ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Sidekick, Vitara, Geo Tracker (Gen. 1 Platform) 1989-1998 => Topic started by: lazzer408 on November 23, 2010, 03:06:53 PM
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Hello everyone. I didn't see a section for the x90 so I guess the Sidekick section will have to do. I'm buying an x90 with the intention of doing a V6 swap and I had a couple questions I wanted to ask. I'm looking at swapping in the Suzuki H series engines like the H24A and H27A used in the Vitara. I plan on only rear wheel drive and want to keep the manual trans. The Vitara came with a 5-speed and I asked one of the local junkyards if they had one. They do and said the "dummy transfercase" is included. So here comes the questions.
What is a dummy case? Just an empty t-case?
Is there a 5-speed that will bolt up to the H series engine with just a typical tailshaft housing?
If I do decide to do 4wd, is the Vitara t-case suitable for the x90? Is the front driveshaft on the same side of the car as the x90 t-case?
Does anyone have a thread with a Vitara engine swap?
I'm not new to custom fabrication so assume I don't have any limitations in that area. Mounts and brackets are cakewalk as well as electrical wiring and rewiring.
Thanks.
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Make sure you get the entire donor vehicle. Otherwise you will probably be missing something that is needed to do the swap. You will probably want to put a body lift on as well to make sure you have enough clearance on the hood, or you could modify the hood with a scoop of some sort.
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Doner cars are hard to come by. I've never had good luck finding any. I do have some connections at the local yards that get me some killer deals though. I'm probably going to have to piece build it.
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On that engine swap. There is NOT a dummy t-case behind a manual 2wd in the GV or XL7 engine combos. It's just a plain ol' manual or auto tranny with a single output... Make sure to verify what you're getting...
Good luck! -Eric
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On that engine swap. There is NOT a dummy t-case behind a manual 2wd in the GV or XL7 engine combos. It's just a plain ol' manual or auto tranny with a single output... Make sure to verify what you're getting...
Good luck! -Eric
Thanks. This is the Vitata your talking about right? So the 2wd just has a typical tailshaft housing? Does the 2wd use a longer rear driveshaft then the 4wd? Is the Vitata AWD or 4WD?
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How strong are the stock Sidekick/x90 diffs? How about the Vitara 5-speed transmission? How much power can I realistically shove through them and maintain some reliability?
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On that engine swap. There is NOT a dummy t-case behind a manual 2wd in the GV or XL7 engine combos. It's just a plain ol' manual or auto tranny with a single output... Make sure to verify what you're getting...
Good luck! -Eric
Thanks. This is the Vitata your talking about right? So the 2wd just has a typical tailshaft housing? Does the 2wd use a longer rear driveshaft then the 4wd? Is the Vitata AWD or 4WD?
Eric is referring to the fact that having the entire engine wiring harness and ECU from the donor vehicle will make the swap a LOT easier! Also, the XL7 and GV are just larger variations of the same basic vehicle
I am not intimately knowledgable with the newer Vit/Trackers (although I do own an '02 Tracker 4-door with the 2.5), I believe that the existing diff and drivetrain can take the extra HP of the 2.5 Suzuki v-6.
Things start fo go just a bit flaky when you stuff a GM 4.3 v-6 into a Suzuki...
I hope that this helps!
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I was thinking I'd retain the x90 diffs. They are the same as the Sidekick correct? If the Vitara diffs are stronger and would work I can probably get my hands on those too.
I was thinnking about it and it would be really easy, and cheaper, to swap in a Mazda BP. They are good for 250+ on stock internals and 12-15psi. I'd be able to use the stock x90 wiring harness for the most part. I still have my heart set on the v6 swap. I'm suprised I can't find anyone whos done the 20 25 or 27 swap to a Sidekick. o.O
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you might contact Sean at aftermarket4x4 (http://members.cox.net/aftermarket4x4/2liter.html (http://members.cox.net/aftermarket4x4/2liter.html))
He is the Suzuki engine swap Guru on the East Coast (& probably everywhere else...)
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I am still doing an 05 2.7 V6 swap into my 93 tracker. Been waiting for two weeks to get the BCM, and waited that long for the TCM. With the newer electronic packages, piecing a swap together is FRUSTRATING. You can't just swap engines and transmissions any more. Installing them in a vehicle is not the problem, computers have to match, to transmissions, to engines, to computers. If you stick with the pre 05 models, only one computer, but still have to match engine and transmission.
YOU REALLY NEED TO GET EVERYTHING!!! Motor, Transmission, Computer, WIRING (motor, transmission, dash, computer, and everything in between). Best way is with a donor vehicle, because what you forgot, or didn't think of, is still there on the donor.
Or, piece it together, and probably wish you had just bought a donor.
Oh Yes. It does sound sweet, and has lots of speed with just 3rd & 4th, because I am still missing the Body Control Module.
ALSO, Get a hard copy FSM for both vehicles.
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I'm not limited to using the Vitara ECU. I have the know how and electronics background to run the Vitara engine off any V6 ecu I want. The only major issues doing so are the wiring connectors to fit the Vitara's sensor connectors and having the correct crank/cam trigger pulses. The rest is easy. The tune may be off a bit due to the different VE charistics between engines but it's not as bad as you think. The feedback loops, fuel trims, and choice of injectors can usually compensate for the differences. I wouldn't expect a GM 4.3L ECU to be anywhere close but as long as it's a newer engine with similar design it's not so hard.
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Then you won't have any problem.
It is the feedback on the CAN system that Suzuki is using on 05 and above that has me stumped. With no BCM, the ECM has a communication failure, so the TCM sees the comm. failure and goes to Fail Safe Mode. No torque converter lock-up, only 3rd & 4th gears, no downshift, etc.
With the ability to make any motor & tranny work with whatever computers at hand, you should not have any issues.
Wiring connectors ARE a vexing issue. I have cut two connectors in half, and sanded them thinner, to get one connector that I could not find. I have also soldered the ends of wires, inserted them into a female connectors and RTV'd them in place. Which is why I was emphasizing just getting a donor vehicle, it would have been easier (and my wife would not think I was NUTS).
Squeezing it in and connecting drive train is not hard to do - making it function correctly takes more time.
