ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: djlantis57 on June 14, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
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Okay...so I was driving around at the lake last Wednesday and came across some people who needed help. Long story short, I pulled out an old lowboy F250 and a Prerunner Tacoma with my tracker. Yes they were very impressed that such a small light car could help out even the big boys.
Pulled out the F250 in 4HI and think I burnt up what was left of my clutch (it's been feeling weak lately), then pulled out the Tacoma in 4LO. I haven't been driving it much lately since I can't hardly give it any throttle without it slipping.
What's the best clutch to buy? I do 80% daily driving and 20% off the pavement, and some occasional driving on the rocks. I need something that's gonna hold up. Price isn't really a major issue as I've sold a lot of junk and have cash on hand. I definitely want to get something that's of the best quality.
So far I've found that Centerforce makes two different clutches, one is a dual-friction clutch. Would it be to my advantage to get that one over the standard Centerforce?
Trail Tough sells a "deluxe" clutch kit for $149. Anyone satisfied with this?
http://www.trailtough.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=215&category_id=46&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53 (http://www.trailtough.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=215&category_id=46&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53)
What about the simple OEM-spec ones from auto parts suppliers?
Hope some of you can weigh in on these and give me some feedback and advice.
Thanks,
DJ
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I run a standard OEM style in both my DD, the race rig, and my SJ-410. When you wheel do you ride the clutch a lot? If not then you might be better just going with an Exedy cluth, they are supposed to be about 20% stronger then stock but not near as tight as the Centerforce.
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I just replaced mine with one i picked up at autozone. think it was about $160. got it installed yesterday and not too many issues other than some rusty bolts. the stock oem replacment should do fine. i called trail tough and lowrange and they said the stock one is all i need.
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Only been on the rocks once, and I rode the clutch A LOT because I still have stock gearing. I don't plan on going and doing it again until I get the reduction in the tcase (which I will probably do right now while the trans is out). So let's assume I'll be riding the clutch a lot less in the future.
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the reduction gears aren't hard to put in. just did mine yesterday too. just make sure you lay out the pieces that you take out. A small magnet, lock tight, rtv, and paint marker come in handy. Also, a good "tree" shaped routing bit will shave the casing fairly easy. Good luck with it. Oh, when you put it in low range the first time, you forget you had to pay $650 for those gears. definately worth the time and money!
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I would go with just a stock type one. I run regular auto parts store clutches in everything I own. Lifetime warranty and they don't cost much. And use 4wd low, when you are pulling people out. ::) :P
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use 4wd low, when you are pulling people out. ::) :P
Thanks. And, FWIW, I knew I should have used 4LO (I did use 4LO for the second truck), but I didn't know how solid the ground was yet...so I wanted to have 4LO as a last resort to pull myself out if I had gotten myself stuck in the same mud in 4HI.
I learned that day, while driving around the lake earlier, and later while pulling those two trucks out, that it would take A LOT to get one of these little trucks stuck. It seems like they're so light, that they wouldn't "sink" like a heavier truck would in the mud or sand. Whenever it feels like I'm losing traction I give it more throttle and it pulls itself out.
The best way to describe it is it feels like an overgrown, street-legal, 4-person quad with a bigger engine to boot...cause that's how it handles on the trail!
I was spinning the back end around in the sand while making a turn with little effort and throttle...kinda like I do with my quad.
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Anyone have any idea what the stock size clutch is? Or if there is a chance to "upgrade" if there is a slightly larger clutch that will fit right in? Just a thought.
I found a stock clutch (full kit) for $130 with a lifetime warranty. Sounds good to me. It's a stock type replacement, 7-7/8", but that number sounds kind of small, I don't want to get cheated with a smaller-than-stock clutch.
DJ
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Anyone have any idea what the stock size clutch is? Or if there is a chance to "upgrade" if there is a slightly larger clutch that will fit right in? Just a thought.
I found a stock clutch (full kit) for $130 with a lifetime warranty. Sounds good to me. It's a stock type replacement, 7-7/8", but that number sounds kind of small, I don't want to get cheated with a smaller-than-stock clutch.
DJ
There is only one size of clutch for a samurai....and it should be 7.5", IIRC. If you were running a trackick tranny, you could run a trackick flywheel and clutch (can't run it with a samurai tranny because the trackick flywheel is bigger diameter and won't fit inside the samurai bellhousing).
