Zuk. It should be possible to retune it to run with the stock sensors and I'm looking for something that doesn't need wiring changes - once you get into that then you may as well run an aftermarket set up. Well that said for a turbo you would most likely need to swap the MAF, have either of you had a voltmeter across it to see if you are maxing it out?
EPROMs are a bit of a nuisance to tune but I've already modified my Vit ECU to take an EEPROM and the intention is to connect the write pin to one of the spare output pins on the processor or port expander so it can be reflashed down Suzukis 'secret' diagnostic link.
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Haven't checked the voltage on my MAF yet, wouldn't that have to be done While it's under boost?
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Haven't checked the voltage on my MAF yet, wouldn't that have to be done While it's under boost?
Yes, also you need to use a digital voltmeter so you don't load the circuit - or a diagnostic scanner. Is yours OBD2?
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Haven't checked the voltage on my MAF yet, wouldn't that have to be done While it's under boost?
Yes, I ran a digital voltmeter on my MAF and it never went over 4.2 volts (max is 5 volts) even when under 7PSI of boost so I'd say it's good for many more PSI.....I have heard it is accurate to about 15 PSI.
Sean
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Any thoughts on running 'pane? Isn't it cheap 110 octane fuel? I can't get a straight answer on how to adjust the fuel delivery / monitor air / fuel mixture on a propane setup. Don't want to add it, then end up running too lean and burning up the engine :o But $2.50 / gal 110 octane is tempting!
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Propane might be better added like a Nitrous fog under boost
to further enrich the mixture
Wild
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Propane might be better added like a Nitrous fog under boost
to further enrich the mixture
Wild
I like that idea, that way when I get to my campsite I can hook the propane tank up to my grill!
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I want to figure out how to run 'pane 100% of the time. It's well under $3 / gal here, and premium gas is close to $5. Propane is supposed to act like 110 octane, is easier on oil... bla bla bla.
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I want to figure out how to run 'pane 100% of the time. It's well under $3 / gal here, and premium gas is close to $5. Propane is supposed to act like 110 octane, is easier on oil... bla bla bla.
I think that would be fine for local travel, but I tend to take my rig on some fairly long trips. I don't think the accessability of propane filling stations is anywhere near that of gas.
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a good place to find propane is rv places or flying j
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'pane's availability is growing. It does have it's down sides, but gas prices are pushing me in that direction more and more.
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It was pointed out to me that the pictures were not coming up in this thread anymore. I tried to modify the original post, but it would not allow it so here are a bunch of Turbo pictures that I have collected from projects over the years. The first few are pictures from the beginning of this Junkyard Turbo thread:
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbozuki1.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbozuki2.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboa.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbob.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboc.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbod.jpg)
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turboflange~0.jpg)
This has nothing to do with me and was a customers Supercharger setup on a 1.3:
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/normal_zukisupercharger.JPG)
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A VW turbo and 1.6 16V custom log manifold setup for a customers Zuk. This Zuk spins 37" Krawlers!!!
(http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10154/turbovw16v.jpg)
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That was probably prompted by my sale of one of your old Turbo Setups ::) Unfortunately, I've our grown the zooks and am having to make the migration to Jeep :-\ Best of luck to everyone in the Suzuki world!!!