I look forward to your build.
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Oh yeh I hate Canbus. If one thing is missing -bam- the cel is on and u fail emissions. I'll find an obd2 ecu without canbus.
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Is there a center diff on the x90/Sidekick or Vitara? My intention is awd for street use. Suspension will will be lowered and likely 17" wheels with 45 or 50 series tires.
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Is there a center diff on the x90/Sidekick or Vitara? My intention is awd for street use. Suspension will will be lowered and likely 17" wheels with 45 or 50 series tires.
If the donor vehicle did not say "All Wheel Drive" (& I can't think of any Suzuki SUV model that offers AWD - certainly anything older than a XL7...), then there is no center differential or viscus coupler. That said, driving any part-time 4WD vehicle on dry pavement is a very bad thing to do.
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It looks like the Vitara came in AWD. Now I need to see if I can find one in Manual.
I'd need.
Sidekick front diff (my x90 is 2wd)
Vitara H27A engine (+engine harness to get the plugs. Likely a JDM engine)
Vitara 5-speed
Vitara AWD xfer case
Think I can shove 400 street horsepower through it?
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Is there a center diff on the x90/Sidekick or Vitara? My intention is awd for street use. Suspension will will be lowered and likely 17" wheels with 45 or 50 series tires.
If the donor vehicle did not say "All Wheel Drive" (& I can't think of any Suzuki SUV model that offers AWD - certainly anything older than a XL7...), then there is no center differential or viscus coupler. That said, driving any part-time 4WD vehicle on dry pavement is a very bad thing to do.
I'm still reading up on it but it looks like the Grand Vitara has a center diff. Two versions. One has a 2hi/4hi/4lo dash selector, one doesn't.
EDIT - Looks like it's either called single-mode (full time AWD), and 4-mode which is AWD/4hi-lock/4low-lock/neutral.
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I got my x90 today! It's blue. 2wd. Very clean body but 186k miles. Slightly noisy transmission. Steering feels loose. I haven't had much time to dive into it yet. I'll update as things progress.
EDIT - What a fun little car. I think every bolt behind the dash was loose.
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Somewhat amusing. Where you able to get everything tight and fix the steering issues?
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Somewhat amusing. Where you able to get everything tight and fix the steering issues?
The steering issues are a combination of lower balljoints, loose wheel bearings, and worn struts. The steering box itself is fine. I got the dash rattles fixed. There's still some noises here and there. 2 nights ago it dumped it's coolant because some dip$hit left a bolt out of the water pump and it blew the gasket out. I fixed that. It had a new timing belt and I did the valve cover gasket as well. Pretty clean top end. Windows are slow. There's odds and ends all over that need to be taken care of but nothing major. The rear shocks were worn so I threw some Autozone replacements on it. What a mistake that was! The rear end would leave the pavement because they were so stiff going up. I took them back and put Firebird shocks on. MUCH better and only $19ea. :)
Once the chassis is all sorted out I can focus on the swap. I may have sourced a H27A from a friend's sister who just totaled out her Grand Vitara (rear end). I'm waiting to hear from the insurance company to see what the payout is. I did find a 5-speed and t-case but it's pricey. $333 for the case, $500 for the trans. ouch. :'(
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Make sure you get the entire vehicle, otherwise you will run into a world of headaches trying to get the computers working.
Someone else just commented on the windows being slow. I think they used motors from a Geo Prizm.
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Once the chassis is all sorted out I can focus on the swap. I may have sourced a H27A from a friend's sister who just totaled out her Grand Vitara (rear end). I'm waiting to hear from the insurance company to see what the payout is. I did find a 5-speed and t-case but it's pricey. $333 for the case, $500 for the trans. ouch. :'(
Get the complete car from insurance co. If you are stuck on using Manual Trans, get an early years XL7 with a manual trans. As you have noticed, piecing together a swap is pricey and can be very time consuming. As you have noted stay away from 2005 and up with the CAN system, unless you have everything to change over.
Where are you located?
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Illlinois
I have to use '06-'08 because the t-case has a center diff and single-mode awd. I think <06 doesn't have a center diff in the t-case and is 4wd only. Not sure. It's hard to find anything explaining the various combinations. I'm not worried about the canbus systems. I don't have to stick with a Suzuki ECU. I'm likely going with a Honda 3.2L ECU but I haven't done much research into it yet. I'm sure there's an OBD2 6-cyl ECU out there somewhere without canbus. The biggest issue with running a different ECU is the crank/cam triggers. If I have to I can get a crank mount trigger wheel made or modify the H27A's CAS. Second issue is to use the MAF/MAP from whatever ECU I go with and use the same size injectors as that ECU. Anything else can be adjusted via AEM FIC and that's the option I'll probably go with.
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I just bought a project from someone, 1994 sidekick that is getting a 2000 2.5L and auto trans out of a GV, the previous owner sent the harness and computer to trail tough to be modified for use in the tracker. The wiring that needs to be spliced is all labeled (about 20 splices) to be hooked up in various locations.
I will keep you guys updated once I get my shop cleared out and get the new drivetrain mounted and start the wiring.
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Is the enigne in the Sidekick already? Pics?
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Is the enigne in the Sidekick already? Pics?
not mounted in it yet, but from measuring it all up it should fit no problem. Trail Tough has done this swap before, so it does fit, I think you need a body lift or a custom hood to clear the engine, but I am goimg to try and lower the motor instead if I can get away with it.
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Custom manifold? It looks like alot of the engine's height is the intake. I want to drop the car lower not up. ;)
And in other news...
I cut out the brace between the cab and trunk and will be mounting a 2x12" bandpass enclosure into a board that replaces the plastic cover that usually sits there. It will be carpeted and look as one piece. It's a Q-logic that used to be sold by Bestbuy. I located one new old stock and got a deal. The silver trim will be painted blue to match the car and the inside lighted with blue LEDs strips. X90 will be frosted into the glass causing the letters to glow. Pics soon. Here's the box.
(http://www.autotoys.com/pics/QB212.jpg)
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Is the enigne in the Sidekick already? Pics?
not mounted in it yet, but from measuring it all up it should fit no problem. Trail Tough has done this swap before, so it does fit, I think you need a body lift or a custom hood to clear the engine, but I am goimg to try and lower the motor instead if I can get away with it.
