ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: chestertalley on June 16, 2009, 11:51:56 PM
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I am not sure if there is already a thread about this, but I am planning on doing a solid axle swap on a '89 sidekick. I want to use a Dana 30 (Jeep front axle) as they have the same bolt pattern as the kick, but I may be doing a Dana 35 in the rear at the same time or maybe later on. The plan is to have a rig for general off- road, I dont particularly do rock crawling but that seems like a good type of vehicle to aim for. I just want to be able to go anywhere, including on-road.
So, what I am wondering is, should I go with leaf springs or coil springs?
The kick is currently running coils, which I hear gives a softer ride with more articulation. If I do coils then I would have to design a whole four-link system and buy expensive heim joints and stuff. I could also do a radius arm setup like coilspring jeeps have (cherokees are the only ones I know of).
Leaf springs would be more simple and some people prefer for this and the fact that they are easy(-er than coils with 4-link/radius arms) to install. But I hear that they are generally stiffer and have less articulation. But couldn't this be fixed with longer and softer springs?
Most of the articles I have seen that compare coils and leaves end up with saying that coils are technically better but leaves are just fine. I have all the materials I would need and I have fabrication skills (which would mean the more complicated coil spring set up is a little less complicated than for most people), but this project is supposed to be a budget weekend warrior. So, should I go with the easy, simple, and cheaper leaf spring set up or should I do the more complicated, more expensive, coil spring set up?
Any info on the leaf/coil comparison is appreciated. I just cant decide if coils are worth the extra time and money.
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Anything can be made to work. A Leaf Spring setup is going to be easier, but if you have the time to plan it out a 4 link setup isn't that hard. You can make it even easier by building a 3 link setup instead of a 4 link so you don't need to worry quite as much about your triangulation.
And you don't need to use Heims, you can just use the ends you already have. For half of my suspension I actually cut the eye's off of a set of leaf springs and welded them onto the arms, that way if I need to replace the bushings I can just order a stock set of replacements.
As for the rear axle, I would go with an 8.8 or something besides the Dana 35c. Just to avoid getting stuck with a c-clip style rear end. If your swapping both axles you might as well look at changing the bolt pattern at the same time unless you have a really fancy set of wheels. Your front axle is going to have to be from a CJ series, on the YJ and Cherokees they switched over to 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern.
Are you building this for trail only or for road and trail use?
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I am still loving the Trail Slayer link set up Liberty Overland did on mine. Even with the 37's my Kick sees more pavement than trail action and does awesome in both situations. I'm hoping to do a 6 hour drive to Attica (iZook's ZukiMelt) next weekend, trail ride and drive her home. But in the opposite spectrum, a friend of mine did his SAS Tundra with leafs and he always drives to events with me too (he did last years Ultimate Adventure and is doing it again this year). The main issue he had to tackle was axle wrap and trashing his springs.
Zig
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It sounds like your pretty sold on leafs but I can say without a doubt... go with the coils and a good link setup. There are so many aspects of ride and performance that are better with coils in almost every instance that make the extra work worth it. PLUS: The Sidekick already has coil buckets on the frame, good placement for shocks on the frame, and comes with a pair of links (bottom rear) that can be sleeved and will make great long travel links if you're on a budget. Just go to the local wrecker and get 3 or 4 sets of these stock links and some good tubing and boom! you're 1/3 the way there! :)
Or, by a kit to do it. It is worth it....
Also, consider Toyota or Dana 44 axles.. The ones you've suggested just won't perform without big upgrades or big breakage.
YMMV
Good luck, Eric
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Great, thanks for the info guys. To answer a few of your questions: yes I will be driving it on the road, probably about as much as on the trail. Actually the way Zukipilot described his rig sounds like exactly what I want. I forgot to mention that I want to run at least 35" tires.
I may have made it sound like I'm leaning towards the leaves, but I was actually thinking coils would be better, but a part of me just wants to do what is easier, haha.
