ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: Rumpshaker on August 30, 2010, 07:56:59 AM
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We recently purchased an old Samurai that has underwent several modifications. We are very excited about and though we''ve owned to Sidekicks (daily drivers) in the past, we are in unfamiliar territory with the Samurais. I have a couple of questions that hopefully someone would shed light on:
1) It has two transfer cases and we're not sure exactly why or how to use either or both, properly (no knobs with identifying marks to explain the patterns either).
2) It beats the living snot out of us and we are now urinating blood (just kidding). Despite being lifted and having 35 or 36" tire on it, it does not have one shock absorber on it. Does it need them; is that why it is riding so hard? The shackles on the end of the leafs are horizontal---is that right; should I tack them in place, vertically?
3) It idles really high--how do I adjust it down; at the carb or timing modification?
4) Anyone ever put a SBF in one; how much weight could this suspension support; would this be a bad idea?
Nice site and I appreciate any direction or clarification anyone could provide. Thanks
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Post pics of the parts in question, helps in overall diagnosis
Welcome to ZukiWorld
Wild
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It sounds like you got a basket case. IMO if you had sidekicks before and were happy with them I would sell the Sammy and build up a sidekick. samurais are notorious for riding like crap kind of like being beaten with a steel pipe just to drive.
ALL vehicles need "shock" absorbers or dampeners, that is probably most of you problems along with flat shackles. (wow it must really drive bad)(my back is now hurting thinking about it) :P
IMO v8 conversions ruin Suzuki's, everyone I have seen has rendered the vehicle junk. just no longer fun and useable, axles don't hold up any longer.....the snowball effect of doom starts there.
hope this helps but please post some pics. (those buck boards (samurais) are still very popular and within this forum you might find someone to trade with) ???
my $.02
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But it looked cool huh? Seriously it sounds like you have a strictly off road rig built to go where no trackick would dare. The double transfercases are for superlow gearing. The shackles are missing link shackles for more articulation. You would probably be better off to sell or trade it for a more stock Sammy and build it to suit you.
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Thanks for the input. Yes, it looked pretty cool and it was affordable. Our two Sidekicks were the 4-dr 4wd variety and we got plenty of use out of them but we traded the first one in when we started our family and sold the other because of condition. I visit several organized (is that an oxymoron?) mud bogs and have always been amused and curious about the Samurais. Like our Sidekicks, they mildly and conservatively pretty much went where they pleased. There are definitely more Sammies that Sidekicks at the bogs. So, I began to lightly shop for one. This one seems to have some potential, as its purpose would be exclusively for off road. But when I got it home, off the trailer and took the family for a ride, it broke our backs even on flat ground (we live in Florida---no rock climbing here, LOL). Attached are a few pics---again, suggestions are appreciated.
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Okay so you got one pic of it and a couple of Horse Trailer pics (my wife rides). Try these:
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fix them shackles put shocks on it and play. 8) if it does not improve enough to be tolerable sell!
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you hear soooo often people complaining about how "rough "their suzuki rides. 9 times out of 10 it will ride better with one important 5 minute modification.
heres what you need....
1.) a tire gauge
2.) a valve stem puller(to make things faster)
3.) a compressor
now...TAKE SOME AIR OUT OF THE TIRES!!
18-20#'s should be good for most suzukies unless they are strictly highway then i would say the mfg recommended 23#'s
i run my 33's at 15#'s on the street
everytime i have ever had tires put on a suzuki they(tire "professionals") pump them up to the tires recommended pressure, not the vehicles recommended pressure(yes people, you might want to check your other vehicles also). Tire pressure is important to maintain performance, mileage, wear(tire and suspension). that tire pressure is recommended by the mfg'r based on vehicle weight and the specific tire size, but most people (and especally the "professionals")dont realize that over inflation can be a problem as well with wear and performance.
good luck with the ride
jason
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+1 Locjaw ....
I run my 31 x 12.50 tires between 16-18psi on the street/freeway.
Makes a huge difference from where they were set by the tire place as 24psi.
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Point taken; I will check the tire pressure and go from there. I never even checeked that b/c it was so severely rough that I immediately considered the suspension and its components. If the ride was smoother, I'm sure that it would be the time and trouble that I went through to get it.
With regards to the shackles, should I pin them in the proper position using nuts and bolts or slap a bead weld on them?