There isn't any room to drop the motor lower. I have a dropped diff, and only half inch or so clearance for the oil pan. And yes, I am in process of custom hood.
Wish I had went with a custom wiring set up, or 2000 computers.
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I have a dropped diff, and only half inch or so clearance for the oil pan.
How much is the diff dropped?
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I am down about 2-2 1/2" drop on my diff. I have make a new skid pan that will drop slightly below cross member. When you get the v-6 setting in there you will see.
I think Muskegtracker did a 2" body lift for hood clearance. And of course you could build a custom intake for lower profile, or modify the hood. Eric has been putting solid axles under his conversions, which also allows you the ability to drop the motor what is required.
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Ok thanks for the info. I think I'm going to try and make another intake rather then raise the body or cut the hood. I don't want anyone to know what's in it until the light turns green. ;)
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It's hard to find any info on these things. What differentials fit the x90? Sidekick? Vitara? Which years? I found out some things about the Vitara front diff fitting but they weren't clear as to what years fit what and which axles to use. Is there an interchange guide somewhere?
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Today I added a black 2002 ZR2 Tracker to the collection. $1500 with 115k miles. Clean body but has a locked up v6 engine. I might throw a junkyard engine in that and use it's old 2.5L for my x90 build. That way I can bore it to whatever pistons I use and turn the crank to whatever rods I use. It's going to be handy to have in the driveway for taking measurements. fun fun. ::)
I found one piston that might work in the H27A.
Ford Duratec 2.0L/2.3L
88mm bore (+.020 over) (H27A std. is 88mm)
21mm pin (not sure if it's a floater)
28.5mm compression height (0.9mm lower then H25A)
The H25A is supposed to have a 29.4mm compression height. I haven't verified this yet. It was info leached off a Mazda forum talking about piston swaps for the KL-DE/ZE. If the 2.7L (H27A) is the same crank/block/rod as a 2.7L, just larger bore, then I'll have all the rod/piston measurements soon.
I feel like I'm talking to myself on this forum. Isn't anyone interested on how to boost the H2xA on the cheap? ???
EDIT - Looks like the Vitara 2.0L uses the same piston as the H25A and same rod as both the H25A and H27A. Still diggin'...
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I'll buzz a friend of mine up in Canada that has done a lot of work on what can be done with the V6. The 2.7 is a 100hp boost over the standard 8 valve, so most people call that pretty good and don't need to crank it up any further. We do like to read about it though, at least I do. :D
BRD HNTR has a 2.7 block, head and intake minus sensors sitting on the floor that supposedly has a lower end knock. Might be a better target for the rebuild then an engine that has seized completely.
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I have a buddy running an engine shop in town so I can get things like crank work done pretty cheap. I would rather have the extra 200cc and get the 2.7L. Let me know what he'd want for it. I might have to hold out for a complete engine though. I'll get nickle and dimed to death having to find/buy everything for a shortblock.
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That is why he ended up buying it and why we recommend you get a donor vehicle. :D
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Well the Tracker has good heads. It didn't jump time but the chain guides are toast. It must be something in the bottom end locking it up. Should have the block out soon. Can't wait to have some rods in my hand to take measurements. :)
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I have a buddy running an engine shop in town so I can get things like crank work done pretty cheap. I would rather have the extra 200cc and get the 2.7L. Let me know what he'd want for it. I might have to hold out for a complete engine though. I'll get nickle and dimed to death having to find/buy everything for a shortblock.
I JUST got my Tracker running w/o any codes popping up. It will be after the holidays before I know that I can part with motor. As Kris said it has been reported to have a lower end knock. It turns over fine. 2.7 Block and heads intact, coils on heads. I used the front engine shield, harmonic balancer, valley cooling plumbing, and most emissions electronics. I also have 2006 ECM, TCM, BCM without wiring for 5 speed auto (all from same vehicle).
To be honest, I would hold out for a complete vehicle, if you are building up a turbo motor you don't necessary need a running motor but nothing like everything at hand.
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I may be interested depending on the price. Where is the engine located? I won't be using a Suzuki ECU. Most likely a Honda, Mazda, or something distributerless, sequential injection, no canbus, no electronic cluster, and no TCU/BCU. It's going to be a fun splice. All I need from the x90's harness is constant power, ign power, and a few signals here and there from headlights and blower that just causes the engine to idle up and fuel pump signal. It should be a fun splice.
Actually, didn't Honda boost a V6 is something? Acura MDX might be what I'm thinking of.
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NW Washington State. I don't think Honda produces a boosted V6, unless you mean for Indy Car.
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So I've been digging for specs awhile now and from what I found the H27A has the following...
Bore - 88mm
Comp Height - 29.4132mm
Rod Lenght - 143.2mm
Pin - 21mm
Big End - 53mm
The Ford Duratec .020 over piston is 88mm with a CH of 28.5mm. To maintain the same distance from the center of the big end to the top of the piston, I'll need 144.1132mm rods. Renault has a 144mm/21mm/51.6mm rod. I'd have to open up the big end or cut the H27A crank.
The Dodge Neon .020" over piston is 88mm with a CH of 31.4. I'd need a 141.2132mm rod. I'm not sure that I want to shorten it that much.
Renault rods are 144/21/51.6
Nissan VQ35 rods are 144/22/55
Mitsu Evo 10 rods are 143.75/23/55
VW 1.8/2.0 rods are 144/20/50.6
Vauxhall(gm) rods are 143.1/21/52
Looks like Renault or VW would be the best bet so far. I'm still looking into other piston options to open up my rod choices. I still haven't found the H27A rod widths.
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Here's some pics of the sub. Work-in-progress. ;)
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More pics of sub.
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And one more pic. I'll get more when it's carpeted/painted and in the car. I need to do some testing first. I didn't have the exact specs on these subs so calculating the bandpass without it is shooting in the dark. I found another model that's similar so I used those specs. I think it might be tuned too low.
