ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: ebewley on November 19, 2008, 05:04:39 PM
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GM dumps Suzuki stake for much-needed cash
Hans Greimel Automotive News
November 17, 2008 - 9:33 am ET
TOKYO -- Cash-strapped General Motors will dump its 3 percent stake in Japan's Suzuki Motor Corp. for about $230 million as it scrambles for funds to avert collapse.
GM said it will continue existing projects with Suzuki, such as collaborating on hybrid vehicles and fuel cells, as well as the joint operation of GM's CAMI assembly plant in Canada. The companies also will continue joint global purchasing, GM said.
"Despite the sale of our remaining Suzuki shares, this action will have no impact on our existing bilateral business relationships," CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement today. "We look forward to continue building on our success to date with our long-term partner."
GM has held a stake in the Japanese automaker since 1981, when it purchased 5.3 percent of Suzuki. GM's holding rose to more than 20 percent in 2001 but was later trimmed to 3 percent.
GM announced the sale today after saying it may not have enough cash to keep operating by early next year. The company said it burned $6.9 billion in cash during the third quarter, cutting cash reserves to $16.2 billion. To stay in business, GM must maintain reserves of $11 billion to $14 billion.
GM soon may be joined by another ailing Detroit player in selling Japanese assets.
Ford Motor Co. reportedly is eyeing the sale of at least part of its 33 percent stake in Mazda Motor Corp. Ford has run low on cash since burning $7.7 billion in the third quarter.
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::)
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f-em
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Think GM is thinking they will get more $$ with the bail out from the feds if they show that they have to let things like this go?
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As much as I hate to see any company fail I really really dont want to pay for THEIR mismanagement with MY tax money.
If big brother is there to bail out failing companies then how close are we to socialism.
I laugh at the top execs who beg for this money but then expect to keep their same old same old life style without any real government intrusion into their lives or busniness.
Instead of begging for cash like a bum on the street they should be focusing on just how to make a buck in this global economy.
That 700+billion bailout cash pot has gotten alot of leeches standing there with their hands out.
(I despise the leeches)
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my construction business is down too, wonder if i can get a billion or two ::)
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I was laid off in a "downsizing". Who's going to bail me out of my financial drought?!??!!?
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I'm torn on this subject .... I, in no way, want to help people who want a hand out from US, the tax payers , When they are flying in to DC on private jets to beg for money, while paying themselves millions of dollars a year. They are not willing to give up their jets, money, or lifestyle, but want ALL OF US to give up money to help them :( .... It's a bunch of BS, and nobodies fault but thier own.
At the same time. If the "Big 3" go under, there will be hundreds of thousands of people directly out of a job, and hundreds of thousands more indirectly affected (factories that make wiring harnesses/fuse boxs/interior parts/ ect.) ... I live about 1 hour from the Corvette plant, and the only factory in my hometown makes peices for cars. If Ford/GM/Chrysler go under.... You think it's hard to get a job now? Wait until that many people are added to those looking for work.
So where do I stand? I have no idea ??? . I Feel very strongly about not helping out CEO's that want a handout w/o any sacrafice on thier part at all.... But I don't want to say that I'm hoping hard working americans lose thier jobs, either.
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I don't think they'll dissolve into nothing...and leave millions unemployed. Some other automaker will most likely buy them out. Right?
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I'm torn on this subject .... I, in no way, want to help people who want a hand out from US, the tax payers , When they are flying in to DC on private jets to beg for money, while paying themselves millions of dollars a year. They are not willing to give up their jets, money, or lifestyle, but want ALL OF US to give up money to help them :( .... It's a bunch of BS, and nobodies fault but thier own.
At the same time. If the "Big 3" go under, there will be hundreds of thousands of people directly out of a job, and hundreds of thousands more indirectly affected (factories that make wiring harnesses/fuse boxs/interior parts/ ect.) ... I live about 1 hour from the Corvette plant, and the only factory in my hometown makes peices for cars. If Ford/GM/Chrysler go under.... You think it's hard to get a job now? Wait until that many people are added to those looking for work.
So where do I stand? I have no idea ??? . I Feel very strongly about not helping out CEO's that want a handout w/o any sacrafice on thier part at all.... But I don't want to say that I'm hoping hard working americans lose thier jobs, either.
plain and simple, when we were paying $4.00 a gallon for gas some assholes in the middle east made a LOT of money while these dumbass auto groups pumped up production on the big gas guzzlers. so my proposal is that they can take there big ass private jets over to talk to the oil sheiks to beg for money. all the while salvation army is starting to put credit card machines at there donation stations in texas, how messed up is that???????????
my sugestion...... be prepaired!
survival supplys, extra gas, deer rifle, ect........
i dont care how much money they print or loan or borrow, it's only gonna get really bad before it gets any better.
