ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: zaggy on July 06, 2005, 05:58:24 AM
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  Snofalls had a question about TBI spacers I couldn't give an honsest answer to on the "do it yerself engine build" thread.
  Well I hate being in that position and seeing as my nephew just bought a Kick I convinced him to help me out.
His rig...
- Stone cold stock 1991 Kick 2dr, soft top, 4WD, 5spd
- He just had it tuned up and checked over and serviced
Base tests...
- He lives over 1000km away so I had him find a lonely
 road and mark out a 1/4 mile and do (5) runs with a
 buddy timing him
 Average of (5) runs....................23.4 sec for 1/4 mile
Modification...
- (1) 2" spacer I made up in the shop
ÂÂ
 I bused it out to him and had a friend install it.
 Reports runs excellent, seems to hav a little more pull.
 Bumps against bottom of hood inner structure, so I
 had him remove the offending cross bar using an
 angle grinder and cutting wheel.
(Prd|removethispart|@BCdn thanks for showing me yours so I knew.)
Modified test...
- Repeat of the base line test, same road, driver and
 timer.
 Average of (5) runs..........................23.2 sec
  Now taking .1 away for him getting better and thats still a .1 sec improvement in the 1/4, thats really good.
Combined with his driveabilty report I can now honestly say it's a worthwhile mod.
Zag
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Geez...I gotta think with all the mods on mine I should be able to run a 23 flat ;) Glad I could help with the hood clearance issue :)
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My nephew is fairly inexperienced at this kinda thing, I would think you could shave a couple secs off just with experience, now add in all the mods I saw on yours, shave at least another couple secs....gonna have to see what "Wilds" 1/4 mile times were.
Zag
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hey canuck do you have pictures or the spacer and can you make out of aluminum ? or what did you guys use?
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zag,
2" seems like quite a bit for the small displacement. Why did you pick that (e.g. as opposed to 1")?
I'll defer to your experience/judgement, but it sounds like a spacer can help ...
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Yo Bus_Driver
  The spacer is made out of aluminum (6061 T-6) left over from the aircraft engine project, with a stock gasket on each side. No drawing I used the gasket as the template and took a night to do it.
Snofalls
  I use a neat book from the library on Sound and Sonic Waves, it has the formulas for working stuff out. (It's a reference book, you can't take it out so you have to do it there.)
  Anyway I calculated out the plenum volume and drop required to get an appreciable flow difference and then rounded to the availaible aluminum plate on hand.
  The way it worked it it should have boosted the velocity by about 10% and the volume by around 30%.
  Theoritically that should increase overall airflow and horsepower by about 3%, then the real world cuts in and cuts it even more.
  Testing gives the final result, all the math is basically to see if it's worth trying.......In this case it was a good thing and now that I've done it something I could recommend as being worth trying.
  Whats neat for the testing is this little kick is a nice low mileage unit and stone stock. I think a modified unit would benefit even more.
  Next I'm going to build a high flow aircleaner/Filter set up and have him test that.
Zag
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  I use a neat book from the library on Sound and Sonic Waves, it has the formulas for working stuff out. (It's a reference book, you can't take it out so you have to do it there.)
  Anyway I calculated out the plenum volume and drop required to get an appreciable flow difference and then rounded to the availaible aluminum plate on hand.
  The way it worked it it should have boosted the velocity by about 10% and the volume by around 30%.
  Theoritically that should increase overall airflow and horsepower by about 3%, then the real world cuts in and cuts it even more.
I understand about 30% of that (mostly the get a book from the library ... I know THAT is useful) :)
LOL
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Zag, I never timed my 1/4 mile runs,
I was just interested in the MPH ::)
I was running 87 RON gas, 30" tires,
5.83 gears and 8-9 PSI boost, average
MPH were about 93-95 in a aproximate
1/4 mile run, the lines have been faded
away, it's been 25 years since they were
sprayed onto the street, I fould the start,
but I didn't see the exact stopping point.
I never actually measured it to see if it was
an accurate 1/4 even when the lines were
visable.
