ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: trackinstile on July 17, 2004, 05:14:53 PM
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Hi guys, I got a 2000 2.0 with a stick. If my truck has been sitting for 4 hours to overnight when I go to start it up cold it makes a loud groan or grind from under the hood when I fire it up. It only lasts a second, then it's fine. It doesn't sound like a lifter noise, someone said something about cam bearings???? Any help or suggestions would be great. It rarely did it when I got it last year, now it seems to happen all the time. Thanks for the help. ;D Dave
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The teeth on the starter gear or flywheel maybe? ???
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loose starter bearings ??
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he could park it heading down hill for four or five hours and bump start it, that would check the starter ;D
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Nope, I'm prettty sure it's not the starter, it happens after I let off the key, if it's already warm, it doesn't do it, it just seems like there's no oil in the top of the head (wel, ok, there isn't really any oil in the top of the head but you know what I mean.) But PLEASE, keep the suggestions coming. .......... Now that I thik of it, I'll listen real good to the starter in the morning. Thanks, and again, any any thoughts or if anyone elses does this, please let me know. Tanks, Dave ;D
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he could park it heading down hill for four or five hours and bump start it, that would check the starter ;D
I second that idea. Maybe the starter gear isn't disengaging right away.
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I live on a hill so that won't be hard to do. But I really think it's in the valve train. ??? ??? I've never owned a dohc 16 valve motor and I know that they have a tendenccy to get a little noisy. :-/ Is there anything in the cams or gears that this could normally do this noise??? Keep the suggestions coming, I'll try bump starting it tomoro, it's raining out today here in Jersey pretty hard (as it's been all week :-X) Thanks guys, again any input would be appreciated here. TIA Dave ;D
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I work for a rental car company, and our brand new Chevy Ventures make a weird grinding noise, I too, think it is starter related.
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Ok, I finally had a chance to push start it today. Unfortunately, it's not the starter, it does it anyways. It's onlly for a second, and really sounds like it's coming from the top of the motor. The factory recomends, 5-30 oil, so tha's what I use. Is there any other thoughts out there as to what it could be? It only does it when it's cold. Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks again for all the replys too. ;D
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Teach your cat to stop sleeping under the hood when your zuk is sitting. If that doesn't work, check your clutch fan.
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How many miles? So, you have the DOHC huh? Could be a timing chain tensioner problem :eek:
Definitely sounds like a lack of oil on top problem.
Or...could it be the bifurcated muffler bearing transmogrifier seal????
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Or...could it be the bifurcated muffler bearing transmogrifier seal????
YEA THIS WAS MY PROBLEM ONCE BEFORE ;)
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Pull the fan belt and try it. If the noise persists, I'd suspect (as in the other post) the idler pulley on the timing belt. (Mine had broken loose and the timing belt was slapping the housing.) A noise inside the timing belt cover radiates through much of the engine. My mechanic thought it was in the valve train... noise went away w/ a tight timing belt. <g>
If the noise goes away, it would be the water pump, alternator, or fan. (My fan belt squeals every morning, now. I replaced the water pump, so it's probably my alternator bearings getting "stiff".)
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Teach your cat to stop sleeping under the hood when your zuk is sitting.  If that doesn't work, check your clutch fan.
Come to think of it, I havn't seen old Lucky in a few ::)
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How many miles?  So, you have the DOHC huh?  Could be a timing chain tensioner problem :eek:
Definitely sounds like a lack of oil on top problem.
Or...could it be the bifurcated muffler bearing transmogrifier seal????
Man, I was afriad of that, it sounds real expensive. :o It only has 49,000 miles on it. I didn't even think of the fan, but I would think it would do it every time, as far as a tensioner goes, if it was gone it would be a constant noise I think. Not just cold after sitting for 8 hours. It's been doing it more regularly than before, don't know if it's because I park it on a hill backwards, I used to park it nose down, now nose up, maybey the front of the head is starving for oil. It's not a steep hill, never had a problem like this before with any of my other cars or trucks. ??? IF it's an oil starvation problem, there is nothing much I can do, it runs down to the pan, gotta pump back up. Oh, and it's always full, I checked that too. Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate the replys and the ideas, I should look at the fan, thats a good idea. Again, thanks. ;D
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IF it's an oil starvation problem
Could you check this by pouring some oil in right before startup?
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Well, it's not that kind of starvation,
but a lack of oil where it needs to be
under pressure.
Did you try a Napa Gold or WIX oil
filter, and are you using a Fram POS
filter ???
Fram is the biggest POS oil filter, buy
a Wix or a Napa Gold filter, and see
if your noise goes away
Wild
PS. I just said buy, but you got to
install it too ;)
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PS. I just said buy, but you got to
install it too  ;)
Yeah, LOL I kinda guessed you meant that. ::)
I've always used Purolater oil filters, and never had it this bad until now. I just parked it down hill onthe drive way instead of up hill, I'll see if it makes a diffrence.
