ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: nevadasmith on December 26, 2008, 01:23:12 PM
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I've got my 92 tracker on the road again, but i'm loosing power fast!
It's hard to start, and dies 2 or 3 times before it will stay running, then idles at 500-550 rpm for 5 min, then the Idle comes up to 1200 rpm, but if I let the clutch out in neutral before it is fully warm, idle drops to 400 rpm or dies.
once it is warmed up it will Idle fine, but as no power below 2800 rpm, in fact in neutal, It could take 15-20 seconds to free rev the engine up to were it runs happy, and goin down the road it will loose rpm at constant speed and i will have to down shift to get the rpm up again! This started almot a year ago as a mild loss of power at the bottom end, but it has become un drive able!!!!!
No check engine light, I have replaced o2censor, plugs, cap, rotor, adjusted the valves, checked cam timing, and igition timming, nothing helps! even ran a compression test! and checked for vacume leaks.
could it be a weak fuel pump? what would be the syptoms? how would I test it?
Please spit ball me some Ideas as I'm out!
Thanks
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sounds like a vacuum leak
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Don't waste your money haphazardly replacing things. Get your hands on a good manual (FSM is downloadable on the internet), and start inspecting & troubleshooting. It could be a vacuume leak, bad ECU, bad fuel pump... all of these tests are covered in the manual. FSM is best, but chilton will work for 80%+ of your repairs.
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When you are trying to free rev the engine does it blow black smoke out the tailpipe! It could be running rich and when it is in the lower rpm range it's flooding. The coolant temp sensor to the ecu could br reading too cold and causing it to add more fuel! The best thing would be hook up a scanner that allows you to see sensor info!
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I agree with the comment about using an FSM. My only suggestion is have you replaced the fuel filter? I don't know if that would cause this sort of problem on these vehicles, but I had something similar in other vehicles I have owned when the fuel filter is getting plugged up. Not exactly the same, but similar.
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Okay think I got it figured out! Yes I did change the fuel filter, may have made things worse!, A friend of mine came over to help me, he had his snap-on compression tester, My Auto-zone said 150-160 psi
his test or said 95-102, so I ran to napa and got a new compression tester and it said 100-110 psi. The book I have says 170 psi min.
New question will the 2.0L bolt up to my 5spd bellhousing, and what do I need to do the swap other than engine, harness, ecu, and fly wheel? Is a GV V6 an option?
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Never mind on the v6, did a search and got enough info to talk me out of that. so either rebuild the 8v or swap to the 2.0L, or VW TD but have been looking for one for a long time with no luck!
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New question will the 2.0L bolt up to my 5spd bellhousing, and what do I need to do the swap other than engine, harness, ecu, and fly wheel?
If you do a search on this forum you will find a thread by Sean at Aftermarket4x4. He detailed this swap reasonably well. Alternatively Google Agftermarket4x4.
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Bummer >:(
Sean DeVinney |removethispart|@ Aftermarket4x4 has a lot of swap experience, and has a kit for the Tracker to 2.0L swap. He did a write up of his first Tracker -> 2.0L here: http://members.cox.net/aftermarket4x4/current_proj.html (http://members.cox.net/aftermarket4x4/current_proj.html)
22r / 22re swaps have been done too - VW is nice, but expensive & hard to find the engines. I would look into the 2.0L swap, or a more fresh 1.6L
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I'm still doing my reading on the 2.0L, but has any one done a torqer/performance 1.6 8v build artical?
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also try a compression test i had a bent valve in my sammy it did the same stuff
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I'm still doing my reading on the 2.0L, but has any one done a torqer/performance 1.6 8v build artical?
Zaggy did one a couple of years ago for a light aircraft. It should come up on a search.
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I know its been a while but.......I rebuilt the 1.6L 8v.......here's what the problems were!
1 4 bad exaughst valves
2 the crank/timing belt sprocket key was almost sheared, and the key way was wallered out(bad crank)
3 the rings had lost there tention
4 rear main seal was bad,,,way bad
5 I had the head shaved 0.025" for good measure
It's all fixed now, I can do a 2wd high rage smoke show with my 35x12.50's and 5.71 gears thank's for all the input!!!!!:BIG:
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Congrats on rebuild!
Was it difficult? How much money did you spend? What parts did you buy? Any performance upgrades?
I want to rebuild an engine just for kicks someday...I need to learn somehow.
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I want to rebuild an engine just for kicks someday...I need to learn somehow.
