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ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Grand Vitara, Vitara, Chevy Tracker (Gen. 2 Platform) 1999-2005 => Topic started by: BackWoodsTracker on March 24, 2009, 07:47:00 PM
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OK, this is not my first break bleed, but it's driving me nuts. I know I have air in the lines, low pedal, pump it and they work fine. My problem is that when trying to bleed the brakes, the only time the pedal will go to the floor is on the left rear bleeder. I work at an auto restoration shop(bookkeeper) and our mechanic is trying to tell me that this is how the system is with the LSPV. I highly doubt that I should have to pump up the brakes for them to work, especially since I never had to before I replaced the rear brake hose. I tried one of those vaccuum type things, don't waste your money on one, I had no brakes after that! No matter how much I try the pump 'em up method, it just doesn't bleed right. Every other vehicle I've done will let the pedal go right to the floor no matter which bleeder you open. Any ideas on what's up?
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Looking at a FSM... it starts out with
"Bleed the hydraulic brake system in the following sequence:"
1. left front wheel
2. LSPV (for non-ABS)
3. Right front caliper
4. Left front caliper
If air enters the hydraulic brake system due to low brake fluid, bleed the system at the four bleeder valves.
Manual bleeding
1. ensure engine is off (what a great idea!)
2. press brake pedal several times in order to remove the vacumm system reserve
3. clean around reservoir cap
4. remove reservoir cap
5. fill reservoir with brake fluid. keep reservoir at least half full during bleeding.
6. install reservoir cap
7. remove the bleeder cap
8. Attach clear tubing to bleeder valve. Submerge the other end in clear container partially filled with brake fluid.
9. have someone press the brake pedal several times, then hold it fully pressed
10 with the brake pedal fully pressed, loosen the bleeder valve about 1/2 turn. the brake pedal should fall all the way to the floor as the fluid flows out the bleeder
11 close bleeder (66.4 lb in on wheel cyclinder) (75.4 for caliper bleeder)
12 have the second person slowly release thepedal
13 repeat the procedure until air bubbles no longer appear in the clear liquid
14 install bleeder cap
15 repeat above procedure at all bleeder valves that require bleeding
16 replenish brake fluid in master cyclinder to the max mark and install cap
17 pump the brake pedal
18 inspect hydraulic system for leaks
19 inspect the brake pedal feel for sponginess and the brake indicator for indication of an unbalanced pressure. repeat the entire bleeding procedure in order to correct either of these conditions.
Pressure bleeding
Must be diaphragm type and must have a rubber diaphragm between the air supply and the brake fluid....
Don't know if this info helps with your problem you're having or not, but for what it is worth...
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One problem I remember on another car with a solid rear axle - the air collected at the high point in the line at the rear, and did not want to move down to the wheel cylinders.
What helped was jacking the rear of the vehicle as high as it could go. Then, instead of just a few pumps on the pedal before opening the bleeder, give thirty or so really hard pushes - try to get the pedal through the floor! Then hold down on the last push and open the bleeder. Did that four or five times on both rears, and it worked - perfect brakes. That was after the professionals had given up and said that the spongy feel was the best they could do.
Worth a try!
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Thanks guys, I bled the brakes just as nprecon posted, about 20 times, still spongy. I'll try jacking up the rear today. Any idea why the pedal won't go to the floor on either of the front calipers, or on the LSPV? Even taking the bleeders all the way out doesn't change it. In my FSM it has a fluid pressure check, is there a way to check without the special tools they have listed, or shoud I just take it to a dealership and have them check it? We do have some pressure gauge stuff at the shop, but I have no faith in our mechanic, I know more than he does. He can't even set points, I'd have fired him on his second day!
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could an improper replacement part cause this error??