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sorry eric, i needed to spout >:(
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Both the top executives and the employees with the unions are to blame. I find this financial crunch unfair and have little sympathy for these people. Do you know that union auto workers with no college education are making 75.00 a hour with full benefits. The same auto workers at a American Toyota mfg plant make 45.00 a hour. Now they want the american public which makes less than that an hour, to continue their lifestyle and continue making non solid axle 4x4's with no low gearing.
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Funny thing .
My mom and I had an argument about a week or so ago over the "big 3" bailout.
You see, she worked for GM (medical retirement) and my sister in-law retired from GM and I myself even had a short 80 day or so work period with GM.
She was buying into the "OHH if they fail it will be terrible" crap and she couldnt understand that I didnt want my tax money to go towards paying an auto workers wage and even more the top execs wages for a product I have a hard time buying.
Then she see's the "big 3" execs fly up in their private jets and not willing to give up their millions in yearly pay and bonus's and she flipped her tune pretty quick and now understands that they are just greedy leeches.
I myself have no problem with someone making a buck and that is all good and fair but to have the tax payers pick up the tab for a mismanaged business is just WAY to much for me to tolerate.
Now to be fair I must state that I myself work for a city so it could be said I work off the taxes others pay but that isnt totally true since our department actually makes money by providing a much needed product and service(water/sewage) and we do a lot of nasty/dirty/dangerous work.
I do however live in the city I work in and also get very mad at the wasteful use of MY and other citizens tax dollars that I see on occassin.
So to take it into a different direction I was wondering if SUZUKI ever built their facilty in michigan near milford (near GM's milford proving grounds) like I had heard they would years back.Hmmm...
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Danged, another turd hearder. Haven't seen any one else doing it.
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Danged, another turd hearder. Haven't seen any one else doing it.
not so much of a herder but more of a.......friend. :laugh: OMGosh
no no no ;D I work on the clean side doing water taps, fire hydrant replacement, water main break repairs and stuff and only mess with the sewer side when we tear out a sewer line or a major sewer problem comes up.
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Lucky guy, here we do both water and sewer as well as the street department and the parks. I as well did the water projects as you do but got volunteered to be the water meter reader. Still end up having to go back and help when we get short handed or emergancies.
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I don't know if bailing them out is a good idea but I know that gm has like 3.5 mil people working for them and ford is not to far behind, if those people don't have a job we (us tax payers) will still be paying for it. and there not the BIG three anymore (Toyota, Honda ) and the big two
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Maybe with fuel prices dropping, their sales will get good enough to keep them afloat. All I know is, if they do stay open with or without the bailout money, I hope they open their eyes and realize gas guzzling vehicles are a thing of the past, they need to slow down production and make more compeditive options to the Japanese vehicles. I feel bad for the workers, but not the CEO's. Go to a dealer and look at the current prices of their half tons, and three quarter tons. Now think back to two, three years ago - and what the MSRP tag was then. Funny thing is, they're still making money off the majorly reduced pricing.
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I hate to see most any company go under but if they cant manage it right then what else can be done but let it fail and hopefully that wll allow better run companies to move in.
Other auto companies have come and gone in the past and we were just fine.
Yes the big 3 employ a HUGE number of people but does that give them the right to strong arm the American people in to what amounts to protection money "bail us out OR ELSE-PPPFFFttt".
I say they (big 3 exec's) better pull their hands back, roll up their sleeves, get off their lasy fat butts and get to work.
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I don't know if bailing them out is a good idea but I know that gm has like 3.5 mil people working for them and ford is not to far behind, if those people don't have a job we (us tax payers) will still be paying for it.
And that doesnt count the jobs lost in the Support, Sales, Parts, Etc.......The list goes on.
There is No Question the we are going to have to help. I think the House finaly got it right.
Making THEM bring in the PLAN. lets see what and where our money is going for. We did this same thing with Chrysler and Lee Iocoka, And it was a complete sucess.
But the days of sitting back and just pushing thru ones pet projects are GONE. They have got to be competive.
Most of the issue here is also the American culture as well. We all Drove our nice SUV's. But if you look at the rest of the world, There was no market for them. Only here in America, and now Dodge has there new challanger.......Just sitting on the showroom floors....No takers.
Nobodys buying the Toys, and six months ago with Gas at $4.00 a Gal who would.
Whlie I can afford to drivemost anything I want, Most of us americans cant.
