ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: bentparts on July 28, 2009, 01:27:52 PM
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I've looked at the threads about Suburu Master Cylinders and the swap for Sammi's, this being on the Zuhwarrie site. I still can't find specific information about swapping MC/s in a 2 door kick, with ABS. My 95 has been upgraded with 4 door calipers and rotors already, and I'd like to get some better feel, and less travel and I think the bigger master cylinder would accomplish this. My questions are:
1. Should I, or even could I, remove all the RWAL plumbing under the stock master cylinder and have the brake lines connected directly to the new MC? The RWAL tone ring is already removed from my rear diff due to the ARB install, so I don't think I have RWAL anyway.
2. Will the Suburu MC work on the Trackick? According to the Zuhwarrie post, it's a definite maybe. I've posted these qusetions there and am still waiting on a response. Anyone here have any info or did this swap, any insight would be greatly appreciated. I found the correct Subie MC at a local wreckers for $50, complete with res. None avail at the local u pull it's.
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I'm not very familiar with the RWAL but it def. won't work without the tone ring. Can't you use the 4-dr master cylinder?
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I actually have a 4 door MC, but it's only a 15/16ths bore. I thought it would be bigger. The Subie MC is 1/1/16th". The 4 door master cylinder I have has the brake line connections on the opposite side, although I don't think that's too big a deal. What I really want to know is what effect removing all that RWAL pluming will have on the system, if any. It would sure simplify everything If I could remove it. Then I could just modify the brake lines to fit directly onto the MC.
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I also have the 4 door brakes on my 2 door. Brake travel is usually adjustable but brake feel is subjective unless there is air in the line. I am sure you have the air out. My 97 does not have rear anti-lock so you could easily find one like mine in a yard and convert it to non anti-lock removing the needed brake lines or make your own. You are welcome to drive mine to see how my brakes feel. I am still using the 2-door master cylinder.
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Actually Dave, my issue is brake pedal travel. The stopping power is fine. I just finished replacing rear shoes and both wheel cylinders, and I use a Mityvac bleeder to get the air out. It usually works fine. The pedal will get nice and firm, and truck stops well, but it takes about 3/4 of it's total travel to get there. I usually have to adjust the rear shoes a bit loose to get the drums back on, could this be where the pedal travel comes from? How would I go about adjusting the pedal travel? Thanks, Mike
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Sounds like you either need to get new rear drums or have your old ones machined so they don't have a lip on them. Cheap solution would be to adjust the drum brakes out inside the old drums. That will shorten the brake pedal. I usually adjust them so there is just a slight drag. That will give me a soild pedal. I would skip the whole master cylinder swap mess and spend money on rear brake drums or drum machining. Advance Auto has 4 door drums a $44 each. That would be my choice.
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Thanks, I may have to look into that. The drums have almost 100k on them, many of that soaked in Jersey Pinebarrens muddy water. I regularly have to clean the drums out and replace the shoes, they get so buggered up from the mud. I'll look into some drums tommorow.
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Put your old front 2door rotors and calipers on the rear with TT's adapter.
Kevin
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I have ths problem also. The 4-dr calipers have a piston that is 20% larger than the 2-dr, therfore it needs more fluid and the pedal travel is longer. I also have the 4-dr rear drums, the slave cylinders also require about 20% more fluid and hence pedal travel is very poor. The 4-dr master cylinder is 20% bigger so that should solve your problem. I have looked into this for mine but I originally had Lucas brakes and the m/c is not compatible, I can't swap the servo either because the Japanese servo is bigger and would foul the battery.
Rear shoes should adjust up automatically so that shouldn't be an issue.
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Put your old front 2door rotors and calipers on the rear with TT's adapter.
Doesn't that delete the e-brake?
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Put your old front 2door rotors and calipers on the rear with TT's adapter.