I leave brakes to my mechanic since they are for safety
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All I replaced was the rear brake hose. There are no leaks anywhere on it. I must have bled this thing about 100 times today, all different variations of ways. I'm thinking it might be that LSPV thing as that's the only thing I know nothing about. Right now I'm leaning towards a rear disc conversion and replace everything( ???wondering how that kit for the 68 Firebird would fit ???). For now I'm just gonna drive the damn minivan, God I hate that thing! It doesn't help being laidoff, other than I have all day to work on it and still have access to the garage. I'm working on the Firebird tomorrow, kind of fed up with the Tracker right now.
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If you only replaced a rear hose, chances are the air is only in the rear, and the method I suggested could do it.
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I did try lifting the back when bleeding, it did nothing. I'll try it again, but not today. Gotta get the motor in the bird.
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Well, I give up on this. I messed with everything I can think of. The dealership says they'll diagnose the prob for me for $50. It'll be dropped off Wednesday. I wish I'd have caleed them sooner, $50, I damn near spent that for break fluid!!!!
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I'm told it's a $400 LSPV that needs to be replaced. I'm going to a junk yard, but only after my other post is answered.
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who installed the new parts? if it was the dealer i would take it back and say fix it, if it was you, you still have not bled the system right.....
most shops have a pressure bleeder, it bolts to the brake res tank and feeds pressurized brake fluid into the system, all you have to do it go to each bleed nipple and and wait for all the air to come out, no need to pump or anything.......
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I took it back from the dealer after they failed to get pressure also. I put a new mastercylinder and a junk yard LSPV on it and got worse brakes than I started with. This was after I had the dealer diagnose it as a mastercylinder. I then took it back to the dealer and paid $987 for them to put a new mastercylinder on it. Still wasn't the problem, they were atleast good enough to agree that I wasn't going to pay for that as it didn't fix thre problem. I had told them it was a new master and didn't want to spend more $ on another one. They told me I installed it wrong and "guaranteed it was the problem. They did stand behind their words, give em credit there. So then I figured they earned the right to just fix it. $1172 bill later, still no brakes. We settled on $400 because the brakes still don't work and I'm not just going to keep throwing money at it. I'm done, the dealer can't tell me why I have no brakes, and at this point, I really don't care. I bled the brakes in every way you can think of, it doesn't help. I'm going back to old school technology. 1974 Jimmy 2 miles away might just come home with me tomorrow! Maybe he'll trade!
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I hate to hear that. It's got to be something far more simple as you've replaced most of the major components to the brake system. For what it's worth not all dealers or shops actually spend the money to purchase the specialty tools the manufacturer identifies as unique to a certain vehicle. A lot of the specialty tools you can work around but some are essential (like the socket for the front axle hub bearings). Hell, I'm not even convinced all dealerships and shops have people who are actually trained or have experience working on the vehicles they sell or service anymore. For example... "you didn't replace the master cyclinder correctly... they could and they guranteed that's the fix...". I am impressed they at least didn't try to break it off in you to settle up when they didn't fix the problem. That at least elevates them to an honest shop which is difficult to come across nowadays.
For instance, something as simple as changing brake pads... I've done Jeeps, Hondas, Fiestas, Chevy trucks, Trackers...but when I went to change the rears on a Ford Focus I had bought... suddenly you needed a unique tool to compress the piston (rotates the piston as it compresses) and if you didn't use that tool you ended up binding the caliper and frying the new pads along with the rotor... and the bearing to boot.
The one issue that strikes me here is YOU couldn't find the problem... and they, the one shop (dealership) you went to couldn't finid the problem. Sounds like it's time for a different technician to look at the symptoms and what's been done to date to find the smoking gun. Hell, how much more expensive could it be???? You've already replaced damned near everything in the systemi!!
Gurantee once the problem is identified... you'll never have that problem again... plus you can share the fix with the forum so if we ever encounter the problem, we'll be wiser. These damned trucks are just too reliable to be giviing up the ghost too soon.