And I got to tell you when Gas hit $4.00 a Gal. I wasnt driving the 10 miles a gal H2.
So if they get there bailout, they better tool up on some pretty hip cars that are Earth friendly, and that folks want to and can afford to drive.
Now here is a good start.
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk268/Wmac123/hummer-hx-hybrid-400x280.jpg)
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Most of the issue here is also the American culture as well. We all Drove our nice SUV's. But if you look at the rest of the world, There was no market for them. Only here in America, and now Dodge has there new challanger.......Just sitting on the showroom floors....No takers.
Thats not true china has been buying all the trucks and SUV's from OUR big 3 (GM mostly I heard).
The chinese have been getting a fuel break while we here in the states were getting taxed the chinese were fuel subsidized and that lead to a bit of an unwarranted fuel demand but now the chinese have stopped the fuel subsidies I believe and demand is down over there along with the rest of the world.(for now)
Of course none of that changes the fact the big 3 need to get with it and make fuel efficient vehicles.
Now me being distrustful of our leaders feel since they are taxing our fuel they really dont want a bunch of fuel efficient cars running around over here lowering their fuel revenues.
I shouldnt even mention that our leaders have their hands in the fuel companies and are most likely setting up the next great fleecing of the American people with the "new techology".
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I don't disagree with that about the Gas, Hell just look at the Bush admonistration.
We wont even go into the fact that he transfered his "Shares" in halliburton to his daughter family trust, and Halliburton got the NO BID Contract to supply all of our soldiers with everything from clothing to the food they eat. (oh yea and Dick Cheaney served on the board) I'm just saying that if we are going to put our monies up to bail them out, Then lets get creative as the Japanese and others have done, Bring the quality up, and create some nice vehicles that people WANT to buy.
There only in trouble because of lack of sales. and it didn't JUST Happen.
there sales have been declining over the last ten years or so as they just sat around and watched as the "Other auto makers" took over the lions share of the market place. Just My Opinion.
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OK My turn. Wake up call people! It's not a bail-out, it's a loan. In the 1st year alone the automotive related jobs will return to our govt. over 40 billion dollars in income taxes and social security. The possible losses if the US auto industry goes down could extend to over 175 billion in the 1st year alone. 25 billion to save 175+++ billion? A no brainer!
I don't know about you, but I'm in the middle class. The UAW and other unions protect the middle class. Where would most of us be without that steppingstone? The filthy rich want more slaves and the middle class stands in their way. Ask Russia and France what caused their revolutions. The Japanese govt. has subsidized ALL manufacturing in their country, even going as far as to manipulate the value of the yen to increase profits! Fair Trade? It's time we all make the kind of money union workers make, but we can't get there by beating them down! Any of you ever collect un-employment? Social Security? Medicall benefits? Have a safer work environment? Thank your unionized industrial workers.
Your Welcome, Tone
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Hey Tone, glad to have your input. You gotta realize though the the vast majority of the "middle class" works just as hard as you do, without the benefit of a union to fight their battles. Your right, I for one would sure like to have the benefits and pay of the average union auto worker. I know what they make, most of my family worked for Ford and GM. I think the real issue most of us are not happy about is the fact that we as a non union working class group, who in most cases make far less than the average UAW , and definitely do not have the benefits of a UAW, Don't necessarily feel happy about having to have our tax money diverted to GM, or FORD or any other car co. that failed to make a product that would sell or be competitive. That's just crappy business practice. You call it a "loan" with the return to the government 40 billion in taxes and social security payments the first year. Wouldn't union workers have to pay taxes and social security anyway? How is that paying back the "loan?" I have to pay for at least half of my health insurance, I get no pension after 30, I sure as hell don't get to collect 90+% of my pay when out during slowdowns. The unions were a good thing when the major manufacturers were taking advantage of the labor force, but in my opinion there time has passed, at least the way they operate now. I agree, everyone should be paid a fair wage for their labor, but the amount of unionized waste I see everyday makes me want to scream rip off! I grew up in a union family, both Teamsters and UAW, and saw from an early age just how much those union guys got away with. Saw it FIRSTHAND. So yeah, I agree that in the beginning of the labor movement the unions were necessary, but now, personally, I think they just bleed the system. There are enough laws on the books so that unions are redundant. How do companies like Toyota manage to run manufacturing plants in America without unions and still have successful and desirable products without grumbling workers? BTW, how did you manage to tie social security into unionized industrial workers? I think your giving too much credit to unions. Safer work enviorment? Ever hear of OHSA? Besides if everyone who held a semi skilled job got paid a UAW wage and benefits, the last of America's slow moving products would surely be too overpriced for anyone in the rest of the world to afford them. How much more does the retirement benefit of the average auto worker in America add to the cost of producing a car? No wonder the competition can make and sell them cheaper. I don't hear anyone at the US Honda, or Toyota plants complaining. Ever consider maybe it's you guys that are making TOO much for what you do? Or maybe you think the guy working at Macdonalds should join a union a get $23.50 an hour to sell burgers. I know the unionized toll takers here in Jersey are making over $20 an hour to sit in their booth and collect money. Tough job for sure. How about the Septa bus Drivers ( union again) who make over $26 an hour for driving a bus. When does it stop being fair wage and start being overpaid? That's just my opinion. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this.