Well it sounds like you guys are pretty much against my Dana 30 idea. I just found a guy with just a 30 for $250 or the 30 and 35 for $400. I was just trying to decide if that was a good deal (I dont really know what they are worth). They have 3.07 gears and the rear is welded. I figured with a little 1.6 liter engine I wouldnt need to worry about the strength too much, but I probably would need lower gears. Is this really a problem? Again, this is a budget build, I want the cheapest thing that will work.
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Zukipilot, do you have a build thread or something for your car? I would love to see all of the detail shots of the suspension set up and everything. It would be really nice to have something to model my suspension after when I do the SAS. Thanks.
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http://zukiworld.com/month_020109/feature_suzuki-sidekick-build-up.htm (http://zukiworld.com/month_020109/feature_suzuki-sidekick-build-up.htm) ;) There is a link to Liberty Overland's web page in the article that will give you a few more pics.
If you go with the C-clip Jeep axles I don't think they have very low gearing. For example, our stock gearing for a 5 sped is a 5.18 (I think) and if you get a 4:1 t-case reduction turning 35's you will start to have axle breakage. I have Toyota axles in mine with longfield upgrades. They have been doing great holding up to the 37's.
Zig
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We recently did the sleeve thing on lower links. Here is what we did. pounded a piece of tube through the frame in the factory frame holes one forward of the stock link location. Purchased these cool brackets from ballistic fab and a triangle gusset from IMS. Little welding, little griding, little pounding and wabam! lower link mount that is tough and on the frame. For the link we cut and sleeved the factory links.
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We recently did the sleeve thing on lower links. Here is what we did. pounded a piece of tube through the frame in the factory frame holes one forward of the stock link location. Purchased these cool brackets from ballistic fab and a triangle gusset from IMS. Little welding, little griding, little pounding and wabam! lower link mount that is tough and on the frame. For the link we cut and sleeved the factory links.
I have run this set up on mine for the past couple of years! Works great!
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We recently did the sleeve thing on lower links. Here is what we did. pounded a piece of tube through the frame in the factory frame holes one forward of the stock link location. Purchased these cool brackets from ballistic fab and a triangle gusset from IMS. Little welding, little griding, little pounding and wabam! lower link mount that is tough and on the frame. For the link we cut and sleeved the factory links.
Thats cool, I really like that idea. Do you have any pictures of how you mounted the upper link/links?
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I think I'm going to take my 6.5 lift off my jeep cherokee and make it work under my 95 tracker. going to 4 link it all with the coils from the front of the jeep and find two more coils for the back. I think it will look awesome when its done. I will take notes and pictures when i do mine. I'll be running 33" tires for now but will see about 35 or bigger down the road.
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I weighed out the "cost vs gain" on my Suzuki & for me a Trail Tough kit was hard to beat. You would be well advised to make a call to Liberty Overland as they know well both side of the mod. your thinking of. I can tell you that a short wheel base veh. with altered lift can have a VERY poor ride on freeways & most other roads. Coil suspended veh.s ride better plus it's abillity to articulate is far better with the coil/link kits.
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I am still a little new to the world of 4x4s, so I don't know a much about gearing and stuff. Zukipilot, you said Toyota axles would be better because the Danas have high gearing (by the way, you mentioned stock kick gearing for a 5 spd kick, but mine is automatc. Does that make a difference?) and will break with large tires (35" minimum). Is that only after you replace the stock birfields with longfields and change the gearing? Could I put stock axles (danas or yotas) on the car and just expect to break either axles or ring and pinion? Because either way I would end up replacing them right? It will be alot easier to spend money gradually than all at once. I have many hobbies and all of them require money so unfortunately even the little bit that I make cannot all go to the kick.
I was at the junkyard the other day and saw a newer model jeep grand Cherokee with what looked like good axles, it was a 1997 I believe. I'm not sure if I should even be considering a D30 and D35 anymore after the feedback I have gotten from you guys, but I think I could get these axles for a decent price so it is tempting. The only thing is that the front axle had CV joints instead of u-joints. I'm guessing CVs would not be
recommended?
Thanks guys, so far this thread has been very helpful.
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Yea, you can fix as you go. The down fall to the C-clip style axles is when you break them. There is nothing holding your axle in place but the C-clip that is located in the center section. So broken axle usually results in wheel falling off, broken brake lines etc....
