ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: khan_sultan on October 10, 2009, 12:34:17 AM
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Hi Friends,
I have a ~6" SPoA Lift and with that mod, the articulation of the Gypsy (Samurai SJ413) should increase BUT for me this is currently limited by the stock shocks.
I need "long travel" shocks that I can fit in the Gypsy.
Need suggestions on which shocks could give ~8-10" of travel and could be fitted in the Gypsy and i need COST EFFECTIVE suggestions.
The 8-10" of travel is derived in the following manner:
Stock travel ~3 inches (maybe. not sure)
Travel possible due to SPoA lift: ~5 -7 inches
I am based out of India and we don't get long travel shocks here so have to buy from US and get them shipped over.
If you could help me with suggestions/online shops that sell these, then it would help a LOT.
Cheers,
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Hey khan_sultan, nice to see you still modifying the Spider. :)
I use shocks off of a 1993 Ford F-250 Full Size on the front end with a set of Ford Shock Tower. The bottom fit right onto the stock spring mounts using the stock bushings, for the top we cut down the Ford Shock Tower to fit inside the wheel well and give me the extra droop I see with the folding front shackle. One item is that I left my shock mount on the top of the axle, a lot of people switch to the bottom so they can run a longer shock.
You can see a pretty good shot of it at http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/Reiter06162007#5080455461887061154 if you zoom in on the picture.
With the stock pulled off how much travel do you get when you flex out your suspension? You might be able to just re-purpose a shock from a larger vehicle.
One item of note is that on the above picture the brake lines were pretty stretched. I ended up putting on brake lines from the front end of a Suzuki Sidekick at a later point.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Drone637/MiscSuzukiPhotos#5114716882331947986
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Hey Drone637, thanks for the pointer. REALLY helps and gives me a direction to look at. I will take these inputs into account when I put in these shocks.
See the picture attached: The stock shocks are not giving the desired articulation..
Now for some specific questions:
Is it possible for you to look at these URL's and let me know if these shocks would suffice?
http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/product.cfm/id/19747/name/911055-Monroe-Reflex-Ford-F-Series-Truck
Or which one's from these would you suggest?
http://www.shockwarehouse.com/index.cfm?mode=results&selected_model=4003&selected_year=1993
I don't mind spending upto ~ $200 for a set of 4 shocks.
Also, while looking for the Ford F-250 shocks, should I choose shocks for Ford w/o lift or with lift? In most places they mention different part# for lifted and non-lifted ford pickup.
Is my assumption correct that for a 6" lifted Suzukli, a shock from the STOCK (no lift) F-250 truck would do?
So I have to choose the 'no lift' option while choosing the Ford shocks?
PS: For the rear, I have to choose the corresponding Ford one. right??
Cheers,
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I'm not sure on the rear, as I use the stock length shocks with a re-located lower mount. It limits my suspension travel a bit in the rear but it means I don't have to bother with limiting straps for the rear coils. A club member is running a longer set of Rancho shocks in the rear, I'll ask him what length shocks he is running.
On the front I use the F-250 shocks. One reason for this is I had a pair sitting there when I did the RUF conversion and needed new shocks. Stock F-250 shocks have a 24 in. extended length, 14-7/8 in. collapsed length, which is normally plenty for the front end.
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I'm not sure on the rear, as I use the stock length shocks with a re-located lower mount.
You mean, stock Samurai shocks. Right?
On the front I use the F-250 shocks. One reason for this is I had a pair sitting there when I did the RUF conversion and needed new shocks. Stock F-250 shocks have a 24 in. extended length, 14-7/8 in. collapsed length, which is normally plenty for the front end.
Great. that helps a lot. So I will buy the stock F-250 shocks ONLY for the front.
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You mean, stock Samurai shocks. Right?
Yes, a set of stock length Samurai shocks on the rear. You can see the new mounting position if you zoom in here (http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/4Link#5318815454496319346) on the rear axle. To get as much travel as possible you would want to put your shock mount closer to the bottom of the axle, but try to keep the angle of the shock close to stock. If you put to much of an angle on it you may introduce body roll. I'll see if I can get a picture of some mounts for you.
Remove your shocks, find a new lower mount position you think will work and flex out the suspension. Measure it at the high and low point and let us know the dimensions. Then we should be able to find a shock that will fit.
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I have zeroed down on the bilstien shocks. I will be taking the 25.93 extended and 15.91 compressed length ones, giving a ~10" travel
Here is the URL:
http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/bilstein_5125.cfm
I need help and inputs on which valving to choose from: 170/60 OR 255/70?
For a light weight suzuki (~900 Kgs/2000 lbs) which valving spec would be appropriate? My requirements are
1) GREAT articulation
2) NOT a hard bumpy ride
Cheers,
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I was looking around for this and found the following information on shock valving that is a pretty good read.
http://www.eshocks.com/bil_ORgd.asp?Manf=All#Ratings
Basically the higher the number the stiffer the shock. Looking at the chart they recommend a 255/70 for our style of rigs. The lighter 170/60 they recommend for dual shock configurations.
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Have ordered the Bilstein 5125 series shocks that have a 10" travel.
Will get them fitted and update you all on their performance
http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/product.cfm?id=15025
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Friends,
I got the bilstien shocks fitted and here are the pictures. The ride quality & articulation is much much improved now.
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Quality work as always Kahn! How is the extra articulation on the trail? I still love those springs...
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How is the extra articulation on the trail? I still love those springs...
The articulation is great but the front "composite fiber leaf" are not holding properly. I have already broken 2 sets. Maybe these "composite" springs are not SPoA friendly in the front :-). They are 100% fine in the rear though.