As for Shocks, I believe the stock mounting points are no longer in their original places. In fact, I'm not even sure they're still on the axles. Suggestions???
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Shoulda boughta Trackick! ;)
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you hear soooo often people complaining about how "rough "their suzuki rides. 9 times out of 10 it will ride better with one important 5 minute modification.
heres what you need....
1.) a tire gauge
2.) a valve stem puller(to make things faster)
3.) a compressor
now...TAKE SOME AIR OUT OF THE TIRES!!
18-20#'s should be good for most suzukies unless they are strictly highway then i would say the mfg recommended 23#'s
i run my 33's at 15#'s on the street
everytime i have ever had tires put on a suzuki they(tire "professionals") pump them up to the tires recommended pressure, not the vehicles recommended pressure(yes people, you might want to check your other vehicles also). Tire pressure is important to maintain performance, mileage, wear(tire and suspension). that tire pressure is recommended by the mfg'r based on vehicle weight and the specific tire size, but most people (and especally the "professionals")dont realize that over inflation can be a problem as well with wear and performance.
good luck with the ride
jason
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I can appreciate your take---but my tires are at 12# on all four corners.
If anyone has any decent, closer, pics of their suspension, I would appreciate it. I am trying to figure our what the heck is up with this suspension that I have. No shocks and shackles are parallel to ground---help me figure this out. I jacked her up at the axles and tried to see how much flex was in there and using a pry bar, I had to put the serious "who done it" on it just to get the shcklea to go down a bit. If the springs are let out, away from the axle, will that soften the ride? I'm wondering if that's what's pushing the shackles out and flat (flexion). Also, would the shocks even help?
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Can you take a picture of your shackle setup? It sounds like either the wrong springs are on the vehicle or your springs are bent and the shackle is pinned to the frame.
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Can you take a picture of your shackle setup? It sounds like either the wrong springs are on the vehicle or your springs are bent and the shackle is pinned to the frame.
I'll snap some pics tomorrow and post 'em up. Thanks.
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I'm at work for 24h so I asked my wife to snap some pics for me. The only problem was she reall focused on axles and springs and not any shots of the shackles. What is apparent is that my leafs are old and there are no shocks. I'll snap some pics tomorrow, when I'm off duty. Here's what she sent:
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looks like at least 1 bent spring and the anti wrap bar on the axle if not done right can cause a binding issue
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Okay, first batch of pics includes Shackles of front and rear on Passenger side:
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Second batch includes spacer, pass side suspension points, and transfer cases.
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Ok, the shackles a certainly a problem. :) It looks like he just found some longer springs and threw them on there without bothering to modify anything else. Concidering the arch of the springs I would recommend either building new mounts front and rear so you can make the springs fit properly or just find some stock Samurai springs and putting them on.
Or if you want to keep a softer ride pick up a set of Jeep YJ springs and pick up a conversion kit from Trail Tough or one of the other sponsors of the board.
I also don't like the look of those rear shackles, so you might want to replace those as well. Replacing the front ones couldn't hurt. Once you get the springs fixed you should be able to look at mounting some shocks. Can you send a picture of how the axle mounts to the springs so we can see if there are any shock mounts there?
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Roger that; I'll snap some shots of it tomorrow. Thanks for looking.
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this thing looks like it has great potential! im jealous of the tires btw :P like drone said i would work on both sets of shackles, if you stay with those springs for now or period i would look into getting a Rear Up Front(RUF) suspension conversion. those springs look like they are too long which also i think adds to the rough ride. when the springs have room to move/travel it will help smooth it out. once again like drone said, trail tough has a good product, thats what i got when i did my RUF, and you can get some good shackles that would be alot safer than those rear ones and the stock front ones. how fast have you gone in it thus far? everything i have heard is its kinda dangerous to drive it w/o shocks altho im not exactly sure why but just something to think about
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Everything i have heard is its kinda dangerous to drive it w/o shocks altho im not exactly sure why
The problem with riding without shocks is that there is very little to stop your vehicle from bouncing once it starts. If you hit a bump at speed your car will act like a bobble-head doll and just bounce around until it eventually runs out of energy, or you crash. The shocks absorb the energy, which is why it is important to have a shock that is correct for your application. To heavy of a shock and you will have a rough ride as your suspension cannot move the shock. To soft and it can't absorb the energy properly and you get to much body roll and to bouncy of a ride.