There are some guys here that are running up to 39's on a Toyota CV conversion kit that user '37kicker' sells. If you are wanting to stay IFS, that kit would fix your CV weak point, but you would probably want to go with a steel housing too.
Good luck on your build, keep us updated...
Zig
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Coils are far & above superior. I have a good amount of experience with both. I've never setup either, but I've done a lot of keyboard engineering (will be doing my first suspension soon), and coils don't look like they're that much more difficult to setup. Just a little more thought needs to go into it, and what you get is a better-riding vehicle, and no axle wrap. If you get a little sag from more weight down the road (adding armor, winch or whatever) a coil spring spacer is easy to install and re-level the rig.
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Yeah, that is basically what I have been thinking too Jeremiah.
Well, I have been looking around for axles so I can get this thing going and I cant seem to find Toyotas for a reasonable price. Usually just the front is $400-500. The plus side though is the rears are only around $100 usually. It is just a little hard to spend $450 on just the front axle when I could get both front and rear Jeep axles for around the same price. I have heard other people (people not from this site) also say that Toyotas are the best option, but I have yet to hear why. Zukipilot, you touched on that a little:
The down fall to the C-clip style axles is when you break them. There is nothing holding your axle in place but the C-clip that is located in the center section. So broken axle usually results in wheel falling off, broken brake lines etc....
Is this the only reason that they are bad? Cause this doesnt sound like too huge of a problem to me.
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toyota axles are stronger than most. also they have a high center on the pumpkin so you get more clearance. also there are alot of options on gearing for them too. Just think I want two front toyota axles for my project but for now I'm going to just use the axles from my cherokee only thing is the front is drivers drop so i have to cut it apart and make it pass drop. thats going to be interesting to do.
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My favorite upgrade to the toy axle (also available for dana) is the Aussie Locker. It works SOOOOOO much better than typical lunchbox lockers. No clickty bang or other BS. I never notice it's there (both on and off road) which is a GOOD thing. It means it's locked when it's supposed to be, and unlocked when it's supposed to be... and doesn't fuss about it... ever.
That said, Toy axles are stronger than D44 (stock), and can be built up to be as strong as a D60. Better diff to ground clearance. They're virtually bulletproof (under 99% of Suzukis) with a little trussing & Longfield axles. They also have the same break threading at Suzuki (Dana requires adapters). I did notice my turning radius isn't the same... but you can get that back if you use Longfields (adjust the turn stops). I've seen D44's break under a Suzuki (granted, they had BIG tires), but never seen a toy axle break under a Suzuki. It's my understanding the hubs are stronger too.
And, the aftermarket support is INCREDIBLE.
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But wouldn't all of this be true about a Dana 30? Well besides the part about the toys being stronger than a Dana 44, but I have a feeling that statement is partially opinion (not trying to cause trouble, I just want to make sure I get the best information). I am sure that the aftermarket for Dana 30's is not lacking, and whether I have a 30 or a Toy, I am planning to get a stock one and run it until it breaks and then replace the parts with better quality. Also, I have heard that Birfields are not as strong as U-joints, but then again everybody that says that also says that for a suzuki they would be fine, especially if I put in Longfields eventually. Again I am not just shooting down everything you say for the fun of it. I just still have not heard anything that would make me think Toyotas are superior. They are both common, with large aftermarkets. The only info I can get is that Dana 30's are stronger than Toyotas stock (because of the U-joints), but then everybody says to use Toyotas on a Suzuki...
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well its just opinions and you can run what you want. like you said not trying to make trouble. I'm just going by what i have been told. now on to the dana 30 axle. that is what I will be putting under my tracker but its from a xj and they dont have lock outs and its drivers drop and i need a pass drop. so i have to make it into one. the reason I'm doing that is very limited funds and I have the axles. and I'm going to run them until i can find two front toyota axles then it will be four wheel steer. But my best advise is use what you can get and what you think will work for your application. Hope you understand my point of view and that is just my opinion. good luck
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Yeah I understand. I might end up going with Jeep axles for the same reason. I can find them at an affordable price.
