ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: olija on October 04, 2008, 11:57:19 PM
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First, YES I searched but I din't find exactly what I was looking for.
I have an 01 Vitara 2.0L. I plan to put it on 31" tires and use Sidekick 5.13 third members to lower the diff gearing. Today I went to the wreckers and pulled the front axle out of a 1995 4 door Sidekick. Now I've been doing some research, and originally I thought all I needed to do was just swap the 3rd members, but from what I've read, it is actually much better to just use the whole front axle out of the Sidekick instead of putting the Sidekick 3rd member in the Vitara housing. The reason I say this is because the Vitara uses some sort of air-actuated axleshaft disconnect which sounds like it does have some problems for a few people. I read an article in the tech section saying you have to use a 1996-1998 Japanese built Sidekick third member, but I don't really see why...I thought they were all the same from 1993-on. Hopefully I didn't waste too much time yanking that diff out of that Sidekick.
I guess if push comes to shove I can just take the diff out of my 97 Sidekick, that's just a little more work I guess!
What I'm trying to ask is, is there any reason I CAN'T use the front diff out of my 97 Sidekick? Why does it have to be a Japanese built unit?
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The Zukiworld article is adamant that it has to be a jp sidekick, but doesn't say why. My guess is different mounting arrangements.
I saw that the article was written by Jim Bouchebel. If you Google that name, there's a Jim Bouchebel on Facebook, and some other hits. Try asking.
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I think it has to do with the different number of splines on the drive shafts.
The '96-'98 Jap build vehicles have 26 spline shafts the same as the GV's, I don't know what the others are ???
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It's definitely not the spline count. In 1993 they upgraded from 22 to 26 spline on the inner ends of the CVs. Seeing as mine is a 97 that is definitely not the issue. I am going to try get a hold of this Jim fellow and see what he has to say.
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I've been checking in the parts catalogue, and the front drive shafts for the 96-98 are different #s for Product of Japan and Product of Canada. It is likely that Suzuki made some changes to the shafts, which they introduced on the 96-98 models in Japan, but not till 99 in Canada. Maybe the mix-and-match only works with the new design parts?
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I used the 1.8L diff's, no problem.
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hmm, so it seems I may have been a little hasty in going out and buying that diff then..
I was thinking about just swapping the 3rd members and keeping the air shift on the fly ... is it actually that unreliable or do people just have a real hate-on for fancy gizmos?
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http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn204/jayinbarrie/?action=view¤t=FrontDiff.jpg
The air actuator is part of the 3rd member on the +'99 Vitara. To do the gear change you would have to take it to a shop and have them swap the ring and pinion ($$$).
My 4wd light started to flicker and make an odd clunk sound ever now and then. The 4wd was not engaging or staying engaged, just depended on how much the air was leaking at the time. The air pressure going to the diff was good (around 6psi), but the diff had trouble keeping the pressure.
My driveway gravel and a bit steep, in winter it get pretty ice. It's to slippery to backup the driveway in 2wd. $My cousin had the same trouble with my driveway in his Dodge 4wd, specially when it was not loaded. This was REALLY embarrassing considering my wife had NO PROBLEM IN HER LITTLE SMART CAR!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
I had to act!! Fixing the air activated diff seemed costly with no guarantee it would not happen again. The swap is similar in cost (depending on wreckers), problem free, and has the added gear change.
I changed it at the end of winter, so I have not really played in the snow with it yet, but I should be able to back into my driveway without trouble. ;D
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Ok, so basically what you did is toss the entire front axle, and replace it with a Sidekick axle, and then use hybrid CV's as described in the article?
I think I am leaning towards this as it sounds like I'm going to be tearing into the front end anyway, I may as well git r done right eh!
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Yeap, just swap them out and use the hybrid CV's.
You can use locking hubs from a Sidekick or just buy new.
So I used the front and rear diff from a 1.8L Cami (Ont built) '98 Sidekick with out a problem (yet??). If you can find a Japanesse go for it, just to error on caution. Still don't know why we should not use the Canadian Sidekick diff's, so if you have a '97 Sidekick for parts already might as well give it a go. :)
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I got my Sidekick locking hubs on already, may as well take advantage of the spare parts if I can!
I'm hesitant to use my 97 Sidekick front end parts because it's a CAMI-built unit...according to IanL on this forum the CAMI built ones won't work.
I've been checking in the parts catalogue, and the front drive shafts for the 96-98 are different #s for Product of Japan and Product of Canada. It is likely that Suzuki made some changes to the shafts, which they introduced on the 96-98 models in Japan, but not till 99 in Canada.