Here is the info from an old thread of mine....
190MM (7.5") used behind the 1.3
200MM (7 7/8") used with the 1.6 8V
215MM (8.5") used with the 16V engines
FYI, if you are running a trackick flywheel, you can run either the 7 7/8" or the 8.5" clutch....since the flywheels are identical between the 1.6 8Vs and the 1.6 16Vs.
As far as an "upgrade" to the samurai clutch, the only thing I know of are the centerforce clutches that some of the vendors sell.....they are over $200, IIRC.
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I was spinning the back end around in the sand while making a turn with little effort and throttle...kinda like I do with my quad.
Just be careful. They have a short wheelbase and can roll if your not paying attention. Just like your quad. :D
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I'm aware of that...I saw what happened to Project Trouble.
There is only one size of clutch for a samurai....and it should be 7.5", IIRC. If you were running a trackick tranny, you could run a trackick flywheel and clutch (can't run it with a samurai tranny because the trackick flywheel is bigger diameter and won't fit inside the samurai bellhousing).
Here is the info from an old thread of mine....
190MM (7.5") used behind the 1.3
200MM (7 7/8") used with the 1.6 8V
215MM (8.5") used with the 16V engines
FYI, if you are running a trackick flywheel, you can run either the 7 7/8" or the 8.5" clutch....since the flywheels are identical between the 1.6 8Vs and the 1.6 16Vs.
As far as an "upgrade" to the samurai clutch, the only thing I know of are the centerforce clutches that some of the vendors sell.....they are over $200, IIRC.
So are you saying a clutch from a 16v would fit my 1.6L 8v Tracker 5spd, and it's slightly larger?
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So are you saying a clutch from a 16v would fit my 1.6L 8v Tracker 5spd, and it's slightly larger?
Yes, it will work fine.
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Now I'm not too sure about that one for $130 being 7-7/8"...I'd like to get up to the 8.5" clutch that most of the other companies sell. Exedy sells both. One is 7-7/8", and the 8.5" one is listed for "CA emissions vehicles and heavy-duty"
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Now I'm not too sure about that one for $130 being 7-7/8"...I'd like to get up to the 8.5" clutch that most of the other companies sell. Exedy sells both. One is 7-7/8", and the 8.5" one is listed for "CA emissions vehicles and heavy-duty"
The 8.5 is a stock replacement for any trackick that came with a 16V engine. It has nothing to do with CA emissions or being "heavy duty" (although technically it would be a "heavier duty" clutch than the 7.9 clutch that came behind the 8Vs).
Remember, the only option (size wise) you have with a samurai (with a samurai tranny) is the 7.5" clutch. But for trackicks you can run the 8.5" clutch on any flywheel, even if it originally had a 7.9" clutch on it.
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Thanks for all the advice thus far
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But for trackicks you can run the 8.5" clutch on any flywheel, even if it originally had a 7.9" clutch on it.
Has anyone actually done this, personally? Put a 16v 8.5" clutch on an 8v trackick? I mean, I appreciate the advice, but I would hate to buy a larger one and not have it work, then I have to deal with return, exchange, etc...
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But for trackicks you can run the 8.5" clutch on any flywheel, even if it originally had a 7.9" clutch on it.
Has anyone actually done this, personally? Put a 16v 8.5" clutch on an 8v trackick? I mean, I appreciate the advice, but I would hate to buy a larger one and not have it work, then I have to deal with return, exchange, etc...
I have done the opposite.....ran a 7.9" clutch on a trackick that originally had an 8.5" clutch. The reason I did that was because the 8.5 was toast and I had an extra 7.9" around.
As I said, the flywheels are identical between an 8V and 16V 1.6 trackick....so either clutch will work on them.
Oh, and the trannys are identical, from a bellhousing and input shaft standpoint, so no issue there either.
I'm telling you, it will work. :P
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My buddy who works at the auto parts store said that they are all identical...the spline count, flywheel, etc are all identical, but he can't "officially" recommend the part since his computer doesn't "show" that it will work, so that's why I turned here to make sure.
I just got off the phone with Hawk Suzuki and they said the same thing, that they are perfectly interchangeable.
I was just looking for peace of mind, and I'm gonna get the 8.5" cause it's only $10 more to upgrade.
Thanks, again, for the help
P.S. +1 to Skyhiranger for digging up the technical specs for me. Thanks
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Updated. Got a Sachs stock-type replacement kit from local shop, the larger 8.5". Should grab better.