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Happy Thanksgiiving Mike! I'm wondering when this is gonna get moved to the water cooler. Ok, lets start with OSHA. Did you know that their regulations were originally written in 1975? The only one that is still pertinent today is a vaguely written one that says something like once it has been demonstrated that a company can improve a condition, it must maintain it. I for one am glad that the standards I'm working under are not over 30 years old. Believe me, a company doesn't improve an unsafe condition out of love for their workers, but by the threat of a fine or a strike. Talk about tax payers money, how do you people feel about taking up the cost of injured workers that are being spit out of factories regulated by 30 year old laws? Ask some non-union coal miners this question! The Honda plant's safety record is atrocious.
OK, I too am tired of protecting poor workers, in some cases govt. laws prevent us all from hiring the most qualified. Yet I am more against corporate big shots taking all of our profits instead of spreading it throughout the industries, updating technologies, making the US a competitive force in the world. It has been stated that the japanese company's worker is paid less than the U.S. worker's, that their costs are less. Kinda makes me wonder why their cars don't cost equally less. Wonder where those huge profits are going? :-\ ("over there...over there")
The japanese are much different than us, they are very loyal to themselves. They rarely buy anything non-japanese. Not even rice. In japan it is not unusual for Toyota & Honda workers to work for free, just to keep their jobs. Does this mean we should too?
Take note people, when the rich republican's banking institutions started floundering, you paid to rescue them, to the tune of 700 billion. Yet when a few million middleclass democrats are going to lose their income, you're against loaning 1/25th of that?! Where do you think a million DETROITERS are going to go for work? Ha Ha... your town.
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;) Your arguments are too good to refute. I don't know the solution, but I'm open to suggestion. Is it too late for me to come back to Detroit and work for Ford? PS, I'm an idependant leaning twards Democrat, and am willing to work for $20 hr + health ins.
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The big 3 ARE hiring... but you'll have to move.... to CHINA!!! :-\
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Man, now that's ironic. Gm basiclly closed Flint, turned it into a ghost town because nobody was buying Buicks. Now Buick is one of the, if not THE best selling American brand in China. Go figure. What would really be "fair trade" is if they had to IMPORT Buicks from America. Let them buy our stuff fair and square. >:( Screw Gm and whatever management team made the decision to build a factory in China. They should be made to eat Chinese cat food and drive rikshaws.
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I work for GM. 15 year on the trade and 1 year as an engineer.
During the last contract GM asked for and got new hires for less wages. So anyone new will start around $14 - $15 and will never reach the pay of older workers. They will have less benifets and I don't think any retirement. At the same time, they changed it so that when saleried employees reach the age of 65 they will loose all health care. So GM is trying to cut the "fat" and it's up and coming workers will be just like everyone else in the nation.
Someone talked about GM not building the cars that people want and will buy. Well, if you remember just a year ago or so, GM was building what people wanted. Big SUV's, trucks and so on. With the hit of $4 a gallon gas prices all those big vehicles now are not selling.
So, what GM needs to do is to retool, and start building what people "Now" want. How do you think they can do that? Most vehicles are at least 5 years in the making. They plan over the 5 years how they will produce that vehicle and how it will fit the buget. Now people are asking GM do what takes 5 years to plan and save for to do it "NOW". Oh yea, you have to do this without any kind of credit.
How many of us if they lost their car could go out and buy one with out any credit or financing?
GM needs cash money to do what needs to be done. With the economy the way it is GM is doing all it can to just stay afloat. With the loan, all the money can only be spent in the US and will be used to retool and bring the type of vehicle to the lots that people will by.
As for the other car companys (Honda, Toyota...) If you look around you will see that they were also on the Big SUV/Truck market. If you look you will see that they are laying off people, closing plants across the US that make these vehicles. The thing they have over us is that they have the cash/money base from there own home country so that they can/are retooling for the smaller cars that they already have.
