ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: fischenr on November 12, 2009, 09:43:00 AM
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Hey i just joined this sight in hopes of finding some other folks that have put turbos on some zuki/trackers too. I have a Geo Tracker with a Holset turbocharger off a 5.9 cummins (rather large, LOTS of lag), no intercooler, with alcohol injection, i HAVE hit 25psi of boost, but don't like to (detonates BC lack of fuel), 10 to 15 is hit pretty regularly climbing a big hill or sunk in the mud and my alcohol injection keeps it running strong in that range. The problem is the fuel. its hard to regulate accurately beyond about 12psi with my single stage of alcohol injection via windshield washer pump. I'm wanting accurate regulation up to 25 or 30 psi because i have plans to ring the block and the possibility of a second staged charger BC i have the turbos laying around.
I would do away with stock injection all together in favor of a completely self regulated system (new MAF sensor and a single throttle body injector) designed for something much larger. My thoughts was a standalone fuel injection convertion kit from Holley for a small block V-8 or something. It would be ideal But very pricey. any thoughts on how i could simply add another injector without a new computer or something simple?
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Two cheap ways that I've "seen" used to dump more fuel in:
- Higher pressure fuel regulator - like an aftermarket rising rate regulator. This will only increase fuel flow marginally.
- extra injector(s) connected to a Hobbs switch (which switches on at a particular psi). So when the manifold reaches X psi the
Hobbs switch flips and the extra injector(s) dump fuel in.
These, of course, are not the best ways to get more fuel, but are definitely cheaper ways.
I think one of the best would be a custom intake manifold for multi port FI running a stand alone FI system like Megasquirt.
Do you have the alcohol injection running through a specific jet, or injector?
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actually my original fuel pump bit the dust so i put an inline fuel pump on it that i robber off an f350 powerstroke on it, which is higher pressure i think. And the "injector" i have now is my windsheild washer tank with alcohol in it. i ran a single hose right from the tank to the intake. i watch my "boost gauge" (low pressure tire gauge tapped into the manifold) and at about 7 psi i hit it the windsheild washer fluid lever. Works fine for moderate pressure. sometimes it tends to fall on its face wile climbing a hill cause i forget to hit the lever :)
hobbs switches easy to find? i think another windsheild washer pump with alcohol might do the trick.
I'll look into megasquirt too. id rather keep all mods under $500 though.
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could you i imagine how trick a multi point mega squirt would be? god, perfect amount of fuel and good too ridiculous ammounts of horsepower :o twin charger, 40psi, ringed heads, alcohol multi point injection 8). if you put enough boost to it you dont need any more mods. high flow cam and intake would be redundant at that kind of boost pressure. have to get a logging chain to keep the head strapped on. pipe dreams...
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have to get a logging chain to keep the head strapped on. pipe dreams...
Don't worry about the head it will be fine, its the rods that will be flying through the air :o
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If you are running stock pistons, I would stay away from boost pressures
over 6 PSI, and with the fuel system you have on there now, you will melt
down a piston long before the rods go south
Wild
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yea i usually only hit 10 on a decent climb. the alcohol injection, although not very precicely regulated, seems to keep it going alright. So i figure, Eh alcohol burns pretty cool so itl'll be alright lol. i gotta show off a bit on the road though, ya know? that boost gauge just keeps climbing higher the longer you hammer down lol 25psi is hit in 3rd gear |removethispart|@ 5k rpm when you build it from 2k going down the road. thats about the only chance you have of building boost long enough to hit that kind of pressure
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Don't forget to post photo's of your grenaded motor next week!
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Don't forget to post photo's of your grenaded motor next week!
I second that! :o Amazed the bottom end lasted this long!
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Correct me if im wrong, but arent the pistons likely to be fordged in stock form because of the high rev range (7k red line)? theyre obviously tough engines just judging on what iv put mine through ;D
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Pretty sure the pistons are not forged, and I've done quite a bit of research on turbocharging these engines. Your also likely to have exhaust valve issues from the tremendous heat gererated. Do you use a pyrometer? I'm curious to know what kind of egt's you get at those boost pressures. Also, how about some photos of your setup?
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yea no clue on the egt. the charger is so big with so much lag it doesnt run with 12psi+ for more than ten seconds |removethispart||removethispart||removethispart|@ very most. might be the only thing thats saving it lol doesnt even run with 7psi+ unless you have it atleast half throttle. heres a sideways pic of the early set up without the air filter and alc. injection.
I machined a plate to flip the exhause manifold upside down; cut the intake manifold at a round section and used about 6 heavy duty hose clamps to attach the assorted lengths of radiator hose i needed to bridge the gap between the output of the charger and the intake of the engine. Pressurized Oil line was tapped into the oil pressure sensor and return was ran into the breather of the valve cover
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heres one of a twin charger set up i made for shits and giggles. the hoses arent attached to the outter charger as you can see. didnt work well either. when i managed to run the hoses it didnt make any more power than the single charger i have mounted up in this pic(you can also see my injection hose in the intake and the red hose for the pressure gauge). That charger is a banks with a 100 exhaust housing and it maxed out at 5 psi. the yellow is a holset with a 130 exhaust housing (i have no clue y it works so well) which iv had build 25psi
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Don't have to worry about packaging issues without a hood! I guess it lets the hot air under there out well too. How about some more detailed pics of your manifold set up?