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I really don't have the cash to keep throwing at the same problem. There is one more dealer I could tow it to, but I have never heard a good word about the place. I work(ed) at a restoration shop, and both mechanics have looked at it. All anybody can keep telling me is that I must still have air in the lines. I've tried pumping to bleed, gravity ( just break the bleeders and let it flow), I tried pumping fluid from the bleeders up the the master cylinder, and tried pressure from the master down. I don't know how else to try, and I really don't want to pay a few hundred more to have another person try the same things. It'll sit behind the garage until I save up some more cash to throw at it. I did like the vehicle until this problem, but this is getting to me.
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OK, so today I took the master cylinder off to bench bleed it and stert from scratch. I had 2 ASE mechanics over so I figured today waas the day to do it. Bench bleed went great. Installed it and let Dave and Forrest go at it. About an hour later they decided that the mc was shot. So off it came for inspection. It was blead again, then Dave put plugs in the ports instead of the hoses that come with the new mc's. With the plugs in, you couldn't push the plunger at all. Both guys agreed that this meant the mc was good because it help pressure just fine. Back in the Tracker it went, plugs still in place. They started one line at a time and bled as they went(they used the pressure bleeder I rigged up). Had great pedal up until they connected the last line, then nothing. We played with the order we connected the lines and it didn't matter which of the three lines in the front were the last to be connected, we always lost pressure. We tried many different positions for the LSPV tention with no difference. In the end, they gave up and just left on port plugged so I can have more than just the e brake. That's two more ASE mechanics besides the 2 at work and the dealership guys. Dave says he would solce it with Toy SAS, the wife says no.
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo280/BackWoodsTracker/DansPics.jpg)
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GEEEEZ!!! How frustrating that must be. What's the tubing out of the top of the cap doin for ya? Extra insurance you're drawing some air? Did ya check the brake vacuum ? Minimum engine vacumm (according to the FSM) is 17 in Hg or 57.6 kPa at normal operating temperature. Engine vacuum up to standard?
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That's funny, I already replaced the tubing with a plug. I just didn't have one at the time of the picture. It was replaced before we finished messing with it. Don'y need the engine running to get no pressure.
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Yeah, that's right, vacuum assist won't help if there's no pedal pressure to start with.... what's the chances that the proportioning valve is/was defective right from the manufacturer (new)? How do you test the valve to insure it's working... short of installing it? What happens if it doesn't work correctly? What other part of the hydraulic brake system would cause this particular problem that you are experiencinig, given you have NO fluid leaks in your system and no air in your lines?????? There has to be a smokin gun here. The smoke is just damned hard to see.
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My bet is still master cylinder.
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That seems to be both Dave and Forrest's opinion as well. I just don't believe that I could have so many bad master cylinders. And I have replaced many over the years, so I know how to bench bleed them. Plus, there were two other ASE Mechanics that installed new ones for me. Dave is ordering one out of his pocket. If it fixes the problem, I'll pay for it. I'll let you know Thursday when we get it. Now back to wet sanding the boat!
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I had some starting trouble with a car years ago. After pulling the battery (checked okay), I pulled the starter and it checked out okay. So.....alternator. Pulled it and had it checked -- "okay". So.....replaced the starter anyway. STILL didn't fix my problem. Back to the drawing board. Even dug out the alternator again (lots of work) and had it checked -- still "okay". Lots and lots and lots of head scratching and cussing later..... it turn out the new (remanufactured I think) starter was bad.
It sucks when you think you've ruled something out as a problem, when in actuality....not.
Your problem has all the earmarks of this.
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Well, I didn't have to pay for another master cylinder! He was able to return it, so he's not out anything either. Now he want's to order another $400 LSPV's. I'll post when that happens. This is my boat towing vehicle, it's really starting to piss me off!
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It's going in to a different dealership today. We'll see how much this is gonna cost me now. At this point, I don't care, I just need it so I can tow my boat to the lake!
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Well, they put another new master cylinder on it, that wasn't it. So they put a new LSPV on, that wasn't it either. So they said I must have a restriction in the lines and replaced them all, still no brakes. This is another $800 into this thing now and I'm no closer to a solution. I think it might go up for sale.