I like my GEO. The reason I bought it was that it was a GM product. If we loose the big 3 all that will be left will be the forgen vehicles. Yes, they will fill the gaps that are left but we will be a nation dependent on forgin vehicles.
GM is doing really good things like the Volt, they are also the major contribuiter for for E-85 fuel and the resurech going into finding a different sorce other than corn. That will help so that we are not so dependant of forgen oil.
I hope we are given the chance to prove what we are capable of as a US auto manufacture.
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>:( I hope GM, Ford and other American car makers can survive and prosper, all I want is to be proud of American Made again, and be paid a fair wage for giving my time and health to the company. I've been talking with dustybadlands, and he made a very good point: the average auto worker isn't so much making "too" much, it's that the rest of us aren't making enough for what we do. It didn't make sense to me until he explained the ratio of cost to earnings thing, example: 30 years ago a candy bar cost 10 cents, a decent hourly wage was $3. Today, same candy bar, $1.00 good hourly wage: $30. Same ratio, so if that were the case, we should all be making more, correct? I still have a problem with $3.00 an hr being a good wage 30 years ago, but that's another story. Something besides the ratio of earnings to cost has changed. I think it's the greed of share holders and corporate elite. Today, it's not the product being made that's the concern of the manufacturers, it's the return to the " shareholders" that's most important. Screw everything else, as long as the shareholders get theirs. Cut corners everywhere you can, as long as the stock price returns are good. I don't know about anyone else, but I really am tired of having our own government support corporate greed, and use the rest of us like disposable tools. I'm sick of being angry and damned if I'm going to live in fear. Maybe the Europeans have a couple of good ideas after all, like the whole damn country going on strike until some things change. Isn't anyone else pissed off about the state of our country?
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Isn't anyone else pissed off about the state of our country?
I think our recent election showed that.
And YES, it is about the stock holders. as the CEO you work for 5 years or so, inflate the price of the stock. Get your multi million dollar golden parachute and be gone.
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Good points, guys, I would like to see the days return when car people ran the car companies. Now it's the bean counters. In "global manufacturing" it's all about "HPU's", hours per units. Fundamental accounting, each hour represents a wage that's static by contract. If you can't reduce the wage, you must reduce the hours. To reduce hours, you reduce people, hourly workers. :'( So now there are 2/3 less workers producing at a given rate. this equals $$$$ not quality. To make a quality product, it must be standardized and redundant so that one process cannot proceed until the previous one is done correctly. This requires more engineers who are better paid than the average worker but does not add to the HPU. So it looks like a quality product is being produced by less hourly workers, in reality the cost is higher overall. But don't worry, the engineers pay comes out of another department.
Not picking on engineers, lil truck, in fact I've always wanted to drive a train too! ;) In my plant, they are morfing into a "team". When it's done right, it's really supprising how the average hourly workers come up with super inovations on how to improve the production and quality. That's 'cause they're car people. Manufacturing is in their blood, like "bent parts".
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Happy Thanksgiiving Mike! I'm wondering when this is gonna get moved to the water cooler. Ok, lets start with OSHA. Did you know that their regulations were originally written in 1975? The only one that is still pertinent today is a vaguely written one that says something like once it has been demonstrated that a company can improve a condition, it must maintain it.
I don't know where you get your info on OSHA, but you're WAY off on this one. As an OSHA Outreach safety instructor, I know a lot about them. OSHA is constantly updating its regulations, and for the most part, reflect current conditions, not ancient ones. Problem is the administration. For better or worse, they backed off on new regs and watered down some others. The problem is global trade with no barriers to a US company moving the jobs to less regulated countires. To paraphrase the current Sec. of Labor, "A U.S. worker working in a less than safe American factory is better than the worker not working at all". No truer words can be said.
As for the car-company bashing going on, get real. They don't make the decisions for the company or the country, they make them for the shareholders. NEWSFLASH! They are required by law to do whatever is in the best interest of the shareholders! And since long-term investing is defined as holding the investment for 3-5 years, the concern with what happens to the company in 50 years is irrelevant.
Add to this that the same 8% that owns more than 40% of the Big 3's stock also own ~35% of the US oil company stocks. If I own a lot of auto and petro stocks, the last thing I want is a CEO of the car company have a plan to make a fleet of ultra-high MPG autos. That would be very bad for my petro stock value!
One solution? Outlaw public ownership of corporations. Period.
As this thread digresses...
Frankly, I like that GM is outta ASMC. Maybe, without their ties, they will produce my Katana soft-top and I'll consider buying another new Suzuki. 'Til then, I remain...
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Man, you guys suck at getting threads locked.