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It's hard to find any info on these things. What differentials fit the x90? Sidekick? Vitara? Which years? I found out some things about the Vitara front diff fitting but they weren't clear as to what years fit what and which axles to use. Is there an interchange guide somewhere?
X90 has 4:68 or thereabouts. The Vitara/Track/Kick differentials interchange but the X should have the 26-spline shafts.
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It's hard to find any info on these things. What differentials fit the x90? Sidekick? Vitara? Which years? I found out some things about the Vitara front diff fitting but they weren't clear as to what years fit what and which axles to use. Is there an interchange guide somewhere?
X90 has 4:68 or thereabouts. The Vitara/Track/Kick differentials interchange but the X should have the 26-spline shafts.
Other then the spline, are the front half shafts the same? This '02 Tracker I bought doesn't have any locking hubs. The half shaft is always engauged to the front hubs and the diff has a pressure activated clutch for the input driveshaft. I would like to use an axle like that but would modify it so it's always locked.
This is the combination I have so far...
'06-08 GV 5-speed trans.
'06-08 GV single-mode t-case
'02 Tracker (maybe others) front diff.
'02 Tracker axles for the always locked hubs.
2.5L engine. I have more piston/rod combinations for this engine then the 2.7L.
What's up with this forum's reply box wanting to scroll up all the time?
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You can fit manual locking hubs, there is a write up in the Tech Archive.
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I don't have a need for it though. I'm trying to make it full time all wheel drive with center differential. This car is for on-road use only.
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A little update.
I cut the springs for a 2" drop. I also swapped the rear Firebird shocks for Corvette shocks as the Firebird's extended lenght would have allow the springs to pop out. Ride is about the same but MUCH less body roll and dive. It corners like my Miata now. The rear end has always been stiff and bouncy so I'm going to try some other springs I have that are a slightly smaller diameter wire. Civic maybe, I can't remember. This should soften it up some. The stock springs are too thick for a car this light. I'd do the same for the front but I think the added weight of the v6 will tame them a bit. I'd like another inch or two drop but I can't cut off too much until the engine/drivetrain are in.
I've been looking into the Duratec 3.0 v6 as another option. It has a small mod following and Nobel managed 425-450hp out of it in their "supercar". Question is, will the Mazda MPV's drivetrain handle it. ???
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It will be interesting when you apply that much HP against the front CV's (and the rest of running gear) on dry pavement (lots of traction). The sudden high loads occurring at rapid shifts tend to break things.
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I've seen Suzuki's bouncing 33"s on rocks in 4-low and that's alot of abuse. My tires will likely be 205-215/45-50/17 and I'm thinking that as light as this is, it's going to launch pretty hard. It's not like I have 2+ tons of weight to pull against. We shall see though won't we. >:D
EDIT - The Civic springs turned out to be a lot better then the Suzuki rears. With those on, the rear end bumps now feel like the front end bumps. Instead of thump-BAM it's now thump-thump.
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Although unfinished, this box isn't going anywhere. And I still have some trunk space left. ;D
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Going for some thump in the trunk huh?
A quick note on the 33's on rocks. What snaps the axles like twigs is when the tire gets bound up and can't spin. Bouncing doesn't help on the longevity, but a lot of that power is being absorbed by the springs and not taken into the axle itself. Unless your running a traction bar.
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If the begining of the chain is the crankshaft, and the end of the chain is the tire on the pavement (or a rock), the half-shafts are the first to go? I don't think the springs are absorbing much of the drivetrain torque. I have a feeling the weakest link in my build is going to be the transmission. I'll assume off-roaders are popping halfshafts in 4-low? The transmission doesn't actually see the multiplication in torque that the low reduction makes. The trans only sees what's comming off the crankshaft and if I double the engine torque, it's stll less then the low reduction adds to the drivetrain. Say I leave the transmission out of the equation (Stick it in 4th 1:1). With 200ft-lbs at the crank through a 3:1 low gear I have 600lbs at the driveshafts. If I boost that engine to 400ft-lbs, and don't use 4-low, I'm only putting 400ft-lbs to the driveshafts. I'm fairly convinced the drivetrain can handle the power of a v6 turbo but like I said, the transmission worrys me.
I'm impressed by what some people are getting out of these Duratec V6s. I'm trying to find an AWD (center diff) drivetrain that'll bolt to it.
Can anyone think of another longitudinal mounted V6 AWD -something- available with a manual transmission? It MUST contain a center differential. The only thing I've found so far is the '06-08 Grand Vitara and I think there's a Toyota truck out there with a center diff. Toyota 4-runner I believe. If I go the Toyota route, next thing you know I'll have an LS400 1uzfe v8 crammed in here. lol
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I was just talking about Suzuki's bouncing around on the rocks. What usually breaks the front birfields is the flex, you get them at to much of an angle and they bind up and break.
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Did someone here tell me they had a v6 block with a knock forsale?
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Did someone here tell me they had a v6 block with a knock forsale?
I have the H-27 that is supposed to have small knock in bottom end. I purchased it for parts, and have not heard it run. As it still has all coils on it, It is still worth $150 to me. If you are interested, I can try and drop the pan and get photo's of the rod bearings this weekend.
I am located in Bow, Wa. 98232
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Yes I'd very much like to see it. Mine spun 4 rods and one main (ouch).
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That does sound painful...
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Yes I'd very much like to see it. Mine spun 4 rods and one main (ouch).
I will get external photo's tonight. The only electronics are the coils. The front timing cover is cracked, harmonic balancer is distorted, and cooling manifold under intake is broke (car with the engine I am using had been sandwiched). There are no motor mounts.
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The crank is one of the pieces I needed badly. If it got hit hard enough to bend the balancer I'd be worried about the crank being bent as well. Doesnt sound like a used motor with a knock. It sounds like scrap. :(
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The sandwiched motor is the one that I am running in my Tracker. I thought the broken MAP & EGR electronics were from the motor being shifted around and hauling in back of pickup. When the cooling manifold turned up broke I knew that I had not got what I expected, and it was already sitting in my tracker. But it is running good now that I have the wiring correct. Only 20 mpg on second tank, but LOTS of power. My dual exhaust worked out fine, a little loud when opened up.
Your problem with the HP you are talking about is going to be traction and keeping it straight.