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The dealership says they want to put a power booster on next. As their mechanic said," it's the next part to throw at it." When I asked him what the booster has to do with the brakes when the motor is not running, he said again, it's just the next part to throw at it. That answer is not good enough for me. So, if anybody could give me a reason that the booster could have an affect, let me know. I'm done putting money into this just to throw money at it.
Note: With one line plugged, the brakes work just fine, so I have doubts that the booster will fix anything.
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"Note: With one line plugged, the brakes work just fine.... "
That's the part that just doesn't make sense. Three lines is fine but four lines they go soft again.
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what does that "blocked off" line go to?
and what did you do just before the problems?
just to work backwards "every action causes a reaction" type thing.......
i want you to fix it just so i know whats wrong, its bugging me now LOL
-Lance
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It doesn't matter which line is plugged, so I can't seem to trace it to one area. I didn't do anything to cause this, the brakes just went soft on my way to work. I never took a vehicle to a dealer to get fixed. I finally admitted defeat on this and took it in only to spend way too much to get nowhere. I'll never again pay for somebody to work on my cars! If I can't do it, it'll go to the junk yard!!!!
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the last time i had that issue, was when i did a Toyota v6 caliper upgrade on my sas sidekick, basically once i put the larger calipers on it, my master cyl was not large enough to flow enough fluid to the larger pistons inside the calipers.
is it possible that your master did go bad, but the first replacement master was the wrong size (say from a 2.0 4 cyl) and when it was replaced the second time, it was replaced with the same wrong part because they just matched it up to what was on there?
on another note, has anyone looked at the linkage under the dash to make sure nothing has bent or come undone? i have seen (only once) the bracket that holds the brake pedal assembly, the weld broke, and when the pedal was pressed it would go down and put a bit of pressure on the master, and then just bend out out of the way, to make it seem like the pedal was being pressed to the floor.
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The linlage must be good because I have great pedal with 1 line blocked off. You might just have something with the wrong master cylinder though. I was told they were the same part # at both dealers though. I'll be looking into that right away.
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That's a brilliant thought there, sir lance! Hadn't thought about that one. It's got to be something along those lines. Blatantly obvious... but taken for granted because it is so obvious.
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Can anybody come up with a different part number for the 2.5 vs. the 2.0 master cylinders? I am told by both dealerships that they interchange.
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I don't have access to Tracker info but on the Suzuki SQ420 & SQ625 the master cylinder part numbers differ based on the year and with or without ABS - I'm seeing four (4) different numbers, however I have no details as to whether they are interchangeable or not.
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I just took apart my original mastrer and one of the new ones. They are identical in every way shape and form. I was a machinist for 17 years, I checked every dimention I could. I think these are the same. I know the original master worked at one time, not all that long ago. Boy I sure wish it still did! :'(
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I have brakes!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It just so happens that my dad's neighbor teaches auto mech at the local tech school here. 30 some years of knowing the guy and I never knkew what he did?? Well, I went on vacation and dropped it off at my dads so neighbor dude could look at it. My dad calls me and says he got the brakes working, it'll cost me $4.00 for the part, and we'd discuss the rest when I get home. It seems that both calipers had 1 bolt frozen, or almost frozen. With one line plugged, it'd have the pressure to move 1 caliper, either 1. He broke 1 bolt, saved the other and they work just fine now. I can't wait to go back to Boucher Cheverolet and Lynch Chevy as well to talk to their mechs. I feel stupid about it, but they both should have found that problem. That update will come in a few days, I'll keep ya's posted.
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YEAH!!!! Glad to hear it! Now here's another factoid for us when we get stumped on our trucks. Give that guy a quality cigar and a six-pack!! Your problem was getting a bit spooky.
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oh good, now i can stop racking my brain out a few times a day thinking about what the problem is, it was starting to piss me off lol