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Not picking on engineers, lil truck, in fact I've always wanted to drive a train too! ;) In my plant, they are morfing into a "team". When it's done right, it's really supprising how the average hourly workers come up with super inovations on how to improve the production and quality. That's 'cause they're car people. Manufacturing is in their blood, like "bent parts".
That's how I got an engineering job. I worked as an expermintal assembler (future car builds) for 15 years. I've done every thing from engine builds to building a car from a body in white. That means I completely build a car, every nut and bolt.
Also in my plant we put a high value on hourly input to help with improvements on anything from quality, assembly time, to safty.
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That's how I got an engineering job. I worked as an expermintal assembler (future car builds) for 15 years. I've done every thing from engine builds to building a car from a body in white. That means I completely build a car, every nut and bolt.
That's pretty cool. What is the most interesting car you worked on?
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>:( I hope GM, Ford and other American car makers can survive and prosper, all I want is to be proud of American Made again, and be paid a fair wage for giving my time and health to the company. I've been talking with dustybadlands, and he made a very good point: the average auto worker isn't so much making "too" much, it's that the rest of us aren't making enough for what we do. It didn't make sense to me until he explained the ratio of cost to earnings thing, example: 30 years ago a candy bar cost 10 cents, a decent hourly wage was $3. Today, same candy bar, $1.00 good hourly wage: $30. Same ratio, so if that were the case, we should all be making more, correct? I still have a problem with $3.00 an hr being a good wage 30 years ago, but that's another story. Something besides the ratio of earnings to cost has changed. I think it's the greed of share holders and corporate elite. Today, it's not the product being made that's the concern of the manufacturers, it's the return to the " shareholders" that's most important. Screw everything else, as long as the shareholders get theirs. Cut corners everywhere you can, as long as the stock price returns are good. I don't know about anyone else, but I really am tired of having our own government support corporate greed, and use the rest of us like disposable tools. I'm sick of being angry and damned if I'm going to live in fear. Maybe the Europeans have a couple of good ideas after all, like the whole damn country going on strike until some things change. Isn't anyone else pissed off about the state of our country?
well said bentparts....... amen
the rich just get richer, the poor just get poorer and the government doesent care. these corperations should pay BIG taxes unstead of providing the CEO's with big pensions that they keep even after they run there company to the ground.
so, lets look at the "real numbers"close of stock today(if i am correct, and if i'm not i'm sure someone here will correct me)
GM= 610.46 million shares X $4.11 =$2,508,990,600 that is the net worth of GM
ford= 2.39 billion shares X $2.66 =$6,357,400,000 net worth of ford
diamler= 1.1 billion shares X $29.83 =$32,813,000,000 net worth of diamler
total =$41,679,390,600
looks like diamler is doing ok, but why are we gonna loan the other two over double (close to triple)what there worth?
looks to me like our government is getting into the same problem that just closed fannie/freddy, loaning people more than there junk is worth
anybody?
is my math even right? i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it dont seen to even add up to me
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That's pretty cool. What is the most interesting car you worked on?
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For most of my time I was in Flint Michigan. I worked for GM V6 Powertrain. I was a engine builder when the first proto types for the superchared 3800 came out. Now there's an engine. I still don't know why GM stopped making them? And the cars I built were the family type Buicks and Cadilacs
Now I'm a production/equipment engineer for the Corrvette ZO6, ZR1, & Cadilac Pro-V assembly line here in Wixom Michigan. They are all hand built, one person engines. The engines even have the builders name on them.
The Pro-V is a Northstar Supercharged engine producing 465HP. They go in the STS-V and the XLR-V.
The ZO6 is a 7.0L (427ci) small block that makes 505HP.
The ZR1 is a 6.2L (378ci) small block supercharged engine that makes 638HP.
All these engines come with the GM 100,000 mile 5 yr warrenty.
So far I'm still doing good. The people that still have money, still want the go fast.
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I just have to put my $.02 in here about unions. I was a machinist for 17 years, 5 at union shops. I feel that certain unions are ruining this country! At one company(non-union) I ran 6 machines at a time. This wasn't a problem as the cycle time ranged from 15 min. to 2.5 hours per part. The machines were arranged in a cell type environment, easy to keep them all up and running. I then went to a union shop, 1 man=1 machine. I got written up for running more than one machine eventhough it had a 1.75 hour cycle time. I wasn't allowed to deburr my parts as that was somebodys job to do. I was told to bring a computer chess game or the like to play and pass my time. I can't just do that, so I quit. I ran into the same thing at the next union shop. Now, can you explain why our products cost so much more than the Jap stuff?