Unless you've got money to burn, these might not be the best to do a full rebuild on. The $$$ can add up quickly, and you've still got a sub 100HP motor at the end of it all. For not much more $$$, you can upgrade to an engine in the 130-150 HP range. I'm seeing 22r motors pop up in the $500 range every couple weeks now. http://www.car-part.com/ (http://www.car-part.com/) is a good search engine if you're having problems locating an engine on the traditionally cheaper web sites (here, craigslist, pirate, toyota forums etc):
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Thanks jeremiah.
I'm quite fond of my little tracker....and I have some thoughts I might like to share with you all.
I believe there's a point at which it would be a HUGE waste to spend any more money on it...because it is after all...just a 91 Geo. AND, I think I'm quite near that now or beyond it. I'll never get the money back that I put into it.
However....
IF I could modify it or change a few things about it...I can make it drive and feel like a totally different vehicle, and make spending all my money on it slightly more worth it.
Example.. motor swap... complete suspension upgrade...
Just a couple ways I can make my Geo....less of a Geo. I think down the road if I keep it...spend even more money on it...upgrade and modify it, I can transform it into a nicer, more respectable set of wheels. And maybe even a proper off-roader.
This is why I bring up these somewhat radical ideas. :P
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a HUGE waste to spend any more money on it...because it is after all...just a 91 Geo.
Just keep telling yourself it's actually a suzuki, ::) That'll make you feel better.
Then, get the kit, drop in a nicely built 2.0, bored out with a ported and polished head and you got twice the HP! That seems simpler than the v6 swap.
I think thats what I wanna do to mine, only with a water cooled turbo, intercooler under the hood like the wrx, forged bottom end and a 1 piece forged main cradle(possibly even custom drilled block for four bolt mains like a bowtie block). My ricer friends seem to think we can get 400 hp out of a 2.0 as long as I can keep the bottom end together. 250-300 with no fear of blowin up! And still lighter than some other swaps too(chevy v6) How's that for changin the way it drives? >:D
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Then, get the kit, drop in a nicely built 2.0, bored out with a ported and polished head and you got twice the HP!
I'd like to see the dyno numbers to back this up. The 2.0L is about 130 HP & Torque stock. I have a hard time believing a port, polish & bored out pistons are going to give it 70 HP.
My ricer friends seem to think we can get 400 hp out of a 2.0 as long as I can keep the bottom end together.
Sure. If you don't mind a lot of turbo lag, or short engine lifespan, it can be done. I'd say over 1/2 of the "upgrades" drag racers do will KILL the 4x4 usability. In off road (with the exception of mud & sand dunes), it's low RPM torque we're interested in, not high RPM peak HP numbers. Turbos are good. A turbo on a 2.0L would be uber-sweet. But you want a SMALL turbo running MILD (~7PSI) boost, and screw the water-cooled gizzy. You won't need it for mild boost.
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A 2.0 with a turbo would so frickin sweeeet!!!
What kind of cars can I jack this 2.0 from? Same question for turbo. And how many dollars do I need to make this happen? I'll need more ponies for what I plan on doing.
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Turbo & Engine:
Easiest 2.0L would be from a Tracker. I believe they first became available in 1998 models, and became standard in 2000 (do NOT quote me on this, but I think it's accurate). For a turbo, you want something smaller than most Garret T3's (very few / rare T3's will have the trim level you need for low-lag applications in a 2.0L). A Garrett T25 / T28, or IHI RHB5 is a good place to start looking. Check out TeamSwift.net for more info on turbo selection - just keep in mind those guys are (mostly) only interested in a very narrow high-RPM high-HP power band (for some form of racing or another). So, look for turbos they consider "small" or "low power" if you want little-to-no turbo lag. Even 7 PSI of boost should easily give you 30% more power - especially with a high-flow intake / exhaust system.
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I spent a bunch of time making a list w/ prices for a turbo setup. To make a long story short, expect to spend $1,500 - $3,500 depending on how wild & bling factor you are. A couple helpful links:
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,85570.0.html (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,85570.0.html)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=315025 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=315025)
I can't find the build bentparts did, but I think you can find it if you do a search here & pirate.
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One more link...
http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/thk.html (http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/thk.html)
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The 2.0L is about 130 HP & Torque stock
Isn't that about twice what an 8 valve has, ??? sorry for not dynoin' every engine zuki makes. Next time I'll be sure to keep my cool ideas to myself! Oh yeah, I'll tell my ricer friends they're nuts, especially the one with the 800 hp 1.8L integra. Oh and BTW the "water cooled" turbo from a late model volvo or saab spools at only about 1500 RPM.