I still think this is slightly absurd because looking on rockauto.com (I buy pretty much all my parts from them), there is only one type of CV available. It doesn't differentiate between Jap and Canadian build.
Now if only someone came out with a 4" lift so I could run my 31's without a body lift!
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Yeah I know, I was worried about the Cami diff's too. I had easy access to the Cami diff and was getting frustrated with worring about wether the Sidekick was manual or auto and did it really have the right R&P ratio. The US$ was still strong, and I did not want to order more stuff from the state's (dam duty charges, what about free trade??). I think all the 1.8L's are 5.13 R&P.
I do worry when I see some of the comments. I know Yankee-Tim has also been clear not to use the Cami diffs. It would be nice to know what problem to expect.
My wife keeps asking for a new family car. I keep telling her that when this one dies, we'll get a new bigger family car. This may help her with her wish.
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This is really frustrating for me because I already have a diff in my 97 Sidekick that I could easily use. The cheapest one from the wreckers was a little over $200 and it's from a 95 so it's going back today. I called up some other places, one wrecker had one out of a 98 Sidekick and it was going for $400 and the next place, the Suzuki specialists wanted $500. Seems a little steep when you can buy them privately for $100-$200.
I thought they were all the same from 93 on! I wouldn't mind trying to see if the CAMI diff works but it's my daily driver and it's the rainy season here in BC so biking to work isn't the greatest option.
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I don't think there's any problem with the diffs. It seems that the differences arise in the axle shafts - so far we know that the shafts from 96-98 Sidekicks (Product of Japan) and from 1.8s are ok (maybe the 1.8's are from Japan?), but the shaft parts from 96-98 cami Sidekicks cannot be used.
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Ok, so basically what you did is toss the entire front axle, and replace it with a Sidekick axle, and then use hybrid CV's as described in the article?
I think I got confused here...if we are dumping in an entire Sidekick axle housing and 3rd member, why not just use factory Sidekick CV's? Or did I get mixed up in that you are supposed to only use the Sidekick 3rd member in the factory Vitara axle housing and then use hybrid CV's?
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Ok, so basically what you did is toss the entire front axle, and replace it with a Sidekick axle, and then use hybrid CV's as described in the article?
I think I got confused here...if we are dumping in an entire Sidekick axle housing and 3rd member, why not just use factory Sidekick CV's? Or did I get mixed up in that you are supposed to only use the Sidekick 3rd member in the factory Vitara axle housing and then use hybrid CV's?
Yeah!!!!!!!!
I put in the Sidekick 3rd AND the axle housing. The Hybrid CV ensures the Diff's side of the CV is a Sidkick CV. So This should really limit any potential problems.
Good luck Olija. It's a not so hard task that is just made difficult from second guesses and apprehension.
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The reason you have to use hybrid axles with the Sidekick diff is that the diff mounts in a position offset to the left when fitted to the GV (using the Sidekick mounts, remember) when compared to the position of the GV diff). So you need to keep the leftside axle short (use Sidekick inner shaft instead of GV), and lengthen the right (use longer Sidekick inner shaft), with the GV mid-shaft and outer CV instead of Sidekick (because the GV track is wider).
Quote from the original article "The difference in the two side lengths is because the air diff moves the centerline over about 1" towards the passenger side." The article doesn't mention the track difference, which is the other factor.
The Sidekick and Sidekick Sport (1.8l) use the same diff housing, but the Sport has the wider track of the GV. That must be why, when fittting the Sidekick diff. to the GV, the Sport axle shafts fit the GV.
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So technically, it wouldn't actually matter what year the 3rd and axle housing is from, as long as you order some CV's and mid shafts from somewhere that are the right one...correct? I grow tired of searching, I want to get this thing up on 31's before the snow comes...I don't trust these all-seasons farther than I could throw them!
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So technically, it wouldn't actually matter what year the 3rd and axle housing is from, as long as you order some CV's and mid shafts from somewhere that are the right one...correct?
Yes. Just be aware that complete Sidekick axle shaft assemblies are interchangeable, but if you need to make hybrids, you will either need used ones from a jp 96-98 or from a Sport, or new ones for a Sport. New ones for a Sidekick are almost certain to be the old (cami) pattern, and the parts won't match up to the GV parts. (Unless you buy according to the Suzuki Part Nos for jp built 96-98 from a Suzuki dealer, if he stocks them - which I doubt)
Of course, if you get Sport parts, they will fit without having to build hybrids (according to JayinBarrie)
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The CV on one side just bolts on to the diff. It's the other side that is a problem, I think its the distance on the Vitara is different.