Wild
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Snofalls
It breaks down this way
1) Cut and try, start at 1" and keep going till you get
the best combo. (Which is what I used to do.) Usually
means 3 or 4 tries to get it close to optimium.
2) Dig out the high school calculus and research stuff till
you know where to find the info, then calculate to
figure out the best compromise. Usually cuts it down
to 1 or 2 tries. Less work, less time, less money.
I'm no genius but when I started racing I had no money and had to build everything or find a better way to do it for less money than the fast guys. I took the advice of a really smart friend and started to research stuff before trying it and learned alot, when I started working on the aircraft engine project over 10 years ago I wanted to know what the internal engine stresses were so I hit the books and learned how to calculate internal engine pressures, bmep, torque loading and torsional resonances, rather than run it till it blows and see what broke. (ended up doing alot of that anyway, you should see the mess a G13B makes when it lets go at 11,000rpm).
WhenI started on the drive for the Airplane I calculated all the loads etc on the drive unit, and engine mounts to make sure it was safe (everything is designed to load plus 50-100% safety factor).
It's really not that hard once you read it through, like I said I am no genius, just cheap and stubborn.
The neat thing is almost everything you need to work this stuff out is at the Public Library and basic math can do most of it...then add a fudge factor.
Zag
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Hey Wild
Close enough to see if it's workin...and yours obviously does, someday I gotta see that beast.
Zag
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I should throw on a set of 30" tires and
get a good burnout video going, just for grins
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Coooool.....this I gotta see!!!!!
Zag
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I should throw on a set of 30" tires and
get a good burnout video going, just for grins
4wd smokin ;) ;D
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I'd have to put an anchor on it, I can't
hold back the power in 4WD
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Update from my nephew.....
He's had the spacer in for a few days now and.......
Claims the spacer makes the stone cold stock vehicle a little snappier and have a little better seat in the pants power.
Drives 100km a day to work and back and while he hasn't filled up yet thinks the gas guage is not dropping as quick as before.
Guess the mod was worthwhile..........specially seeing as his Uncle built it, shipped it to him and had a friend install it.
Zag
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I can't leave well enough alone.....
  Because of the hood clearance issue I made up a 1" spacer last night and have sent it off to my nephew to have it installed and re-do the tests....2" was mathmatically the optimum but I realize alot of guys don't want to cut the hood inner structure so I made the 1" and am getting it checked out.
Zag
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I have a 4" body lift, I'll test the 2" spacer
and see what happens, if you want to send
it for evaluation
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Hey Wild
  I'm interested in doing that...I don't know how a spacer will work on forced induction. I kinda think the Turbo will minimize the benefit but it would be neat to test.
  I'm gonna make up a couple more in the near future, if you're not in a rush, I'd be interested in sending one to you and see how it works.
Interested?
Zag
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The turbo motor lost a piston, ground up the
oil pump, ate the #1 rod bearing, and I think
broke the crankshaft while driving home from Moab
:'(
I'm going to put it together in N/A form, go get my
smog check and then redo the turbo on a 16V head
and go all MegaSquirt, including Ign control/boost retard
So if you want to get some testing in while I'm in the
transitional stage of N/A to Turbo, I would go do some
measured 1/4s and see what happens
Wild
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The hood isn't an issue with most of us as we are running bodylifts. I will wait and see how you get on before I attempt this with mine. The performance benefits may not be that great but it should bring my intake up high enough to reconnect the pipe to the snorkel  ;D
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Yo Wild
I'm thinking this is a great way to check out the prototype parts and get it "out of the family".
If you're interested I'm making up...
- (1") and (2") spacer plates
- Low restriction Aircleaner/Filter system
(won't fit under stock hood with the 2" but should fit
under yours)
- Retarded cam pulley
- Under Drive Crank Pulley
- Crank fire ignition system (single not dual)
Once I've got it all ready I'd love to get some independent verification of how they work.
As prototypes they will be functional but probly not the prettiest.
Still interested?
If you need a crank or bits for your rebuild PM me, I have some stuff in the "businesses" inventory we can do a deal on.