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Backwoods tracker. Nicely said.
I'm an architect, and I too have worked for a number of companies over the years. Only one was union. and it was ridiculous the plain stupidity of what you were allowed to do and not do.
I was on the structural team, therefore not "ALLOWED" to work on the curtinwall.
The curtinwall attaches to our structure in a highrise. so we waited, Explained it to a Jr Draftsman, waited for him to draw it WRONG, was allowed to redline the necessary changes, Waited for Jr to once again get it 80% correct, Redline again...............Blah, Blah, Blah. My point is I could of drawn what I needed in 1/2 the time it took Jr to screw up the first set, let alone make all the revisions.
Go Figure ???
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I agree with maczuki and backwoodstracker, some union rules are just plain stupid. Example: There was an article in a small town paper a while back about the town mayor, who was driving to his office one morning and saw a sewer lid that had come dislodged. He stopped his car, and proceeded to re position the lid, back into place. All in all it took him less than 5 minutes to do. It saved the city money in a varity of different ways, especially if someone had hit it and decided to sue. Unfortunatly, someone from the citys DPW saw him, and reported him. He was threatened with legal action, and told roads are the DPW's responsibilty. It seems the union for the DPW has a set, fixed schedule for this job: 4 men, two for blocking the road, one supervisor, one laborer. They get 2+ hrs for the job. Yeah, some union rules are completly stupid, and I can go on about many union rules, my buddy who's a millright has told me stories that'll make you laugh at their stupidity. Same for the teamsters. That being said, I still think there's a place for the unions, it just needs to be brought back into the realm of reality and common sense, something the whole country seems to be lacking.
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I still think there's a place for the unions, it just needs to be brought back into the realm of reality and common sense, something the whole country seems to be lacking.
YES YES
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(quote) "I don't know where you get your info on OSHA, but you're WAY off on this one. As an OSHA Outreach safety instructor, I know a lot about them. OSHA is constantly updating its regulations, and for the most part, reflect current conditions, not ancient ones. Problem is the administration. For better or worse, they backed off on new regs and watered down some others. "
Couldn't agree with you more on the watered down part, Tim, good to see that there's more safety watchdogs out there. I'm a UAW International Health & Safety Rep. and a "T3 qualified" Health & Safety Trainer. If you were to look at the UAW's health & safety guidelines and compare them to OSHA's, you'd be horrified along with us at the conditions the govt. allows. Check out their rulings on fiberglass.
On another point, I couldn't agree with you all more on the fact that there are a lot of lazy workers out there. They find refuge in union shops because everywhere else they'dve been fired long ago.
Things have changed a lot tho in the last 10 years in the UAW. IN the late 90's a small influx of greatful younger workers has helped create a new awareness. The Arbour report continually states the better productivity of union shops. Sadly, the current lay-offs hit these people first.
I and many others feel that if we expect mgmt. to give 100%, that we should at least do the same. Most of us give more.
Back to the original topic of this thread, GM has their fingers in everything. I was kinda bummed when they dropped the Tracker. When we are trying to figure out what the Corporation is gonna do next, we always say "one thing you can count on... they'll do the least logical thing!"
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I don't believe it's the US Tax Payer's responsibility to employ people. I believe it's each individual's responsibility to make sure they're employable. I've worked for companies that were obviously going to fail, and I took appropriate action. It's no secret that US auto makers have been doing a poor job of meeting customer's demands. If someone wants to work in the auto industry, and chooses to work for an inferior auto maker... why should I loan them money via my tax dollars when I've made sure I'm in a marketable field?
American manufacturers (of vehicles) have been screwing up since the 70's. They're slow to respond to customer demand - while foreign manufactures are meeting the demands of customers year after year. It's not my fault GM & Ford concentrated on gas-guzzling tanks. There will always be a market for reasonably priced reliable autos. US auto makers ignored this market while foreign auto makers continued to develop darn-good cars, light trucks & SUVs.
Ford & GM have HUGE distribution opportunities. There's a Ford or GM dealership every few miles. This alone will create enough value that someone will buy them out, fix them, and make them marketable again. Let the free market do it's thing. Part of improving what we have is letting some things fail, and allowing someone with better ideas & financing come along and fix it.
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If you use the above argument and place it in the 1930...
We should have just let the US fail and let some other country take over. We must not have known what we were doing to get ourselves in that bad of shape. We should have fired the president, closed congress and maybe just turn over everything back over to England. They've been around for a long time and must be doing something right.
Instead the "Government" provied jobs and other ways for people to survive. So that means the Tax payers had to provide the money for those new jobs and services...