Oh btw, I've never used a Fram on this, after all the things I've sen online and what not, I'm surprised their still in bussness. I thought someone had mentioned a bad cam bearing, what do you think ??? Dave
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I had a car that had a similar problem and it turned out to be a bad engine mount. When the engine first started it shook enough to make the fan hit the shroud.
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I wouldn't think cam bearings at 49K miles,
I could see a bad/faulty timing chain tensioner.
I have a 98' Cavalier that makes timing chain
tensioner noise on startup, it sounds like a Diesel
so it's not just a little noise, but as soon as pressure
comes up, the tensioner takes up the slack and all
goes quiet.
Wild
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Well, the only thing is, is that it only does it cold and only once, in other words, if I fire it up and it makes the noise (yeah, does sound like a diesel) if I shut it down imediately, and then start it again it's quiet. It's only on the initial start up and after it's been sitting. Do you think the timing chain tensioner would do it every time no matter what?? Do you think it's bad, or just one of those things that are annoying that I can live with? ???
Dave ;D
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The Cavalier needs to sit for a while
before it does it again, does your engine
have a chain too, or a rubber belt ???
I think if it is the tensioner, you can live
with it, it doesn't take much slack to get
noisy, I had to replace the water pump, which
has a sprocket that is driven off of the chain,
so I had to remove the whole front of the engine
to get the tensioner out, it was never noisy before
this, so I know it's somthing I did, but it took 8
hours to replace the pump so F that I'm letting it
make noise.
The tensioner said on it see service manual for
instructions on re-setting it, but I didn't have one
so I just stuck it back together, I don't know how
you would have to re-set this, but there must be
something to it.
Is your Trucklet still under warantee ??? Might be
able to get the dealer to replace the tensioner and
stop the noise.
Good Luck
Wild
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Thanks Wild ;D The warrenty is over, kinda strange, Chevy, Suzuki, same truck diffrent warrenty. It does have chain drive. (Which I thought, great no more timing belt worries ;D Oh well.) If it isn't serious I'm not going to worry about it. It just didn't do it all the time, now it's every day pretty much. Can't figure it out. But once underway it's fine. These Zuke motors are pretty much bullit proof. I thought about a thicker oil (still using 5-30) But they strongly recomend not using anything heavier, due to the tighter tollerances and what not so for now I'll just live with it. Thanks!! ;D And if any other thoughts, just let me know.
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In my old drag racing days we had a can with a spring loaded diaphram in it that would tee into the oil sending unit with a valve under it, rev the engine up close the valve, next time you go to start it open the valve and hit the key and just keep repeating the process. almost zero engine wear, you could use a solenoid instead of the valve. just a thought, some body prob. still sells them!
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I remember a freind of my Dads bought a brand new 87 Chevy crew cab 4X4 with a 454 fuelie. First year for the fuelie, and he had a switch rigged up so that after oil changes he could cut out the ignition and just slowly crank it over with the starter motor to slowly get the oil up. I just wish I knew what this was, I'm not in the mood to go tearing anything apart. ::)
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He probably cut voltage to the coil. (That was a popular anti-theft device years ago... hide a switch under the dash.)
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Hey I got to thinking, I know that Suzuki recomends using nothing thicker than 5-30 oil, but do you think I should try a little thicker oil like 10-30? I know that these newer motors have tight clearances and thats why they call for a thinner oil, have any of you with a 99 or up 2.0 used a thicker oil like 10-30? MAybey I shouldn't go for it, I also thought of using Lucas oil aditive, it works good, keeps oil coating on everything, but Suzuki STRONGLY advises against using ANY kind of additives. Any thoughts????? And again, thanks for looking in and replying, I appreciate the ideas. ;D
Dave
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Bobzooki said he used heavier oil
and ended up with a stretched timing
chain, which was a PITA to change.
I don't think it's the tight tollerences
that require 5-30 oil, but it's a milage
thing, heavier oils create more oil pump
drag which reduces you milage, the side
affect in the Zook motor could be timing
chain wear/stretch
I don't think you should change oil weight,
I think you should use a good quality
4 cylinder recommended oil
Wild
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Well, I like to use Castrol, we've had it in our cars for I'd have to say 15 years or so, we had a Ford Festiva that ran forever with it, and all our 4 cyl cars and truck too for that matter. So, I don't think it's that. I definitely don't want to go streatching any timing chains. What do you think of using Lucas oil additive??? ???
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I like it, but I don't think that's
your solution, this might be a
normal cold start noise, if you
are worried about metal to metal
contact, then you could try a little,
but it will thicken the oil just like
using a heavier weight of motor oil,
so use with caution. I don't think
short term use will cause a chain
to stretch, so you could try it and
see, then change the oil the next day
if it doesn't help.