Zag
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Oh yeah
I'm also trying to find the cash to get a couple of extra 226/395 cams done up for more extensive "on the road" testing.
Zag
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That would be an interesting group of parts
to test, I have wanted to test the variable
valve timing, but nobody makes a cog for that.
I saw an RPM operated variable valve timing
mechanical cog years ago, that was made for
a VW 1.8L 4 cylinder, wanted one for the Kick
but nobody made one
This could offer lower RPM torque and higher
RPM power at the same time, and not affect
the drivability.
Let me know when you have these for testing.
I have a 16V engine that was going into the
Kick after Moab, but the piston blew before I
got home
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Oh yeah
I'm also trying to find the cash to get a couple of extra 226/395 cams done up for more extensive "on the road" testing.
Zag
I need to spec out my cam, I don't even remember
what lift it has, idles smooth, but had a major power
increase in the torque range, I really liked it, hills that
the Kick would down shift on it pulled in 3rd (auto trans)
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Let me know when you're ready "Wild"
  I'm going to put together what I call Power Kit One
and get you to try it.
- Low restriction Aircleaner/Filter system
- 1" spacer
- Under Drive Crankshaft pulley
Not a rush by any means...
Zag
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Let me know when you're ready "Wild"
I'm going to put together what I call Power Kit One
and get you to try it.
- Low restriction Aircleaner/Filter system
- 1" spacer
- Under Drive Crankshaft pulley
Not a rush by any means...
Zag
Hey Zag...I could do some testing for you as well....
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That might be easier to have a north of the
boarder tester, I don't know how customs
are with these, other than you send them as
professional samples or as a gift item
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The hood isn't an issue with most of us as we are running bodylifts. I will wait and see how you get on before I attempt this with mine. The performance benefits may not be that great but it should bring my intake up high enough to reconnect the pipe to the snorkel  ;D
yup ... a 2" spacer would be perfect to go with my 2" body lift ... nice how things can work out :)
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Prd2BCdn
I might just ake you up on some of the wilder stuff, the engine you've got is sweet and well past stock so the lightweight stuff won't have as applicable effect.
"Wild"
Customs is a non issue, but your engiine soulds like it will be better suited to give good data the
on "lightweight" mods.
Zag
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Zag, have you thought about making up phenolic resin insulating spacers? Keep the carb/throttle body nice and cool for a denser charge.
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Well if it weren't for the fact that the
coolant flows thru the throttle body
I would say this was a good idea
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I'll offer up the Goblin for testing as well, already running K&N drop in filter, Hawk header and full 2-1/4" exhaust(Dynomax Super Turbo Muffler and a high flowing cat) all on a 5 speed running 33" Swampers. It also has a 4" body lift, so no need for hood modifications! ;). I know you'll probably get a ton of people applying for testing, but I just thought I would offer. ;D
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I know you'll probably get a ton of people applying for testing, but I just thought I would offer. ;D
thats what i though so i wasn't going to say anything :D
stu
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Prd2BCdn
I might just ake you up on some of the wilder stuff, the engine you've got is sweet and well past stock so the lightweight stuff won't have as applicable effect.
Cool...let me know if I can help out in any way...imagine if we can get some of these ideas onto a 2L swap ;)
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Well guys I appreciate the offers
  I'll touch base when I get some parts built....meantime back to work for me
Zag
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Yo Bus_Driver
  The spacer is made out of aluminum (6061 T-6) left over from the aircraft engine project, with a stock gasket on each side. No drawing I used the gasket as the template and took a night to do it.
Snofalls
  I use a neat book from the library on Sound and Sonic Waves, it has the formulas for working stuff out. (It's a reference book, you can't take it out so you have to do it there.)
  Anyway I calculated out the plenum volume and drop required to get an appreciable flow difference and then rounded to the availaible aluminum plate on hand.
  The way it worked it it should have boosted the velocity by about 10% and the volume by around 30%.
  Theoritically that should increase overall airflow and horsepower by about 3%, then the real world cuts in and cuts it even more.
  Testing gives the final result, all the math is basically to see if it's worth trying.......In this case it was a good thing and now that I've done it something I could recommend as being worth trying.