On his rig right now the springs are acting like a solid piece of steal as they have no room to flex, so shocks are a moot point. The only thing absorbing bumps is probably the tires and the spine of whomever is in the car. :)
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Yes, back hurts...I took everyone's advice and have some stock springs on the way, courtesy of eBay. The current springs in the rear are wider than the fronts and both are atop the axles. My friends and I believe the leafs are from Jeep (perhaps the YJ thing that everybody talks about). Anywho, I have the factory springs on the way and I will use his plates with the shock mounts. Once I get it all assembled and shackles, free-swinging, I'll take measurements for some shocks---hopefully my back won't be so abused after that, LOL. Thanks for all of your input, guys (and gals?). Any other suggestions/recommendations regarding the suspension, leafs, plates, or shocks?
We are very excited to get it going. Today, I removed the grill and painted it, removed the single seat and installed two high-back, racing seats that were in a Fox-body Mustang, and they are on tracks; yay, adjustable seats, woo-hoo! :-)
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Let's see you get everything in place first, then dream up what to do next. :)
What do you plan on using the Samurai for?
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We live out in the country on a rural piece of property and I plan on using it there, mostly. However, it may visit a mud hole now and again. To me, this is kind of an entry level Zuk as it has no title and some stuff has already been done. If all goes well, I would really like to get a decent, titled Zuk and build it up slowly, the way I would like it. This one will just give me a taste and give me some ideas. Any ideas on what size shocks? It has over-the-axles leafs and a 3" body lift. Thanks again
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talk to Low Range Offroad, 801-805-6644
They have been able to answer anyquestion i have thought up to throw at em
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Used factory leafs arrived and somehow the fronts don't match, leaf-wise; three on one and four on the other (Huh?). Anywho, another one is on the way.
1) Which is better, the three leaf or four; does that mean they were from different years or 4wd vs 2wd springs?
2) From the looks of it, my Sami has rears in front but they seem too long. Is there a modification kit that I need to use or just longer shackles?
3) Should I put the fronts up front and rears to rear or should I use rears all the way around? What would that do; good or bad idea?
4) Might I be better off junking the whole suspension and starting with a complete kit from one of our site sponsors? I hate to open the wallet and sift through my lint but I am not digging do all of the back-tracking and un-charlie-foxtrotting someone elses' work; you know?
5) Based on the fact that I do need shackles, new U-bolts for the axle housings, and shocks, maybe #4 is the way to go. That said, which is the most economical and functional without having to refinace my home??? LOL Thanks for everyone's help.
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On my SJ410 I had a 4 leaf pack in front and back, but I believe the stock Samurai rear has a 4 leaf plus over-load spring that is flat. I tend not to run that as my SJ-410 didn't come with one to begin with.
Running the rear springs up front, or RUF conversion, gives you a softer ride. But you will need to make a new shackle mount 3" further forward and put a 1" drive-line spacer in, or alternatively use a folding shackle setup like Trail Tough makes or you can build your own. Check out http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/suzuki/samurai/suspension-parts/front-missing-link-kits-ruf-swap-parts.html (http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/suzuki/samurai/suspension-parts/front-missing-link-kits-ruf-swap-parts.html) for an example.
Keep the rear springs in the rear, and if they sent you all the same length I would go with rears all around. If not I would put the Samurai back to stock so you can try out the suspension in a working form before you start modifying.
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Unlike some of the others I like your set-up and am very interested in your post because I want to run 12.5 35 BFG's on my Samurai in the near future.
Here are my thoughts...
Previous owner did some spring experimentation to get the required lift. They got what the wanted with out regard to ride. I didn't see many leaves so I'm guessing your springs are rock hard.
There are no shocks absorbers in the world that will change that because your springs don't flex. Shocks absorb through dampening the upward and downward movement of the spring flex.
So unless you go back to the drawing board and change those spring you can rename your the "Ruff Rider".
35 /36's are a lot of tire under these little rigs. From what I see it takes a combination of lifts to achieve this and maintain a somewhat kidney comforting ride.
I think it takes something like this:
3" spring lift
6" SPOA lift
2" XHD Shackles
2" body lift
Your there height wise now but your ride is crap. Unlike most of us you need to come down some. What you might do is remove 1 inner leaf and see if this improves your ride. By removing springs you will reduce the stiffness and most likely some of the spring arch. In appearance you have plenty of height so a leaf removed should not hurt you.