Got it all out today, and the old one is smoothed down almost to the rivets in a few spots.
Old clutch is marked "DK", anyone know if that could be the original clutch from years ago?
Should have it put together again tomorrow, but I'm going to take my time and have the flywheel resurfaced, and check out the rear main seal while I'm at it...I have a lot of oil leaking lately and it's making a mess of everything.
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Updated. Got a Sachs stock-type replacement kit from local shop, the larger 8.5". Should grab better.
Got it all out today, and the old one is smoothed down almost to the rivets in a few spots.
Old clutch is marked "DK", anyone know if that could be the original clutch from years ago?
Should have it put together again tomorrow, but I'm going to take my time and have the flywheel resurfaced, and check out the rear main seal while I'm at it...I have a lot of oil leaking lately and it's making a mess of everything.
Good call on having the flywheel resurfaced. I always do that anytime I put a new clutch in.
I'd go ahead and replace the rear main....you are there, and it isn't expensive to do. Saves you having to drop the tranny again later. You could also look at the distributor and the oil pan as sources for leaks....both are pretty common places for leaks.
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I'm pretty sure I have a leak at the dist. too, I've noticed that from the start since I bought it last April. I thought at first that my clutch was saturated with oil because of all the oil dripping from the dizzy on the bellhousing, and when I would drive it to the mountains it would slip at first (from not being driven much/city driving) but by the time I got it "warmed up" from an hour at freeway speeds it wouldn't slip at all.
That theory proved wrong yesterday when I finally got the trans. out; the clutch area was DRY and had NO oil residue on it. It was just burned up pretty bad lol my mistake.
Good call on having the flywheel resurfaced. I always do that anytime I put a new clutch in.
I did a quick search yesterday and found you stating that a few times to other people. Figured it was a good idea, and after removing the trans/t-case as a whole unit yesterday, I DON'T want to have to do it again because I overlooked something. So yes, rear main will be replaced too since it's accessible.
I figure, replace rear main, dist. o-ring, and check tightness in general (esp. oil pan since it looks leaky) and then drop in a quart of that oil stabilizer/stop leak and see if it's enough to get rid of my mess. I don't have a "trickle" or "drip" of oil ever, just a lot of residual in general...so whatever is leaking isn't leaking very bad, just a small leak *IMO
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If I was doing it, I would drop the oil pan completely, clean the surfaces up, put some rtv/silicone on it, and put it back on and torque the bolts down to spec. It should never leak again, if you do it right. I wouldn't run any stop leak in it, fix it the right way. DO NOT use a cork gasket on the oil pan either.
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Does Fel-Pro or anyone make a quality gasket for the oil pan (rubber/poly instead of RTV sealant)?
How would I know if my FRONT main bearing has a leak? I'd have to take apart all the timing, wouldn't I?
I'll look into it; I'm almost due up for an oil change, and I don't think I need to remove anything to get to the oil pan bolts (I took apart a Mazda B-series truck engine a few months back and you had to remove the timing cover and EVERYTHING else to remove the last few bolts in the oil pan. NOT FUN).
I'll most likely do what I can now while I have the trans out, and if it still leaks, run some stop-leak. Better than nothing, but has anyone tried something like this???
Thanks for the quick reply.
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Does Fel-Pro or anyone make a quality gasket for the oil pan (rubber/poly instead of RTV sealant)?
How would I know if my FRONT main bearing has a leak? I'd have to take apart all the timing, wouldn't I?
I'll look into it; I'm almost due up for an oil change, and I don't think I need to remove anything to get to the oil pan bolts (I took apart a Mazda B-series truck engine a few months back and you had to remove the timing cover and EVERYTHING else to remove the last few bolts in the oil pan. NOT FUN).
I'll most likely do what I can now while I have the trans out, and if it still leaks, run some stop-leak. Better than nothing, but has anyone tried something like this???
Thanks for the quick reply.
RTV is what suzuki uses to seal the pan, so why use anything else?
You would have to at least pull the timing cover off, to get to the front main area. Then, you still may not be able to determine if it is leaking, unless you pull the timing gear....then you still may not be able to tell. A lot of times the oil pan leak will seep upwards into under the timing cover, so it can be pretty hard to tell if the front main is leaking.