With the Vitara being wider then the Side kick, the distance from the diff to wheel is a touch longer. You can't "just" use the Vitara CV on the side where it slides into the diff because the stub is a different length, because of the air actuator.
It's really easy to make the hybrid CV.
Yes you will probable just swap the whole diff and 3rd. If you have a steel housing and anvil, you could use them, or hold for later, or $ell.
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All right, I drew myself a little picture, I think I have it sized up;
Starting from the drivers side, we have:
the Vitara CV bolted to the Sidekick inner shaft inside the Sidekick axlehousing mated to a Sidekick 3rd member,
then for the passenger side: a Sidekick inner shaft and inner CV joint mated to a Vitara CV shaft and outer CV joint
What would be better to use then, Sidekick Sport CV's or normal Sidekick CV's?
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I'm more confused than ever now. ???
What exactly is different between the Jap build and the Canadian build front ends?
Is it just the right hand inner shaft?
I'm in Australia and all of our Suzukis are built in Japan (as far a I know).
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I'm more confused than ever now. ???
What exactly is different between the Jap build and the Canadian build front ends?
Is it just the right hand inner shaft?
I'm in Australia and all of our Suzukis are built in Japan (as far a I know).
I don't know for sure, but I think the difference arises at this point in the Zukiworld article:
"What you want to do here is swap the Kick stub onto the longer GV mid-shaft and outer CV.
1. Carefully cut the band around the CV boot.
2. Remove the GV's stub/ CV cup and replace it with the stub/cup off the Kick, making a "hybrid" CV shaft. Use the new clamps on the boot."
You are actually breaking the CV joint. I think the mating only works if the Sidekick inner CV joint is 96-98 jp manufacture. My conjecture is that the design of the internals of the CVs is different. The complete CV is interchangeable, irrespective of manufacture, but only the jp CV parts will mate with the GV CV parts.
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So the only compatibility issue is the RH inner Sidekick CV/stub with the GV midshaft/outer CV?
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So the only compatibility issue is the RH inner Sidekick CV/stub with the GV midshaft/outer CV?
As I understand it, yes.
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So the only compatibility issue is the RH inner Sidekick CV/stub with the GV midshaft/outer CV?
As I understand it, yes.
Yeap. In article it mentions going to the auto wreckers to get the third member and the RH sided CV. The RH CV is just so you can make the Hybrid (Sidekick CV/stub with the GV midshaft/outer CV).
It's way easyier to unbolt/bolt in the whole differential, so you're not fighting with pulling the 3rd member from the anvil at the wreckers (that seal matterial is tough stuff!).
If you do pull the 3rd from the anvil, DON'T OVER TORQUE THE BOLTS when putting it back together. It's way to easy to strip the hole in the anvil.
Get'r done.... :D
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I just got a better idea...why would I go to all this trouble with the factory aluminum diff when it's probably going to end up breaking anyway?
I want to put in a steel housing from a GV. Since it is the same setup with the air diff actuator, I can just use the stock axleshafts. All I'd need to do is just pop a Sidekick aluminum 5.13 third member in there and I'd be golden, correct? Or is it recommended to go with the steel third and have the gears swapped over?
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I went with just the steel housing when I broke my aluminum one and now I broke the aluminum third, so If you want it done right once I would recommend doing both at the same time. However if you don't push it hard I doubt you'd have a problem with an aluminum 3rd the only reason i broke mine was because I hit a rock on the steel housing and it broke the third at the rear mount. I'm building a skid for it now. I'm going to try an aluminum third again with a protective skid and I'm going to make a piece of steel strap to go across the back of the third. I'm also going to try to make a new sidekick sport axle work one way or another and I will let you know how it goes.
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I have heard here that the aluminium diff is a weak spot.
Though, as long as your not crazy, and have a skip plate all should be ok.
If you get the GV anvil and the Sidekick 3rd, that's alot of $$. Get the Sidekick whole diff and leave the GV anvil for another day and another paycheque. There's an aftermarket anvil somewhere here.
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Hawks sells steel housing for around 400 and steel 3rd for 289. Not cheap but better than any other prices I saw. Even used are very hard to find and not cheap if you do.
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Sidekick sport axle seems to works fine. It is the same length as the vitara axle and it has the slightly longer stub needed for the sidekick diff. I am up and runnin again with 5.13s and four wheel drive that should always works when I tell it to.
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CG98x, you're talking about the pass side CV assembly, right? If so, that is good news. That shouldn't be impossible to order from the local parts store.
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Yes thats what I'm referring to. I ran it pretty hard tonight to test it and didn't have any problems.
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Is there anyone in Central Or southeast kentucky that can do this job for me?