Like the previous owner you get to be the pioneer here so take some time and play with it. Yours is an easy fix but the is no direct advise that can be given to you unless the previous owner offers to tell you where the springs came from. Then you can figure out the spring compression ratio and could take them to have some compression removed by re-arching them.
Early comments about tires have some bearing on your situation.It looks like you have either Ground Hawgs or Grand Prixs on your beast. Hawgs are hard by nature and whine like no other tire movin down the road. BUT they flat eat on 1st pass through mud. Being directional if you run out of juice moving forward you have 1 pass to get out in reverse and then its pretty much over. Lower pressure on Hawgs will ride a little better but not much.
Please keep us informed cause as I said I want to get where your at "up in the clouds".
Dang I wish I lived closer..... ;)
Tux...
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I run 33x12.5" tires on my SJ-410 with around 5-6" of lift and some fender trimming. I originally ran old-school BFG MTR's with no trimming in the front, just some work with a hammer. After switching to Pro Comp's and an RUF conversion I had to trim the front fenders a bit. But now I have more then enough room to run 35x12.5" tires, just haven't had a reason to.
After having build the 4 link in the rear I would recommend switching to coils for anyone with the mechanical ability to weld one up and the shop to build it. Much nicer riding, better control and a built in traction bar. But it's not for everyone and it did cost me close to 300 to build. A spoa with stock springs is much easier, cheaper and more then enough for almost anything.
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1 thing I did forget to mention is that you will still need to relocate your shackles Drone is dead on about that! They need to be located in a horizontal position equal to the the relaxed lenth of the spring from eye to eye. Which in your case will probaly give you more lift yet.
You have a 3" body lift and your SPOA lift appears to be with no xtra lift in the new pads. So this means the remaining lift is in the springs.
I would fix the shackle plates (buy some 2" HD plates) and pull out 1 spring and see where you are. I have driven a Sammy with a SPOA / YJ spring lift and the ride was pretty soft. This combo gives a lot of articulation so by nature it needs to flex in order to do so.
Drone,
Can you detail more about your previous lift with the 35's?
With your previous lift did you run the Z bar steering arms or use a drop Pitman arm? I think I like the drop Pitman arm better because it retains more of a natural movement and you don't have so much stuff out in the open for nature to reach up and grab ahold of.
I don't really know the pros and cons of the Z bar having not actually utilized this set up in the past.
thanks, Tux...
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I won't pretend to know what springs those are, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.
Shackles need about a 30* angle from the eye to the frame to allow for the leaf to lengthen slightly as it compresses. If yours are horizontal they won't allow for this. NO, do not weld or bolt them. Those springs strike me odd because #1: they appear too long #2: the 2nd & 3rd leaves aren't in the same arch as the main leaf & #3: at least the RF main spring is bent (just in front of where the 2nds spring ends), probably because of the shackle setup, or lack of...
The rig does have some goodies; dual xfer case... lots of ppl want em. It has a traction bar on the rear axle = good. If there isn't too much other booty fab going on, you might have a great rig with a little work.
A lot of Sammy lift springs are reputed to ride stiff & not knowing what those springs are, who knows what weight they are designed for... could be a much heavier vehicle. I'd say, get a set of proper springs, fix or redesign the shackle setup, add some right length shocks & go from there.
Question: how wide are those leaves?
On the engine question, I'd agree a v8 is overkill & there are lots of options for more power, like a 1.6l from a Trackick.
On the idle, there are idle adjustments on the carb, but 1st check for vacuum leaks as that can cause high idle.
Hth,
Fuzz
Edit: I didn't read through the whole post to get to where u got a new spring set, sry. *note to self: "read whole post".
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Guys, I just want to say thanks for being so wiling to take the time to read about my dilemmas and provide me with such good feedback. The fronts that are currently on are 2" wide and based on others pictures, I would assume that they are Sami rears. The rears that are currently on are 2.5" wide and based on the commonality, and if I was a betting man, I would suspect that they are Jeep springs (YJ?). As I said before, I purchased some used factory leafs and was planning on riding with rears on all four corners. I would assume that the stock-style rear shock would still work but I'm not sure about the fronts. Also, I agree with an earlier recommendation to move the spring mount out to accommodate the longer rear springs in the front. The question is, do I move the front mount out or the rear, farther back? Is there a kit that would accomplish this goal without the use of a fancy shop or any technical welding or engineering?