I have really only come across one toyota front axle that seems like it is what I am looking for and it is going for $450! Basically, the toyotas would end up costing over $100 more than the Jeep axles. Well thanks for the advice guys, I guess all that is left now is getting some axles and getting to work! Whenever I finally get to that point (of actually doing some work) I can post pics and stuff if you guys would like. I think I am going to go with a coil/link set up. I might end up doing something similar to the Trail Slayer link system, that has a pretty nice bracket system and keeps everything up tight and people have a lot of good things to say about that kit.
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If stock for stock, the Toyotas are weaker, then why are the Jeepers selling their axles (which is why they're so cheap), and buying Toyotas? U-joints aren't bullet proof, nor are they necessarily stronger than birf. When I went to the Rubicon with over a dozen Suzuki guys (who all wheel together in Oregon all the time), the only guys having axle trouble where:
* 33" tires, busted stock passenger Samurai birf
* 33" tires, busted D44 on a Samurai
* 37" tires, busted BOTH axles and BOTH u-joints on a D44
NO ONE running Toyota axles broke.
Some is opinion, but not all. Toyota axles are more expensive because they're considered stronger & more desirable. Much of it is from people who've run both axles, and from testing:
http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/graph.html (http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/graph.html)
Normally manufacturer testing doesn't impress me much at all. HOWEVER, Bobby Long goes out to shows, and demonstrates the above test live and in person several times a year. There's dozens (hundreds?) of threads out there where people report their real-live experience with the axles - and Toytota almost always gets the nod over dana axles when compaired to D30-D44. They frequently get the nod more than D60 (around 40" tire or less) because of the smaller diff housing. The D60 gets the thumbs up in BIG tires on MUCH HEAVIER rigs... but only after the D60 has been upgraded itself.
The down side of Toyota axles (as compared to a D60):
* The stock knuckle bolts can shear. Most people say this is because they need to be re-torqued every so-often, and people are too lazy to regularly check them. Fix: Check your bolts every so often, buy ARP bolts, weld on a tab for a 5th bolt, or replace the knuckles all together with "the six pack".
* Cheap aftermarket (and especially poorly setup) diff gears will break. But, that's universally true of all axles. Buy good gears, and set them up correctly.
* Axle tubes aren't as strong as D60, they must be trussed if you're going to abuse them. This is equally ture of the Jeep axles.
Often times I look at these discussions, roll my eyes, and think to myself, "Oh boy, another Ford / Chevy debate.". But, in my experience on trail / reading threds, Toyota tends to be the clear winner, and well worth the extra $100.
Keep in mind - Trail Toughs double tough axles have been getting a lot of accolades. Last I heard, no one's broke a set yet :o You could just buy those, truss up the axles, armor up the diff and be done with it.
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Haha, now that you mention it, this is sort of like a Ford/Chevy argument. But it seems like this is a Chevy site (or Ford, whichever you prefer).
Well, I did figure out a way that I might be able to do the Toyota axles without too much extra cost. I can get a rear axle for free, but it is from a 2-wheel drive truck. I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't work, but I want to make sure. Anybody have any reason why I shouldn't use it?
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Anybody have any reason why I shouldn't use it?
Pretty sure the 4x4 = 6 bolt, and 2WD = 5 bolt :'(
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Aww crap, you're right. The 2wd is 5 bolt. :( well so much for that plan. I was so excited too...
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I found out that a friend of mine has axles from a Land Cruiser that he doesnt need. I think they are the same width as a pickup but he said they are beefier (ring and pinion is bigger and stuff). That is pretty much all I know about them so far but I will try to find out more soon.
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They're good stuff.
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I talked to my friend today and he said the axles are out of a '72-'74 landcruiser. They already have 4.11 gears and have been re-drilled to a 5x5.5 bolt pattern. Sounds pretty cool! He said one of them is missing the ring gear (and hopefully nothing else, he has never had it apart to check). He said they use an old style of drum brakes that is not as effective as some of the newer versions but I'm not sure how much of a difference that will make. Anybody know anything helpful about these axles?
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I would go check out http://www.ih8mud.com/ as they are pretty up to date on Cruiser info. :)