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I have two projects. First the x90 had to get fixed up as a daily driver until I found another car. I wound up picking up the 2002 Tracker. The Tracker needs a 2.5 put back in and the x90 needs a 2.5 or 2.7 to be built up for that project. Tracker comes first and it's block has one damaged main and the crank needs a rebuild. I could fix both but it would be easier to find a used engine or parts of one as long as the block and crank were ok. If your 2.7 needed less work it would be beter to rebuild it rather then this 2.5 if the cost justified it. $150 is half what it would cost me to get this crank reworked for example.
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This motor does have a small knock on bottom end. I pulled the pan (should have stopped there), oil pickup was half fouled.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_86HP5-adsWc/TSauJq7F3yI/AAAAAAAAISc/Q0AM1vJbh2g/s256/DSCF0267.JPG)
The short story is #4 rod is spun, rest look very good.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_86HP5-adsWc/TSauF9k5J9I/AAAAAAAAIRs/LxrjblZOulI/s640/DSCF0260.JPG)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_86HP5-adsWc/TSauGRD80XI/AAAAAAAAIR0/iVwdP-UekF8/s640/DSCF0261.JPG)
I am not going to pull the bottom off it to check mains as at this point it does not matter, and I want to keep it somewhat intact.
Photo's of other Rod caps & journals at http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/TrackerEngineSwap# (http://picasaweb.google.com/CrawlersNW/TrackerEngineSwap#)
This also came with fuel injection.
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Looks like lack of oil changes huh?
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It worked in my favor, cause it came with parts I knew I needed, and a couple I didn't know I needed. I had the lower pan off on my new motor, and the pick-up was clean, makes me feel better.
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So your running a 2.7 in a tracker? Looks like an automatic? Did you run into any major problems getting it in there?
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There is not much room. I used exhaust with pre-cats from a 2003 (cats are smaller diameter), and dropped my front diff a little lower. Also have to modify the hood because the front of the intake is about an inch high, a body lift would give more room. I am running stock tracker alternator, and it is also tight. Small issues, and it just about dropped in, using back TC mount to position everything. Then came the wiring with CANBUS, tried only two computers, no go, got the BCM and still no go, rewired it, and added at least one ground to BCM, now everything seems to be working.
I also have an extra 06 ECM, TCM, & BCM from a running 06 with 5 speed auto.
Here is my build link http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/tracker-2x4-rockers-frnt-bmper-4-dr-sprngs-lwered-frnt-diff-$30-steel-frnt-diff/ (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/tracker-2x4-rockers-frnt-bmper-4-dr-sprngs-lwered-frnt-diff-$30-steel-frnt-diff/)
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Let me know what you'd want for that engine shipped to 60002.
No news right now. I'm still gathering info/parts for the build. I'm still considering other engine options because I don't know for sure what the '06-08 GV 5-speed can handle. Maybe I won't build the Suzuki v6 and just run NA and call it a day but a boosted v6 AWD lowered x90 would be sick fun.
On another note...
My '02 Tracker engine goes in this week. I don't plan on keeping it though. So soon I'll have a black '02 ZR2 Tracker forsale. 114k miles if anyone is interested. It's in pretty good shape. I've been replacing everything I find broken like door handles and trim pieces. The used engine I bought has 85k on it and a 6mo warranty fwiw.
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Let me know what you'd want for that engine shipped to 60002.
I will try to get that figured out. I was working at an Archery shoot all weekend, so had no time to get to shippers.
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Shipping at 200 lbs. and 3' square would be about $468 + 8% Wa. taxes. With my engine cost, that puts you close to a running motor. I am not sure of exact weight, this is just an estimation.
For some reason I thought you were in Oregon and we could have worked something out.
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O.O Ok screw that. lol Thanks anyways. I could have used that block/crank. I have heads and everything else.
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O.O Ok screw that. lol Thanks anyways. I could have used that block/crank. I have heads and everything else.
I would have said something similar.
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Post warnings? Wow I need to get moving on this car. :)
I don't like using spacers/adaptors but for now I ordered 5.5 to 4.5 adaptors to use some 17" Mazda wheels I had kicking around. I put one of the rims where it'll go and it made a huge difference to the look of the car.
I have a little offset question for you guys.
The Mazda offset is 52.5mm.
Suzuki offset is 25mm (need to verify)
Spacer is 31.7mm
52.5 - 31.7 = 20.8mm
So does that mean 25 - 20.8 = 4.2mm difference? Should be. If it's 4.2mm less offset then that means the Mazda wheels stick out 4.2mm more right?
The Mazda tire's sidewall doesn't stick out past the rim lip like the x-90s did. It looks like it's tucked more but I think it's actually 4.2mm out. I'll throw up some before/after pics in the next few days.
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Here it in on a 2~3" drop with the 17s.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2pt2n1u.jpg)
Original wheels at stock ride height.
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2wq8htc.jpg)
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My cell only shows the before picture... Annoying!
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My cell only shows the before picture... Annoying!
Weird. The pic I took of the 17s is smaller then the other so that's not it. The day after I put these wheels on, my friend calls me and says he's got a set of 17" Motegi with tires for $100 >.< At least the bolt pattern is the same. I'll be looking at those later today.
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Incase anyone wants to know... The '98 Sidekick's evaporator box and evaporator fit the X-90. All the electrical connectors are in the X-90's wiring harness too. :)
I wanted AC in my X-90 so I grabbed the evap box from the '98 Sidekick at the junkyard today. I figured if I'm going to have the dash apart I might as well put AC in it. Turns out it's a very easy thing to add AC to these cars. I bet the compressor on the v6 is going to be oversized for the evaporator. I'll have to charge the system with gauges and watch the pressures to figure out the correct capacity of freon to put in it. It's going to get cold quick that's for sure. Just in time for winter? o.O
I love how interchangeable these things are.
I just scored a '99 Tracker for free that runs great. I also have an '02 4-door ZR-2 v6 Tracker as my daily driver. If anyone remembers, I just put a used engine in it last winter. What I intend to do is pull the ECU, wiring harness, and engine from the '99 and put it in the '02. Since it's just a daily driver the 4 cylinder will be fine. The '99 is automatic so I'll have to use that transmission. Alot of work but this frees up that v6 to be used in the X-90. :D Saves me $1000 and get's this project moving.