Kevin
I bought my rotors and calipers new, thus they required a core for each. NO Biggie. I got everything, well almost everything to work great. Here's what I did:
1. Remove the stock master cylinder, 7/8ths bore".
2. Remove all the RWAL related crap and plumbing.
3. Install 4 door master cylinder, 15/16th" bore.
4. Connect brake lines to master cylinder, 2 front brake lines to 2 front ports, 1 rear to rear port.
5. Bleed and test.
My brakes have NEVER worked better. The pedal now engages near the top of it's travel, and full braking is only an inch or two down on the pedal. The feel is much firmer and effort seems about the same. It was raining quite hard out when I tested them, and I can still brake quite hard before locking up on the wet pavement. Dry pavement testing will have to wait till tommorow. I had my wife apply the brakes while on the jackstands, and the rears engage just fine, so do the fronts.
The only issue I now have is the " brake" light on the dash is now on permanently. This is probably due to disconnecting the two sensor plugs on the RWAL unit. I'm trying to figure out a way to jumper them to get the light to go off, but if I can't figure that out ( HINT HINT, I can use some electrical genius type help) there's always just pulling the dash and removing the bulb.
I've inclued some photo's of the project. First photo is of all the crap I removed. Remember, My RWAL has not been used since I removed the tone ring from the rear diff to install my ARB, more than 3 years ago.
The second photo is of the two plugs left in the engine compartment after removing everything.
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Sounds good. Do you have a factory service manual? I do if you need it. BTW I sent an email.
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Yes, I do have the FSM for my year. I do however have limited ability in schematic reading. When It comes to electrical, I'm still a novice. Emailed you back.
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I bang my head against the wall on this with guys all the time who say, "I don't need better breaks, I can still lock mine up". That's not a good test of "good enough" breaks. Locking them up = less traction. It's the amount of feel / control you have before they lock up that matters.
Glad to hear this worked out for you. When I go up to 35/37" tires on my 4-door, I'll likely go with the Subi MC.
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A common saying in custom bike building: "If your gonna make it go, you better make it stop." I could never understand guys who go to all the trouble to make big horsepower, and keep their puny stock brakes. Take a look at my Harley, I gave it good power, and I upgraded the brakes to duel Performance Machine differential bore 6 piston calipers and ductile iron rotors. Stock Harley brakes used to suck, better off doing the "Flintstones" stop.
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??? OK, after dry road testing I have some issues. My rear brakes are dragging, and the pedal is at the top of it's travel with hardley any movement at all. It only took about a half hour of driving to get the rears dragging so hard I had to stop and let them cool off, just to make it home. According to the FSM, the proporting valve is part of the RWAL syestm. It is a seperate piece, the brass looking asssembly attached to the RWAL pump and valves. I need to try and figure out a way to put it back into the system without having to go back to my old master cylinder. Problem is, the 4 door MC is physically bigger, and won't fit in the bracket for the RWAL plumbing. It may not be this at all, I just don't know at this point. I'm going to try and bleed out some pressure in the rear wheel cylinders first, just so I can get the wheels free. Back to the drawing board.
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??? OK, I'm wrong again. After letting it cool a bit and putting it up on the jackstands, it's the FRONT brakes that are dragging and heating up. The rears seem fine. So anyone have any ideas about what could be the problem? I'm getting ready to put all the stock stuff back in, since the proportioning valve is my only guess at this point. Without it I think it's just not going to work.
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A little cross-linking for future ref / searches: http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25837.0 (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=25837.0)
Following your problem, as I'm going to be doing something similar down the road. Good luck.
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Seem to have it working correctly , for now. I must have had the front two lines reversed. I switched them, and went for another test drive, so far so good. No brake issues at this point. The brake pedal now feels more realistic though. Meaning I do have to use some more pedal travel, nothing like with the stock MC, but certainly more than I did before I reversed the lines. Now the pedal travel is about 2 " before hard braking begins. I'll take it for another , longer ride after rush Hr. traffic dies down a bit.
Eric, do you want to combine these two threads just to eliminate confusion?