Most places and people will tell you that you have to remove the front axle assembly to drop the oil pan. I will tell you that you do NOT have to drop the front axle. I have removed 1.6 16V oil pans without dropping the front axle (or raising the engine). Once you get the oil pan loose, you have to spin it 180* and work it off over the oil pickup tube.
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I'll try. My front diff has been dropped a little bit by the Calmini lift so I hope that will give my +/- 1/2" or so extra room to work with. I didn't think I would have to remove the front axle, it looked last night like I had a lot of room. Hope I can do it because I don't want to remove the front axle...took a lot of work to do it last time and I wouldn't want to mess with it again.
Sounds like I don't want to consider checking the front main seal.
RTV is what suzuki uses to seal the pan, so why use anything else?
Okay I was wondering about that last night when I saw the RTV around the pan. I figured somebody else did it and didn't use a gasket. So it's probably original.
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Gray is the original stuff, other colors is somebody working on it
Wild
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Gray is the original stuff, other colors is somebody working on it
Wild
Unless they use gray too. :P
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Mine's orange :P
Got the flywheel reground tonight. It has some "heat marks" where it appears the flywheel either got too hot from the clutch, or it's a re-man'ed flywheel that was welded. Resurfacing looks good, but I'm going to use my random orbit sander and some 600grit to swirl it (they said "non-directional" pattern).
Gonna use standard black RTV, also got the rear main bearing seal tonight (it's a kit, it has a gasket for the cover too. I was told to load up that gasket with RTV in addition to the gasket when I install it.
Gonna work long shifts the next three days so I'll be back on this Monday!
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It has some "heat marks" where it appears the flywheel either got too hot from the clutch, or it's a re-man'ed flywheel that was welded. Resurfacing looks good, but I'm going to use my random orbit sander and some 600grit to swirl it (they said "non-directional" pattern).
So this is what I was talking about. Nothing is put back together still, so I wanted to take a few pictures of this. Anyone know what it is? I don't want to put this whole thing back together and have these "spots" affect the new clutch and tear into the friction surface. The flywheel was turned on a brake machine, and these spots showed up, like they're a harder metal. Someone says they think it could have been a remanufactured flywheel, and those are welds that filled up cracks. The other idea is that the clutch was too hot. But, there's similar marks on the pressure plate, too. As described above, I'm going to use 600 grit on the surface, any suggestions on this? 600 seems really fine, wouldn't I want the surface slightly rougher?
Like I said, I only want to do this once, so it best be right the first time.
Tell me what yall think of these pictures:
(and let me know if it looks BAD enough to NEED a new flywheel...)
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Looks like heat spots to me. They likely won't tear into the friction plate, they will likely become really smooth and slick, the more you use your clutch.
If you are going to sand the flywheel, I would use something rougher than 600 grit. 100 grit probably won't hurt anything. I assume you are doing that, to try to get the "rings" off the surface that the brake lathe left?
For future reference, and for anyone else reading.....if you ever have a flywheel resurfaced, try to find a place that "grinds" the flywheel. What that is is a machine that had abrasive pads on it that grinds the flywheel to resurface it. It moves in a small circular motion and therefore doesn't groove the flywheel, like a brake lathe will. It leaves a nice "swirly" surface on the flywheel and is better than having a flywheel turned on a brake lathe.
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Looks like heat spots to me. They likely won't tear into the friction plate, they will likely become really smooth and slick, the more you use your clutch.
If you are going to sand the flywheel, I would use something rougher than 600 grit. 100 grit probably won't hurt anything. I assume you are doing that, to try to get the "rings" off the surface that the brake lathe left?
So that's what I was thinking. They feel really smooth and slick compared to the rest of the metal. I figured it wouldn't "hurt" the clutch disc, but I had best check to see a second opinion.
And yes, I want to swirl the flywheel to give a non-directional surface (instead of the rings) and the 600 didn't work, in fact, all the grit came off the paper right away...either cheap paper or too aggressive a surface. Gonna use a real dual-action sander tomorrow and try 220...
For future reference, and for anyone else reading.....if you ever have a flywheel resurfaced, try to find a place that "grinds" the flywheel. What that is is a machine that had abrasive pads on it that grinds the flywheel to resurface it. It moves in a small circular motion and therefore doesn't groove the flywheel, like a brake lathe will. It leaves a nice "swirly" surface on the flywheel and is better than having a flywheel turned on a brake lathe.