(Why does this forum freak out when I type? It keeps scrolling up?) >.<
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Nice. :) A lot of work but it should be fun when finished.
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I finished everything on the AC but mounting the compressor. The '98 Sidekick's condenser, fan, lines, and accumulator all fit the X-90 like a glove. Wiring is done too.
As far as the engine swap...
I measured from the bellhousing/block line to the radiator on the X-90 and it's 23". I then measured my '02 v6 Tracker and it's also 23". It looks like the Trackers firewall is farther back. From the v6 waterpump shaft to the radiator is 6" or more. I shouldn't have any issues with engine compartment depth. The X-90 looks narrower but there seems to be plenty of room. Good thing I kept the old Tracker engine. It will come in handy for test fitting and mock-ups.
I'm still undecided if I want to go with single or twin turbos. Those little IHI VJ-11s would be perfect for a twin setup but man is plumbing twins going to be a pain in the ass. If I do go with twins, and the stock v6 intake clears the X-90 hood, I'd like to make dual throttle bodies on the stock intake. It would be nice if it's symetrical enough to rotate it 180 and face the TBs forward. If not I don't see dual TBs being easy without a custom intake.
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I'm stoked now. I just found out the stock 2.5L manifolds (intake and exhaust) can be bolted on backwards. I'm not great at drawing, so pardon my doodles, but here is a drawing of how the turbos would be placed -if- I can manage to find a matched set from a Nissan Z or something. If not I'll use VJ-11s but it won't look as symetrical. I'll be using 2 throttle bodies in place of the factory throttlebody section.
2 smaller turbos will be easier to place in the little X-90 then one large one. 1/2 of the 2.5L is only 1250cc so each turbo can use only 1.5" tubing for the IC lines. That's much easier to route in small spaces.
Here's a pic of the intake and an exhaust manifolds bolted on backwards. I'll use the stock exhaust manifolds and put turbo flanges on them. The engine parts are from my blown Tracker v6 and are coming in handy.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/rrkz8o.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/eq9vfs.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/20gznrb.jpg)
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I found some nice throttle bodies at the junkyard today. They are off 2 Hyundai Accents. There's no BS on them like IAC motors. Just a spring and a TPS. Not very large bore either which is what I want. Reason is that is if the TB needs to flow say 400cfm and you use an 800cfm TB then all your throttle control is from 0-50% pedal. It gets too touchy.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2cqd5qw.jpg)
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Isn't that just pretty? >:D
One bolt will line up and the other two will use two nuts to hold a spacer to the mani and two studs to hold the TB to the spacer. 3/8" aluminum plate should do. Either that or cut off the mani flange and weld on another but I like the bolt-on option better. To couple the TBs, I'll use a shaft like a motorcycle type carb setup with the adjuster to sync the position.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/30cq1rl.jpg)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/bfgppw.jpg)
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Tricky. :)
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I found some turbos. A matched set of water cooled T25s from a Nissan 300ZX. I know those guys can manage 16psi out of these on a 3L engine so 15psi on a 2.5L should be a calk walk and still have decent spool.
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More mock-ups and measurements.
Here's what I was intending on doing with the manifolds but, due to the location of the accessories, I can't just weld on an elbow to the stock exhaust manifolds. So, I have two options. Cap the outlet and make a hole between 1&3 (and 2&4) and weld on flanges making a "log-style" manifold or just make DIY 3 into 1 shorty tubular turbo headers. I could use the factory head flanges and weld els or stainless tubing to make them. Eventually that time will come. :)
As far as the intake, I might have to relocate the engine oil fill. No biggie. I also need to have 2 phenolic spacers made to raise the manifold .25" to clear the pass side valve cover. It -just- hits it. I could get away with grinding off some metal but the spacers will help keep the manifold cooler. That's all that would be required to make it bolt on.
From the crank line to the top of the manifold is about 18 5/8". Depending on how low the engine can mount in the x-90, I may need to either mod the oil pan or make my own intake so I'm not diving into intake mods quite yet until I have the longblock in the car. Personally I think some home made intalke manifolds would look tits.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/x3uyad.jpg)
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On BRD HNTR's rig we had to modify the oil pan to get around the front diff. I think we just hit it with a large rubber hammer...
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On BRD HNTR's rig we had to modify the oil pan to get around the front diff. I think we just hit it with a large rubber hammer...
pics pics pics!
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He starts working on the conversion at this link (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/tracker-2x4-rockers-frnt-bmper-4-dr-sprngs-lwered-frnt-diff-$30-steel-frnt-diff/msg217720/#msg217720) but the pictures you probably want to see from under the rig are over at this link (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/tracker-2x4-rockers-frnt-bmper-4-dr-sprngs-lwered-frnt-diff-$30-steel-frnt-diff/90/)
We are using a 2.7L with the 5 speed transmission and a Grand Vitara headers and transfer case. The Grand Vit has smaller pre-cats and gave us more room for the exhaust. Looking through the notes it looks like the issue we had was with the corner of the pan hitting the cross-member, we ended up just smacking in that one corner for clearance to make sure it wouldn't rub.
BRD HNTR is in Montana right now, but he should be back at the end of the month and would be more then happy to answer questions. Or if you PM me I can send you his email address.
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I found a link to the pile-o-pics in one of the posts.
http://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/TrackerEngineSwap?gsessionid=BAJbAHd3mr82psT0rbVq-A# (http://picasaweb.google.com/105298426119042245963/TrackerEngineSwap?gsessionid=BAJbAHd3mr82psT0rbVq-A#)
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I'm going to try and keep all my updates in this thread. Here's what's going on... The '99 Tracker I junked had a good engine and it's too much trouble to swap the 2.0L into my '02 v6 Tracker (to get the v6 for my X-90) -BUT- I just happened to come across a '00 Tracker 2.0L with a blown engine. That works out great. I'll toss the '99s 2.0L into the '00 and sell it to buy another v6. :D
Heads up. Anyone interested in a '00 2.0L 4dr 4x4 Tracker with power everything? 125k on the engine. It's blue with aluminum wheels. I have to replace the running boards (rusted) but otherwise looks like it's a nice truck from the photos I recieved. Maybe $2000-$2500ish
Also selling my black '02 ZR-2 2.5L 4dr 4x4 Tracker also with power everything. 125k miles on the truck. Used engine had 85k when it was put in this spring. The tailgate was dented though. New tires, new battery. $3750 on that one.