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exhaust or intake manifold? it'll be thanksgiving before i can take more pics, im away from home at college right now.
Haha i was talking to someone who used to race 4x4s back in the day, like "gravelrama" style uphill drags and stuff. I told them about my tracker and the stuff iv done to it. He chuckles and says, whats the point of doing that to that little engine just to trail ride?
" I dont really know. Cause i can i guess."
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Here is a buildup of what I did
http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods (http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods)
Wild
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wicked header fab. work! mine dont look so slick, after i flipped the stock manifold over, it of course collects from 4 to 2, the non-cast 2 to 1 pipe section directly after that runs to the cat. converter was trimmed up to a length of about 3 inches; i made a plate to mount the charger to on the mill out of 4inx4inx1/4in plate, cut 2 holes in it the size of the 2 pipes on the manifold and welded it directly to it. I'll get a pic of it before too long cause its prolly hard to visualize.
Advantages were: little frustration involved, straight forward easy build, easy acess to try many different turbos, intake is outta the mud and water, everyone you pass gives you a 'wtf is that?' look
Dissadvanges: no hood, doesnt look as slick, turbo sticks out in the open
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Haha i was talking to someone who used to race 4x4s back in the day, like "gravelrama" style uphill drags and stuff. I told them about my tracker and the stuff iv done to it. He chuckles and says, whats the point of doing that to that little engine just to trail ride?
" I dont really know. Cause i can i guess."
That's more than enough reason in my book. And it beats the hell out of stamp collecting.
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Haha i was talking to someone who used to race 4x4s back in the day, like "gravelrama" style uphill drags and stuff. I told them about my tracker and the stuff iv done to it. He chuckles and says, whats the point of doing that to that little engine just to trail ride?
" I dont really know. Cause i can i guess."
That's more than enough reason in my book. And it beats the hell out of stamp collecting.
Amen to that! Might as well do some crazy stuff if i got the motivation. The worst decisions make the best stories, think i might have read that someplace on here.
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Alright so talking theories here, are there any cheaper forged bottom end components available? Arias will make custom pistons for 100 a piece, or i found cbr 1000s have the same diameter, so custom rods and tougher cbr pistons would do well (crank would need balacing im sure)
but im not gonna drop $400 for something when i dont know the weakest link. Might not even be the pistons.
Might just ring the heads, add another windsheild washer pump full of alcohol and go for it >:D >:D
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Honda pistons from SRP work, I got a low CR set, but didn't take into
account the CC of the Honda head so they ended up close to stock
CR, but I did spend about $400 on the set if I remember right, so
custom fit for the same price is good.
As far as the bottom end, Suzuki rods are beefy when compared to other
four cylinder engines, and hold an easy 200 HP
Wild
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did you ballance the crank? cause theres no way those pistons the same weight
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nope, never really thought about it, I should tho :o
Wild
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has anyone melted stock pistons? |removethispart||removethispart|@ what boost? and how much boost will your Honda pistons hold up to? i mean if its a heat thing I'm actually not too concerned bc of how cool alc burns (that's what most of my fuel will be at high boost) and how intermittently it hits high boost(plenty of time to cool down)
but of course too high of cylinder pressure is liable to punch a hole straight through it. same as getting too happy with the Nos
Wild: is wrist pin dia the same for the two pistons?
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SRP, Sportsmans Racing Pistons, I think it is, are forged, and
yes the wrist pins are the same size. I got the wrong ones, I
just ordered by the CR instead of specking out the right pistons
that would of had the right CR for the CC of the head.
CR is determined by cc of the head + cc of the piston crown dish
divided by the cylinder volume so 10cc head+ 5cc dish = 15cc
divided by 150 cylinder cc = 10:1 CR.
for a turbo motor, 8.5 is ideal for higher boost PSI, up to 15, but
fuel is a must, and accurate too.
I would run no more than 10PSI, which will give you 2x the stock HP
approx, so close to 200 HP from a 1.6L engine in a 2500 Pound rig =
tons of fun ;D
Wild
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10psi? thats a little conservative for my taste >:D im already running good in that range, i was hoping for someone to encourage me to up it!!
i'll keep hitting 12-15 and let you know if(when) it breaks
iv decided on a hobbs switch for my alc. and to ring the block so i wont blow the head gasket(already leaks)
One alc inector on a hobbs at 7 psi and another manual one on the lever for a second stage, good for 10-15 or so
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Extended boost levels over 5 PSI can melt stock cast pistons, you've been warned ;)
I have some 8 PSI pics of a melted piston, BTW I was warned too :P
Wild
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Duly noted sir. we'll see how long she lasts. i might have to put a screen in the manifold to hopefully catch some piston fragments and save my turbo when she goes :)
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I had a meltdown, thru the top of the piston and out the second ring land,
erroded the ring into the oil and trashed the oil pump, never had a chance
to shut down before damaging the #1 and 2 rod bearings and crank, was
quite the mess seeing I was in Beaver Utah, heading zukfari at EJS
Wild
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ha yea if i planned on being far from help i def would cut it down some. most places i ride are within 5 miles of the trailer. by the way iv been running this set up since the begining of April.