  Whats neat for the testing is this little kick is a nice low mileage unit and stone stock. I think a modified unit would benefit even more.
  Next I'm going to build a high flow aircleaner/Filter set up and have him test that.
Zag
Translation-I wasted a bunch of time to make a stock Tracker go a tenth faster in the 1/4 mile, then tested it with an extremely inaccurate test on a dirt road by my nephew 1000km away.  I thought you were gonna build a rally kick with that sidedraft carb motor.  You're disappointin' me here Zag. ::) 8) Just bustin' on ya man, u should do as many hopups as you can to the stock mill without machine work and see how much more power you can gain. :D
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sweet I am also north of border and stock except exhaust 2" so if I could help let me know (if nobody else offers that is ;D)
I am out here in ont. Toronto that is .......I was the bus driver on the Molson indy waving as we passed the checkered flag followed by pace cars with red lights and funny men wearing blue sight. they were waving and yelling happy things at me!!!
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Well if it weren't for the fact that the
coolant flows thru the throttle body
I would say this was a good idea
You make up two insulating spacers. One between the intake manifold and head and the other between the intake manifold and throttle body. This still keeps the manifold from heating up so the volume of the air charge won't increase much and helps with resisting knock. ;D
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Yo LawDog
just what I guy needs...getting busted agin...
Still collecting parts for the RallyKick dude, gotta do it on a budget ya know.
Till then i want to use what I've got to test out low level bolt ons.
RallyKick will rock for testing the upper end mods but I really want to see what this real basic bolt on stuff measures at.
I know what you mean about testing proceedures, but dyno time is 200.00 per hour plus set up and I can't afford that on a regular basis.....so we make do with averaging and getting what we can.....
Zag
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CJ
Your idea about isolating is good but with the coolant passing throught the TBI the benfit will be real minimal on a different engine though it would be better.
As aside note: Getting cold air to the TBI inlet will get you more for less effort.
Zag
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There still is a flaw in this insulation, the coolant
flows thru the intake manifold too.
OK here is the real world data, running a 160*
thermostat, which turned out to be really 145*
the IAT was at 75-130*, depending on the time
of day (ambient temp) and if I was at cruise or
stopped at a light, I then switched to a 180*
thermostat and the IAT only rose 3-5*, no real
difference.
Insulating the TBI in theory sounds good, but
with the design of this intake and TBI system,
there are no real gains to be had, sorry guys
Wild
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Back to the drawing board then ::) I've never seen the TBI setup as I have an 8v carby and a 16v mpfi so I'm living and learning. ;D
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That's the whole idea CJ
Zag
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  I know what you mean about testing proceedures, but dyno time is 200.00 per hour plus set up and I can't afford that on a regular basis.....so we make do with averaging and getting what we can.....
Zag
You guys don't have a local racetrack with an amateur night?? We've got one here every Tues. night. Top Dawg Tuesdays. It's on my day off, so I'm planning on getting Sammi up there soon.
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You guys don't have a local racetrack with an amateur night?? We've got one here every Tues. night. Top Dawg Tuesdays. It's on my day off, so I'm planning on getting Sammi up there soon.
Yeah we do have a drag stip and they do occasionally have a night open for street cars, $25 for the evening (or day, whatever it happens to be). BUT I happen to be 5 minutes away from the 'unsanctioned' drag strip where I'll be doing my test and tunes ;).
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There is a strip here as Prd2BCdn pointed out
But
- You blow a day to get 3 runs
- Costs 25.00 to get in but you don't escape for less than 50.00
- It's only about every third weekend they have street runs
There is none out where my nephew is.
Zag
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Ok guys
Last night nephew reported in with the results on the 1" spacer.
" Same tests, same bodies, same place etc. 3 sets of 5 runs each"
- Repeated runs with 2" spacer...average 23.0 (flat), I think the young buck is getting the
hang of this.
- Runs with out spacer...average 23.2
- Runs with 1" spacer... average 23.1
Reports doesn't feel quite as perky but not much different, still a measurable benefit and the 1"apparently clears hood without modification.