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I'll check around. :)
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Thanks.
Price update. $1500 for the '00 running and driving. I'll do the engine swap but I don't have time to do body work with so many other projects going. Truck has 180k, engine has 125k, power windows, power locks, a/c, tilt, cruise, keyless entry. Would make a nice truck with a little TLC. It's definitly not a basket case. :D
(http://i52.tinypic.com/16h7sih.jpg)
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These things are such a pain in the ass to work on. >.< I suckered my friend into helping. :)
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Just means you need to bring more beer. :D
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Motor in. Runs great. Have someone coming tomorrow for $1500. :) -crosses fingers-
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The Tracker sold the other day so I've been gathering goodies for the build like SS braided turbo oil lines, fittings, flanges and yes, cheap ebay blow-off valves! I'd NEVER use a knock-off diaphragm style BOVs but I'll be using 2 RFL piston style BOVs. Hard for even China to screw those up.
You'll see this car and say "WTF" then you'll hear this car with twin RFLs and say "WTF" again.
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That thing is going to be insane. Possibly in a good way.
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Maybe too insane. The X-90 isn't exactly known for it's handling. :laugh:
The rear end in that car is LOOSE. The connection to the chassis isn't loose. It's the connection to the road. Too much unsprung weight maybe. If I hit a bump with one rear wheel it tends to toss the car sideways. I think that a-arm shit they used back there is acting like a lever and kicking the car sideways. I may replace the "pipe" that goes between the frame rails (that holds the rear a-arm) and make a new one similar to the 99+ which uses two control arms on top and added a panhard bar. My '02 Tracker doesn't kick around like the X-90 does. I may look into IRS options like a Ford Thunderbird rear and stick the whole subframe in the X-90. Having a frame makes it's easy to fab mounts to do a swap like that. I'd imagine the biggest issue is finding a matching gear ratio.
That's neither here nor there at this point in time. My main focus is getting the v6 into the car with GV AWD working. I'll run it NA awhile just and see how things go. Once everything is working I'll start mocking up the turbo manifolds and IC plumbing but still stay NA. I'd like to bide my time and see if another v6 pops up. That way I can build the engine on the bench and still enjoy driving the car. I -could- leave the turbos on the stock engine and do some light tuning while the other engine gets built. If anything good comes from that it'll be the ability to tell you guys how much boost a stock H25A can take before it breaks rods. lol
Someone REALLY needs to fix this scrolling bug these forums have. SMF SUCKS! You really need to switch over to phpBB or vBulletin.
Anyways... Who's got cheap 4.30s for me?! ;D
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This is the IRS used in the new Camaro. I'd try and find something compact like that. Because of the X-90s lack of a strut tower, it would be hard to mock up a macpherson strut type IRS that's common in other RWD cars.
Also check out the link to what this person did with a T-bird IRS. Easy to build the T-bird setup into just about anything. http://www.primequip.net/products/Project_427/rear_end.htm (http://www.primequip.net/products/Project_427/rear_end.htm)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2692327844_28332fb8f9.jpg?v=0)
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IRS would be interesting.
Another thing you can do is extend the lower links. I did that on Project Trouble and it made a HUGE difference in how the rear end soaked up bumps. We extended the lower links to 32", just cut the frame side mounts off and slid them forward.
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Started tinkering on the front end today. Trying to see how I want to run the IC pipes. For starters, I ditched the clutch fan and put a 14" electric puller on it. I then removed the AC fan from the front and wired the new fan to the AC system. It seems the AC circuit has it's own temp sensor so if the engine overheats it kicks off the comperssor clutch and turns on the aux electric fan. I'll be making my own fan circuit and wiring it to the factory temp sensor (for the gauge) and use that to trigger the AC fan relay which is now the main fan. I would use the AC sensor but normally when the fan turned on the clutch goes off. Now that I think about it I can just ground the AC temp sensor wire so the AC system thinks everything is fine and dandy and use that AC sensor for my trigger circuit.
Did any of that make sense? o.o
With the AC fan removed, if I cut out the "center core support" (w/e it's called) I can stick a fairly large IC in there. There's no easy way to take advantage of the scoop on the bottom of the front bumper to push air into an IC. The IC needs to be larger then I can fit down there. So, I will try to seal off the area behind the bumper so that all the air coming in the grill and the scoop has no where to go but through the IC, condensor, and radiator.
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Nice to see you back on the ZW boards. (I would suggest that you have Eric move this thread to the Build diaries, cause this is going to be an interesting Build thread, and there are more Turbo savvy members paying attention to that section.)
Drone did say that I had modified the oil pan for clearance - actually I cut wedges out of the corners for clearance on the cross-frame, and differential (and I have a lowered differential). I cut wedges out and bent the pan together on both corners (so it would warp and have leaking issues). (I suggest cutting the wedges out as needed and then plating across to eliminate/lessen warping and oil leakage issues.) Even with the oil pan modifications I can not fully close my hood. The front intake cross tube hits. You may have some issues with the TBI's clearance, unless doing some hood modifications. (When I can find time and space I have modifications in mind that will eliminate these clearance problems for me, but would not fit in with your lowered vehicle desires.)
I am willing to give you what information I have gained from my swap, and photos for clarification. Just let me know if I can help - Your solutions may solve my problems.
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Ah there you are. The v6 in the X-90 might not be that tight. Maybe there's more room then the Sidekick? I laid a board from the back hood seal to the radiator and measured from there to the frame (below the engine). I then measured from the 2.5's map sensor (highest point) to the bottom of the girdle and I have 5.5" left for a pan. I need to grab the pan from storage and see how deep it is. If I recall it's a 2pc pan. Half is aluminum, that bolts to the block girdle, and then a small steel sump attaches to that... right? If I made any modifications, I'd cut the bottom out of the steel sump and extend it out in any direction I could to maintain oil capacity. I have a sheet metal buddy with a tig who helps me out with the custom stuff.