A lot of what happen was good and some things were bad. At least they tried and didn't give up and are still a country today.
If we let the Big 3 fail we will be handing the country over to another. We will be solely dependent on foreign produced/controlled vehicles.
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We should have just let the US fail and let some other country take over.
1) Other countries tried *cough Japan*
2) it was a world-wide economic down-turn & because of the death toll from WWI, few countries were in a position to wage war.
3) Like other countries, we were considering major political upheaval. Remember the Hollywood Blacklist & McCarthyism? These came about because our country was considering allowing another form of government to take over.
We should have fired the president, closed congress
We fired Hoover (who became the scape goat), and hired Roosevelt. The 1930 & 1932 elections rotated congress from Republican to Democratic in the house and senate respectively.
Instead the "Government" provied jobs and other ways for people to survive. So that means the Tax payers had to provide the money for those new jobs and services...
It's called socialism, and it didn't work. The "New Deal" packaged several new ideas (almost all socialist) to stimulate the ecomomy. It was a monumental failure, and did nothing to halt the stagnation of the ecomomy - let alone stimulate it. "The Second New Deal" was an even bigger failure, and was creating HUGE national debt. It was nearly the nail in our nations coffin - the only thing that saved us was WWII & nature started co-operating again (no more dust bowl = farmers could produce crops again).
A lot of what happen was good and some things were bad.
Such as?
At least they tried and didn't give up and are still a country today.
Much of their "trying" actually did more to hurt the economy, and arguably would have led to the collapse of the Republic we have today.
If we let the Big 3 fail we will be handing the country over to another. We will be solely dependent on foreign produced/controlled vehicles.
We're already dependent on foreign produced goods. It's a world economy. Your vehicle likely has parts from a dozen different countries. Even foreign vehicles (especially Toyota's) are made largely from US raw materials.
Where is your evidence of this? I think there are other possibilities. Someone could get some private funding together, buy out GM or Ford, re-tool them & hire a better management / engineering team. Or, maybe someone else comes in and starts over from the ground up? In any case - we've been bailing out the US auto industry since the 70's. They continue to produce crap vehicles that don't sell. It's simple really, if you reward an outcome, you're more likely to get that same outcome. If you subsidize inferior engineering & marketing, you'll tend to get more of it. Innovation & the free market nearly always wins. It's just plain better equipped to succeed.
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If innovation & "free market"(???!) nearly always wins, how are the japanese winning?
Simple, THEY are government subsidized.
Heard a good one on the radio today, it goes like this: Not only are the big 3 almost about to go under, their suppliers are too! Uh- Oh! Guess what? These same suppliers supply foreign car makers (they mentioned toyota). These outside suppliers would also be drug under if any of the big three go under! So guess who's jumped on the "c'mon, give 'em the loan!" bandwagon? Everyone! (especially those who's pockets won't be affected!)
It seems as tho ALL car companies are so inter-connected some way or another. If you hurt GM, you hurt everybody. Wonder why? Could it be innovation? It definetely ain't a free market! Hurt a foreign carmaker, nuthin happens. So, who wins?
On another subject, does anyone know where I can get some Chinese Language lessons?
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It seems as tho ALL car companies are so inter-connected some way or another.
One of my previous companies did a lot of consulting work in the auto industry. We had a world map that showed all the current automotive companies and who owned part of them/who they were connected to.
That was a lot of criss-crossing lines...
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I'm just glad that the goverment is diligent with enforcement of the Sherman Antitrust Act, which amoung other things, was meant to prevent any company from becoming so large that it could coherece special treatment from the govenment.
In other words, it was passed to prevent any company from becoming so large that its failure would have enormous negative impact on the government and/or the nation's economy.
Funny, I hear a lot of "too big to fail" talk coming from the very folks who are supposed to prevent that from happening in the first place.
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'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
Thomas Jefferson 1802
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Jeremiah, ever the scientist, you know I respect your intellect 8) ..... However, have you ever heard of the "V.A.T."? Value Added Taxes. It allows for ,say, a $20,000 American car to be sold in Germany for $25,792 and a $20,000 German car to be sold here for $17,885 !! This VAT disparity is reliably estimated to place an extra $290 billion burden on American manufactured goods and $85 billion on U.S. services. Roughly half our yearly trade deficit. There is more info here:
http://www.freep.com/article/20081210/OPINION01/812100354/1069/OPINION
Another example of the root cause of our auto industry's problems. NOT product line or quality, it's economic policy....AGAIN! >:(
Like this and many other programs, anybody can "get it". From a scientist to a ditch digger. It just takes the scientist a lot longer! ;)