I was going to search around more for this, but the employee I know did it for free, instead of the usual fee. I had read on this forum about that beforehand but didn't bother asking him about it until I brought it in. They also couldn't get the dowel pins out so that's why he could only turn it out so far. It's just big enough to accommodate the larger 8.5" clutch, about 1/4" bigger diameter on the resurfacing than the disc.
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They also couldn't get the dowel pins out so that's why he could only turn it out so far. It's just big enough to accommodate the larger 8.5" clutch, about 1/4" bigger diameter on the resurfacing than the disc.
I didn't catch that when I looked at the pics the first time. You may have issues with the whole flywheel not being turned. The reason is, the pressure plate will sit a little farther away from the flywheel surface and therefore the "gap" between the pressure plate clutch surface and the flywheel clutch surface will be larger. So what that will do is make it so the pressure plate may not be able to put as much pressure on the fiber plate as it normally would (which may cause the clutch to slip). But it may also be fine. If there will be any issues, I would guess you probably won't know about them until the fiber plate wears down (gets thinner) and then the pressure plate won't be able to press hard enough on the fiber plate to keep the clutch from slipping.
I have had to heat the flywheel with a torch before, to get the dowel pins out.
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The surfacing was turned to a large enough diameter so the disc will be pressing against all one uniform surface, there are no "steps" within the area that the clutch will grip against...if that's what you were referring to.
Or were you talking about the fact that the mounting surface for the pressure plate is technically a "step" above the friction surface...we considered that, but it's a matter of a few thousandths of an inch...I think the picture makes the "step" look bigger than it really is. It's hardly noticeable, figured a few thousandths was OK
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Or were you talking about the fact that the mounting surface for the pressure plate is technically a "step" above the friction surface...we considered that, but it's a matter of a few thousandths of an inch...I think the picture makes the "step" look bigger than it really is. It's hardly noticeable, figured a few thousandths was OK
Yep, that is what I was talking about. Like I said, you might be fine...or you might not.
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Most places and people will tell you that you have to remove the front axle assembly to drop the oil pan. I will tell you that you do NOT have to drop the front axle. I have removed 1.6 16V oil pans without dropping the front axle (or raising the engine). Once you get the oil pan loose, you have to spin it 180* and work it off over the oil pickup tube.
PLEASE, enlighten me :) I'm not having fun trying to figure this out. I can't rotate it because the header is on one side, and the clutch cable bracket is in the way on the other side...and it's an 8v engine, not 16v. I'm thinking about dropping the front end unless I get a better idea from anyone on here, or if you could help me out a little, because I can't spin it much at all...definitely not enough to make it come off the pickup tube.
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I said AW SCREW IT I took that bitch out of there and the oil pan came out so easily...I unbolted the 3 mounts for the front diff, disconnected the 3bolt flange and swung the driver's side half-shaft out of the way, and then kept the pass. half-shaft inserted and just swung the housing down and out of the way and had to disconnect the right end of the steering stabilizer. It was easier than I thought, but, still, a PITA when I was half-expecting to just pull the pan off without a hassle >:(
I've never had one of these engines apart before...those are some damn small pistons ;D
but IMO the conrods actually look hefty for such a small engine. Looks like a pretty stout lower end.
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It works pretty much how I said.....take the bolts out of the oil pan, drop it down, rotate it 180* and work it off over the pickup tube. You just have to work with it and figure out how it comes off.
These engines do throw rods sometimes....but I believe it is from abuse (lack of maintenance (oil changes and/or low oil level), or over-revving) and not a design flaw. Although, the earlier 8Vs didn't have as many counterbalancers on the crank, and some people think that is why they would throw rods....but the later ones throw rods too, so who knows.
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There's no way mine would rotate either direction. I had the front diff on one side, and the clutch cable bracket, then on the other side the header was in the way. In the past, have you had the exhaust manifold removed? I can see it pivoting that direction if the header wasn't there, but it still looks like a tight fit
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There's no way mine would rotate either direction. I had the front diff on one side, and the clutch cable bracket, then on the other side the header was in the way. In the past, have you had the exhaust manifold removed? I can see it pivoting that direction if the header wasn't there, but it still looks like a tight fit
Nope. I don't recall anything was disconnected or moved. I have done it more than once that way.
Maybe I'll have to video it next time. ;D
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I'd want to see it, it would probably amaze me because last night I couldn't see any way it would come off.