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Most spring plates have an alighnment hole in them that the spring center bolt rests in. If you lay the spring in this position then you can invision the approxamate location the shackle will need to placed at.
Earlier I said horizontal placement because once the spring begins to compress it should begin to compress outward as weight from the Sammy is placed on it. For most applications the placement is slightly inward driving the spring outward.
Tux... ;)
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Rumpshaker:
I would move the front forward and leave the rear as it is, but you could also move both 1.5" and call it good, then your axle stays in exactly the same place. I wonder if he modified the frame mounts for the springs as well or just did something weird like cut the spring down so it fit in the stock hangers...
The issue with horizontal placement of the shackle is you can easily bend it backword far enough that it wraps around and sticks to the frame. So an angle forward is a good idea.
toxblacray:
I use half of a high-steer kit, similar to the one sold by Sky Manufacturing. No bump steer and it works great with the flex.
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Okay, so Low Range Offroad just got my kids college tuition (LOL). I have the front and rear YJ Kits coming along with the corresponding bone shackles. I will be picking up a full set of YJ springs a couple of towns over for fifty bucks (not bad). When the kits get here, I'm gonna hit it like I just got out of the pen. After I set it up, I'll take some measurements and get some shocks. Updates to follow..
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"I'm gonna hit it like I just got out of the pen" LOVE THAT ONE LOL
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Well, your ride will be plenty soft. :)
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Got the kit yesterday afternoon and hit the barn with it in hands after dinner. I was disappointed to see that they forgot to ship the U-bolts so there was only so much I could do. Another odd thing was that there were no instructions. I realize that some of you are laughing right now but I am new to Zuks and though there were probably pics on the internet, my computer is in the house...
Anywho, I sent them an email and I am awaiting a response. They sent me the Sky YJ Swap Kit which comes with shackles, right? For the life of me, I cannot figure out how or why I purchased bone shackles (hmmm?).
More ??? from the lost Zuki guy:
1. I had previously purchased rubber bushings but they were for the stock Sami springs; will they work for the YJ springs?
2. Does it matter if you used the sleeved bushing or just the rubber bushings that fit? The reason I am asking is b/c I do not see how the sleeved variety will fit.
Thanks Guys (& Gals?)
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They usually ship with instructions, I'm surprised you didn't get any. They should be able to get you a PDF to help walk through the swap. If nothing else the Sky Manufacturing web page has a quick set of instructions. You can check them out at http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=171 (http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/new/detaproduct.php?id=171)
Maybe you bought some extra shackles just in case? :)
The bushings for a Samurai are different then the YJ bushings. So you will need new bushings, sorry.
I use a mixture of sleeved and non-sleeved bushings, depending on what fits. So no real help there either.
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LOL I'll take those bushings off you mine are about gone now (never by cheap homemade shackles from a junkyard Zuk)
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LOL I'll take those bushings off you mine are about gone now (never by cheap homemade shackles from a junkyard Zuk)
Doughboy, if you're serious, you can have them for $15 + the ride (I paid twice that). They are OEM rubber style. I did use a razor to bevel the inserting edge of each bushing to ease the insertion. A couple of them did have a synthetic lube on them to reduce squeaks but I'll wipe that off. Let me know.
As fr Low Range Offroad, they are shipping the U-bolts 2nd day air and I ordered the proper bushings. Hopefully, I can jump on it this weekend. Though, I must admit, there's gonna be some great football on and the weather is awesome for wings or a low country boil...
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I do want them but I have been out of work for over a year now and just don't have money but if you still have them when I get a job then I'll do it.
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The U-bolts arrived and I finally got some free time to do some work---what; still no instructions??? I swear, I'm pretty aggravated. I can attempt to work off of the various pictures that I've seen from a variety of sites but written descriptions and instructions would prove helpful. Anywho (rant-rant), I started putting things together and I have another problem; do I need to install the steel sleeve through the leaf spring eye bushings (dead center, crossing through both bushings)? The reason I ask is b/c I am having a major issue---it goes through one and tears up the other. Also, I think that I am short a couple of bolts. Though it appears to be a decent kit, it does lack in several areas.
Sorry for the rant but I am frustrated. On top of everything, they charged me for dog bone shackles for the front and rear that I didn't need (Sky's front and rear YJ kits already include 'em) and all I'm gonna get is a credit---how about a refund???
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I agree, that kinda sucks only getting a credit, especially since thye parts weren't even required. You'd think the salesperson would have known that.