Wild
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That's what I was thinking of trying, but even still, it's a bandade if there really is a problem. It must just be a wear thing, it started slowly and progressivly got more and more, now it's pretty much every start up, but once it's running it's quiet as a church mouse, I'm thinking more and more that it's ok, probably just an age thing, even though it's only 4 years old. ;D Thanks for the input Wild. ;D Dave
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I don't think it's the tight tollerences
that require 5-30 oil
Wild
FWIW, I don't know if it's true or not, but that's exactly the reason I've heard from advertisements, shows, and shops, that the 5w-30, or any other recommended weight, needs to be used because of the tolerances, especailly the bearing tolerances.
I wish I had something more useful to offer this thread.
As far as additives go, I agree that most are just going to increase viscosity. But, what about the super detergents? I've used MotorFlush for several cars I bought used that had no obvious problems. I don't know if it helped anything, but as far as I can tell it didn't hurt. I figured without really knowing the previous owner's oil change schedule, it wouldn't hurt to try to get the oil passages as clean as possible. Maybe it'd help oil flow in your engine? Just another thought.
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how long has it been since u changed the oil?? id change the oil and switch to a different brand..see if u still get the same problem if u do maybe something go into the oil and pluged the system???
anywho i hope u get it fixed
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This is a funny area of science, this is
what I know off the top of my head, no
internet reasearch or study to backup
the statements.
1. Engine bearing tollerances are 1-2
thousands of an inch, 1.5 is about right,
and this has not changed much, as far as
I know in recent years.
2. Oil has a "measurment" and a micrometer
can measure this thickness, it's in the range
of .75-1 thousands of an inch, as far as I
know, this measurment is the same for 5-30
or straight 40 weight oil. The weight of the
oil determins how thin "vescosity" when hot,
like the difference in pumping gear oil into a
diff and pumping motor oil into an engine, yes
I know they are not hot, yet, but the effort required
is substantially greater to pump gear oil.
Hot or cold a thicker oil will take more power to pump.
3. Oil needs room to flow, and a tight tollerence
reduces the oils flow rate, less oil means heat, most
people don't realize that oil plays a major roll in
cooling, as well as lubricating, cleaning, protecting
from rust, corrosion of acids, carbon suspension (black
oil is full of carbon) and wear reduction, motor oil is
the most reasearched fluid on planet Earth, bar none.
In a press conference years ago, some VW engineers
were asked about the unusually high oil temps in their
engines, and after a few moments to convert the Degrees
F* to Degrees C* their reply was that the oil temp was fine,
and if it was lower they would not get the fuel mileage that
they were supposed to get, so now go out and look at the
bottle of 5-30 and read the front, I think it will say Fuel Saving
or some other similar statement like Saves Gas ..........
I welcome anyone to reasearch and throughly dive
into this subject, we might even all learn somthing
and come away with a greater knowedge on the matter.
BTW I use 5-30 in winter, 10-40 in the warm months,
and 20-50 in the hot summer, and I do this for the flow
and cranking speed that I want to have in these types
of weather temps
Wild
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When I worked for the Kendall Oil distributor for Oregon, it was explained to me as...
The low viscosity rating (i.e. 5 in 5-30) is the cold temp rating. The high rating (30) would be the hot rating... so 5-30 would have a viscosity similar to "unimproved" oil of 5 at cold temps, but only thin out as much as a 30 rating at higher temps.
The oil additives are usually to "bump" the viscosity up. The "cleaners" can actually cause some engines problems. Assuming you need to clean the engine, it can loosen pieces of hardened carbon, which may block oil passages, cause the bypass valve to stick, or can sometimes cause oil seals to start leaking. Instead, I have had some success by changing oil at 500-1000 miles. It's safer than using additives. (I also try to always stick with the same brand of oil as used by the former owner.)
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Man O- Man did I open up a conversation here ;D First off to answer the question, I just changed it about 700 miles ago. I usually do it no more than 3,000 miles, sometimes less if I know its coming up and it's a nice weekend. It didn't do it a year ago, but then little by little it started and now it does it every cold start. I'm thinking it's a cold start issue. I've been using Castrol for years from little motors like a 1.3 in a Ford Festiva to a Olds big block in a Buick Electra I had years ago, to a strait 6 in a Chevy pickup that's still in the family after 12 years and still running strong. I don't think its the Castrol, I don't think they've changed the detergents, but who knows. I use Purolater filters, problems not there. I'm going to see how it goes when it gets colder out, if it goes away it's wear and tear and the thickness of the oil.
And Wild, dude, you know your dino juice ;D ;D ;D
I learned a lot from that though, I'm thinking of going to 10-40, although, next time I change the oil it'll be in Sept. or Oct. and going into winter. We'll figure it out. ;DDave