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I thought i read on here somewhere that with 6-8lbs of boost just going up to a Nissan injector would be adequate?
anybody heard that??
thanks
kj
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New pics. Hobbs injector set up. Its too high pressure though. rated at 2-7.5psi (normally 6-7)
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exhaust mount
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alcohol injector hoses. one maual, and one on the hobbs pressure switch
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I love this project.
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I thought i read on here somewhere that with 6-8lbs of boost just going up to a Nissan injector would be adequate?
anybody heard that??
thanks
kj
I use the larger Nissan injectors on my set up. But I wouldn't run 8 lbs of boost in a stock motor. Too much compression with the stock pistons, I think you'll run into problems. After running my turbo setup for a couple years now, I really think you can get away using the STOCK injectors. The stock ECU and Injectors seem to be able to cope with moderate boost ( 5/6 lbs) well.
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So i am a LITTLE concerned about the longevity of my motor... Id like to stop it at 15 psi. I'll post a video of my boost gauge sometime, the way it builds boost is odd. from 5-10psi fairly slow, and shoots to 17+psi in seconds after reaching ten. Anyone got a creative boost regulator set up? im thinking of robbing an internal bypass off another charger, and relocating it to my exhaust manifold and using the intake-side solenoid to activate it.
Keep in mind this is Dumpster Garage, not Monster Garage. little money to spare :)
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The problem is you are running a turbo that was designed for a much bigger engine, and it looks like it comes from a
CAT Diesel, some of the new turbos come with a waste gate, I can't tell from the pics you have here. Even if it did have an internal waste gate it would be set for 17-25 PSI, which is fine for a Diesel, not for a gas engine.
Boost pressures over 5 PSI WILL destroy your engine with stock pistons, you need forged pistons to run boost
at the levels you are running now, even with then extra fuel, the stock pistons cannot take the heat and pressure
for long, they will fail by burning thru.
As far as the boost building quickly after 10 PSI, it's the volume of the exhaust that gets to the right volume
and really starts to drive the big turbine blade and boost jumps. This turbo in a big Diesel engine would sing
at idle and would be boosting 10 PSI at 1000 RPM and easily hit peak PSI before the engine was at 2000 RPM.
Most big Diesel's are governed to less than 2100 RPM, and the power band is a fairly narrow about 1300 to 1900
and on some occasions 1200 to 2000 RPM, CATs are known to torque well at 1200 and are governed to about
1900 RPM this does vary from engine to engine and some drivers bump the RPM and fuel settings, but in general
terms this is accurate.
You really need to go wrecking yard hopping and find a turbo from a 1.6 to 1.8 or even 2.0 engine, I like the
Subaru turbo from the mid 80's boosts about 7 PSI and those engines didn't get an intercooler, tho I would
recommend one for engine life.
Wild
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Yea the charger came from a piece of heavy equipment. 5.9L cummins, same dispacement as the dodge trucks. holset with a 130 exhaust housing. Yea its prolly gonna blow eventually, but they also can blow from no boost at all.
After doing some math, it makes sense that it works:
The volume of air comming from a 5.9L diesel and a 1.6L are comprable.
5.9L of displacement X 1350 rpm (average running rpm?? which should be 20 psi under a moderate load?)= 7965 Liters of air per minute.
1.6L of displacement X 5000 rpm ( almost reved out for a tracker) = 8000 liters of air per minute
Theres other variables, like volume of fuel burnt, EGT, ect. But even conservatively its designed to (and does) work well. Tracker puts out same volume of air at 3700 rpm as 5.9 |removethispart|@ 1000 rpm.
Its overkill and a time bomb yea, but i dont mind saying that i like that. :)
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And it doesnt have an internal waste gate, but i have other chargers that do. JUst thinking about using the wastegate component on my manifold. Might be to hard to set up the plumbing, who knows. but the activating solenoid is external and ajustable to the pressure i want with shimming the spring. maybe.
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"Dumpster Garage, not Monster Garage." Man, that's gotta be the quote of the year! Wish I'd said that!
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You might be able to fix some sort of blow off valve in the intake
to limit the boost level, but the internally fitted waste gates are the
easiest kind to get and use, I don't use a BOV but with an auto trans
I never worried about lag between shifts
Wild
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"Dumpster Garage, not Monster Garage." Man, that's gotta be the quote of the year! Wish I'd said that!
I wish i could claim it as original haha I saw it on a t-shirt. Dumpster Garage Off-road Club i think. I thought if my rig was gonna be in any club in the world, it would have to be that one haha