Right now I have gone back to the stock leaf springs and even with an extra leaf also the camber/height has dropped drastically :-(
Am thinking of going in for OME Dakkar Leaf Springs for the front. Any suggestions for the front leafs for SPoA?
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For a SPOA build the Bronze Eye 2" lift springs are supposed to work better then the OME Dakar springs. The OME apparently are a bit to soft to hold up to SPOA configurations.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/samsuspparts.htm (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/samsuspparts.htm)
Are you running stock front springs or rear springs up front? Which extra leaf did you add in? Another option would be to look at some rear springs from a CJ, they are the same width just a bit longer.
I would also look at re-arching your current springs. I used a pipe bender and a large hammer to re-arch my front springs a while back when they started to loose a bit of lift.
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It will cost me some $800 for shipping them to my place from US. So at a total of $1000, it is not worth it :-(
I am running stock front leafs + an additional leaf from a stock front leaf (that is kind of 3/4th in length).
I will not be able to get rear CJ's leafs in India. Do you suggest that I go for the rear stock springs in the front in SPoA configuration?
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That is what I am running, and you probably have a set laying around. They are 3" longer then the stock fronts so they give you a softer ride and should have a little more lift.
I am using the same extra leaf you are with no overload spring on the bottom and run with a slight positive curve to the spring. If you use the stock rear mounting position the front axles will slide forward 1.5", just perfect for adding a 1.5" spacer to your drive-shaft to compensate. For my lift I built a folding front shackle system and kept the stock shackle length, you could just as easily just put a new shackle mount a bit further out on the frame.
When my front spring started to sag on the drivers side I used a pipe bender to do a simple re-arch with the help of BRD HNTR. We put the spring in the bender, applied a bit of pressure, then hit it with a large hammer up and down the length to help it keep the bend. Back off the bender, move the spring over more, and repeat to ensure a slight increase in the curve through the length of the spring. A professional shop should easily add 2" to your stock springs without issue.
I was hoping with all of those Willy's I see running around there might be some old Jeep CJ's as well...
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Thanks. that helps and I will try and experiment with this option. I already have a .75" spacer on my front drive shaft, so will remove that and get a 2" spacer made.
I have also shared the picture of the Low Range 2" lift SPoA leaf set and asked few people if that can be fabricated here.
..... For my lift I built a folding front shackle system and kept the stock shackle length, you could just as easily just put a new shackle mount a bit further out on the frame.
Can you share the drawings/pictures of this? That will help me to fabricate this.
I was hoping with all of those Willy's I see running around there might be some old Jeep CJ's as well...
Yeah, but finding parts for them is a pain. Let me see, but the rear leaf set of a CJ has some 8-9 leafs.. So how many from that would need to be taken?
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You would probably only need 4 or 5 leafs, if that.
For my folding shackle we made it pretty simple. Basically it is just a couple pieces of 1/4" straight stock designed to slide a mounting point forward the 3" needed for the longer spring. Below is a quick drawing of the top half, the second lower half is just a heavy duty shackle.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WIV2vVCibx0/S3TrgGNY5BI/AAAAAAAACmw/FaDjnLPpvsc/folding_example.JPG)
You will need a way of keeping the shackles from being able to fold over backwards as well. On the passenger side I have a plate that comes across and doesn't allow it to flip over. It works ok but the drivers side one is better. Two braces, one on top of the upper half and one on top of the shackle that will bump into each other just before the shackle folds backwards. You can see both if you zoom in on the following link:
http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/ReiterTrailsMay309#5331820303604244882 (http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/ReiterTrailsMay309#5331820303604244882)
Another item is to make sure that there is something for the fold to sit on. I extended the frame 3" to fit the bumper and the winch, the upper shackle sits right underneath the new section of frame. The system works pretty well, but if there is any vibration in the front end the shackles allow it to really get working. I also had to hack up the fender when I switched to the 33" tires. For a road going rig like yours I would just look at re-locating the front shackle mount forewords 3 inches. Then again, it's pretty wicked when it opens up. :D
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That seems reasonably simple :). Might just go with this approach. So, to again confirm, NO changes were done to the rear mounting of the front leaf?
This is what I plan to do. Please check if I am on correct path:
1. Use STOCK rear leafs. Remove the over load leaf & add 1 or 2 front leafs to the bottom of the pack.
2. Use the rear mount AS IS.
3. This will move the axle by 1.5" in front. For that use a spacer for front drive shaft. (No changes required ANY WHERE else)
4. Use the folding shackle as you have outlined.
Is that all?
This method i like as this allows you to go back to stock also. No alteration that can't be reversed :-)
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That is it exactly, and the fact that you can go right back to stock if it doesn't work out is the reason why we did it that way. Make sure you have a place for the top of the folding shackle to sit on, my base was an SJ-410 so the springs sit directly underneath the frame where yours are slightly outside the frame.
Sometimes I do get a bit of chatter when running down rough roads as it is metal on metal, putting a block of rubber or polyurethaan for it to sit on would probably fix that. I'm not sure if sliding the axle forward would introduce any bump steer with your Z-bar steering setup but you should be ok. I'm running half of a high steer setup on my rig and didn't have to change anything with the steering.
The setup we built works great, but you can expand on the design if you want by adding bushing to the pivot link if you wanted. It's all up to how far you want to run with the idea. I can try to get some extra pictures on-line if you want.
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.....Make sure you have a place for the top of the folding shackle to sit on, my base was an SJ-410 so the springs sit directly underneath the frame where yours are slightly outside the frame.
....I can try to get some extra pictures on-line if you want.
Yeah, some more pictures will help. I have decided to go this route and will get this done in next week or so.