Fuel mileage...
Stock (after tune up)..........31mpg commuting
2" spacer............................33mpg commuting
1" spacer............................31mpg commuting
Now these results are not the most accurate
- rookie tester
- manual stop watch
- eye ball start stop
- done a 1000km away from me so I can't supervise
But the averaging should mitigate some of the error...
They consistantly show an improvement with having a spacer
and the 2" does seem to show a little more improvement.
Man I wish I had the money for about 20hrs (about 5000.00 Cdn inc set up)on a Super Flow computerized engine dyno....I'd really like rock solid proof of what the actual hp difference is.
FWIW...Spacer due seem to improve things a little and it's a cheap mod.
So far spent about 30.00 in aluminum, 4hrs building, 20.00 gaskets, 18.00 freight and I owe my friend on the coast a couple cases of beer for swapping parts around.
Zag
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A 3" TBI spacer might be the hot item for
allthe guys that have the 3" bodylift and
want to retain the stock air filter setup.
Also you guys need to have the other end
of the intake runner supported so it won't
break your TBI unit. Ask me how I know :(
Wild
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Hey Wild
Mathmatically the air velocity starts to drop off at 2.68", but thats theroritical.
That's also why I didn't go any taller. But I would bet a 1" spacer at the air inlet
side would get the extra inch for the body lift and help the airflow a titch.
The only way you would know for sure is to try it. But I don't have access to
anything with that kind of lift and the nephew don't want no holes in his hood.
Zag
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Well 2.68" is close enough the rubber air
slinky should connect back together with
the filter housing
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If a guy has got the room I think the 1" air inlet spacer machined like a velocity stack and the aluminum air intake tube opened to match would be a neat improvement and probly worth the effort.
But to be honest I'm running out of time right now and have some business revenue producing stuff to catch up on...maybe later we can try some of the other stuff with spacers
Zag
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;D Go make Money ;)
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Zag,
I'm building a spacer within this week. its never going to get tested or anything like that. what size do you want me to make it? there are just too many things about 1in or is that 2in or 2.68? ;D it could be a foot long if you want, its all going though the hood anyway...
Stu
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After seeing your aircleaner pics and that long intake tube I would think the 2"
The reason for the 2" is there are know results....with that long intake tube I would flare the end inside the airfilter housing (like a bugle) it will help with the airflow, and have the lip of the flare and inch or 2 up from the base.
That way you've got somewhat of a known with the 2" spacer and some thing to experiment with on the intake tube.
Good luck
Zag
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Zaggy, Are you thinking about making any of these for sale? If so, how much do you think they would cost? I would definately be interested in a 2" spacer for my Goblin Tracker...
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Hi Digger
I hadn't thought of it....I was just kinda passin on the info. I could but is there really enough guys that would want them?
To do it inexpensively, cause to be honest I'm out of scrap 2" aluminum plate, you'd need to do them in batches like your coil spacers.
I guess if enough guys are interested I could price out doing a batch. But I want to get
more feed back from the test subjects to be sure of the results. But yeah if the results are confirmed and enough guys are interested to do a batch I suppose we could.
So everyone knows, the original 2" spacer is on another test Kick (friend of nephews) and I'm waiting for confirming feed back. I also have one more test subject I would like to have evaluate the installed piece.
How many guys would be interested?????????
Zag
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Like I said before, I'm definately interested and might even want 2 of them. I'll trade you a set of 1" coil spacers for one 2" throttle body spacer... LOL! ;D
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But you're going up....
I'm going down..... (there is no double intendra there!!!!!!!!)
Maybe I should throw it on the forum, after I get to evaluate one personally,
to test interest? Whattya think?
Zag
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I'd get a 2" spacer ... unless I fab a 1.5" first :P
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I'd be interested in one.
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After talking to Eric I'm testing interst on another thread
Thanks Zag
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To the guys I talked to about TBI spacers....
Sorry it has been so long but life keeps throwing me curve balls and I just got hit with another couple.
I don't know when I can get back to them but when I do I will contact you.
Zag