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Slow your roll there. No one's asking you to keep your ideas to yourself: this is a discussion forum where people will have varying ideas on builds. Sometimes those ideas will be different from yours. I'm typing all this out so people can make informed decisions about their own builds - not trying to kick you in the nutz.
* 1.6L 8V = 80HP (~60% shy of the 2.0L)
* 1.6L 16V = 95 HP (~30% shy of the 2.0L)
* Your ricer friends aren't nutz. But, if they're squeezing 800 HP out of a 1.8L, his power band is going to be very narrow, and I guarantee he's got turbo lag. This isn't something you're worried about in a race, as you only need a very narrow (500-1000 RPM) power band, it's okay if it's the last few RPM on the tach, and a blown motor won't leave you stranded 100 miles from anything resembling a parts store. In 4 wheeling, we generally have opposing power & reliability needs (we want the power quick, early, and across a broader RPM range). If you want a mustang-eating sidekick, more power to you. But to make the suggestion to build a high HP Turbo monster to someone else, one should also mention the draw backs.
* It's my understanding Volvo tends to turbo larger (2.4Lish) engines (I believe SAAB does the same with mid-2L engines using Mitsubishi TD04 turbos), which pump more exhaust fumes and therefore can spool turbos much more quickly than a 1.6L or 2.0L. BUT, to get the kind of HP you're talking about, a larger turbo is needed - which will spool less quickly (read: turbo lag). Volvo also uses forged bits in their tubo blocks, so they last longer - not sure about SAAB, but I'm sure they beef up their internals too.
Other turbos donors to look for if you're going the junk yard route: Subaru, small industrial diesel engines, Mutsubishi Eclipse & Tallons, some Ford T-birds...
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Sidekick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Sidekick)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_B21_engine#B23_Turbo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_B21_engine#B23_Turbo)
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Sweet...precious information! Thanks a ton guys. I appreciate your wealth of knowledge. ;D
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Jeremiah, sorry for jumpin on you, ::) I get a little defensive(read: pissy) when I throw an idea out there that is still in it's own research stages, and have the very next reply be "back it up". I was only implying that with a nicely built 2.0, bored out with a ported and polished head, that you can get twice the HP over the 8 valve. Not a super long shot if a 2.0's 130hp and a 8v is only 80. I was only suggesting the 2.0 swap, not really the "high HP Turbo monster" that I'm planning to do to mine. Again I do apologize for jumpin on you though. ::)
Matt
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No worries man - welcome to the addiction ;)
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cause it is after all...just a 91 Geo
:o Can u say that on here wait till the mods see this hahah
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haha. I've said that a few times already in a couple threads and I am still alive...soooo ya I suppose you can say it. All just a matter of opinion anyhow. ;)
To be honest...I love my little geo. It's utterly useless to almost anyone but me and a few of you crazy nutjobs....but it gets me places, and it's a blast to drive in the bush. sooo.. ::) However, it IS for sale if anyone is interested. Takers??
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im the same with my kick. i get odd looks wherever i take it wheelin... everyone goes and thinks it cant get anywhere cause its stock... then it goes past them through the mud or up the trail. and i get the odd questions of what did i do to it...
what other vehicle can do that...
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My favorite was when two dove tailed (right term?) K5 Blazers with lockers couldn't make a long hill climb. They got denied over and over... I dropped my 4-door "just a geo" into 4wd, pulled 3rd gear, and walked it up at around 4500 RPM. Never slowed down, never bogged, just went right up. Parked at the top and watched 'em for a while :D One of them eventually made it up, I got bored and continued on... don't know if the other made it, or went around. They caught up later, and I got "the nod".
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Hah! Nice! ;D
I'm sure your's is way nicer than mine though. I have about 2500 dollars into mine...including the price of the tracker itself. Stock diffs, stock transfer case, stock motor.....All I have is some ground clearance, tires, and serious skillz. :P
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I had my 29" Pep Boys M/T tires on, but no lift. Basically the tires are crazy-agressive tread... between that and the Geo only weighing in at probably 2500 lbs (guessing, I don't know what 4-doors weigh for sure), with the weight distributed better over my front and rear tires, I had a huge advantage.
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Congrats on rebuild!
Was it difficult? How much money did you spend? What parts did you buy? Any performance upgrades?
I want to rebuild an engine just for kicks someday...I need to learn somehow.
wasn't hard at all, and cost me around $400, bout the same as a small block chevy, but it runs great.....nextime I would take 0.030 off the head.......
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Sweet! Maybe I'll rebuild my small block chevy that's in my Trans Am then. Sounds cheap enough.