I might whip up another intake just for show but I do like the long runners of the OEM. It'll help a little with the low end torque until the turbos spool. I'm also taking out the stock steering box and putting in a Tracker rack and pinion. I'm stuck on finding a left front mount for the front diff hanger. I need to locate a junk frame to salvage one from then weld it to my frame rail.
The sump would look like this... And also a pic of the T51 version of the H2xA engine. Looks sexy. They made their own pan for it. That reduction drive is also a nice piece of craftsmanship. Why would they go through that effort without knowing this engine had great reliability? I have high hopes for it.
(http://www.protegegarage.com/img/p/395-350-thickbox.jpg)
(http://www.titanaircraft.com/pictures/c922378f6bdcab2865569d18a3e9755b.jpg)
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I was just looking at a X-90, I don't think there is more room.
Looks like they made a one piece pan for the T51. Nice looking sump in the photo. For me the clearance was back drivers side cross member, and front right side on the diff. There is room to go outward on drivers side, except back corner. If you change shape of oil pans to provide needed clearance then you could have the room to drop the motor the inch that I need. (send me one.) Also you will need room to remove the oil filter.
As you have to build your own motor mounts, make up the diff mount at same time. Both me and Muskegtracker had tight clearance between the alternator and the right side frame diff mount.
Hood clearance issues were on the front intake cross tube. If you turn the manifold around and put smaller TBI's on the ends, are you then going to cap off the the original TBI spot, or run a smaller cross-tube?
My low end torque is great. Doesn't take a lot of throttle to break my tires loose, and 100 has lots of throttle left.
I used 2003 precats & exhaust headers, as they were smaller than the 2005 ones. As you were planning on a stand alone computer system, you could put the cat under the car, if you install one.
I put a 4 link in the rear end, and it does improve the handling. Still with the power I have it likes to jump right out there. If yours spools up fast, it could get away easily.
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The manifold will be flipped 180. The balance tube (small one in front) will then be at the rear giving me MUCH more firewall clearance. I can probably move the engine back quite a bit because of that. The larger crossover tube, (that the stock TB bolts to) will be removed and two throttle bodies put in its place. Those TBs face the front of the car. Did you see the pic of that mock-up? It will be OBD-2 using a factory v6 ecu from -something- with a piggy-back FIC for boost engine management. The FIC can clamp the factory sensors (maf/map/o2/etc.) so the stock ecu thinks everything is fine and dandy while the FIC is in control of fuel and ignition under boost conditions.
It will be AWD so hopefully it'll stick. It'll really suck to loose this thing. It's not drift friendly. It's hard to hold a drift even in snow. It's to short. The EVO 10 500hp guys are already saying they won't race it. :( They say it's too light and will be too fast. I can only hope. >:D
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It will be AWD so hopefully it'll stick. It'll really suck to loose this thing. It's not drift friendly. It's hard to hold a drift even in snow. It's to short. The EVO 10 500hp guys are already saying they won't race it. :( They say it's too light and will be too fast. I can only hope. >:D
That is reason enough to try ??? I have watched the Subaru vids, and it is impressive what they can do. Not sure of HP, but when you can easily light them up. it is more controlable. It will take lots of practice. I am still learning to control the impulses.
Running AWD, with an Auto? Or did you get the 2.5 with a 5 speed? So far I have only seen one 2.7 with the 5 speed, but it means they did make them.
The sump would look like this... And also a pic of the T51 version of the H2xA engine. Looks sexy. They made their own pan for it. That reduction drive is also a nice piece of craftsmanship. Why would they go through that effort without knowing this engine had great reliability? I have high hopes for it.
The weight per/hp is very good, and that is considering the 2.5. The 2.7 should be much better. I was talking to one of the 2.5 converters, and he didn't know they had a 2.7 version.
You know the Aerio 2.0 puts out 155 stock (30 less than the 2.7) and it is a much easier fit, especially if you have some of the parts off the Tracker 2.0. Depending on the boost it would also make your X-90 fly.
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I'm staying with the 2.5L for a few reasons. It's a v6. Although 2.5L is small, it's that much more impressive to be stuffed into a little car. The sound. v6's have a smoother purr to them. The Suzuki v6 has so much going for it in terms of strength. Forged internals, closed deck, 2pc block, huge head ports considering it's only 416cc a cylinder. Also the 2.5 should have a little more meat in the cylinder walls because all they did was bore it to get a 2.7L.
If I went with a 4cyl it would be a Nissan SR20DET or Mazda BPT. In all honesty I don't have much faith in Suzuki. I've see far to many scattered around junkyards in the 100-150k mile range. I wouldn't waste my time trying to make power with one of their 4 bangers.
If Mazda had an AWD 5-speed drivetrain that would fit in this car, it'd already be in there. This Suzuki stuff is costing me a fortune. Feels like I'm moding an Audi with the cost of parts. :o
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My blow-off valves just showed up. These things are HUGE! :o :o :o I planed on a quiet exhaust system so yeh, your definitly going to here this thing has turbos. mmm..... PHAAAAA!!! mmm..... PHAAAAA!!! :laugh:
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Have you started fitting that turbo yet?
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No I'm still gathering parts and fiddling around with it. I cut out the bumper and got a Supra intercooler for free and trying to find rims because my adaptors don't work with the drive flanges are installed. :( Other then that I'm kinda screwed finding a singlemode transfer case because the canadian seller won't get off his #u(king a$$ and take a picture of the case for me to verify it's single mode and I'm not dropping 250+260 shipping for the wrong part.
I've also been tied up with this damn Nissan I picked up. It's a 2000 SR20DE Sentra SE with 88k on the clock and turbocharged. I sold my ZR2 for $3500 and nabbed the Nissan for $1500 because it had a knock. I tossed a bearing in it to get me by for now until I can build another engine. I'll still have a daily driver (alot faster then a Tracker) and another $2g towards my X-90 project. It's a very nice looking car otherwise. Win-win except for the fact that too many "mechanics" have had there hands in it. Everything I find wrong with this car is wrong because someone did it wrong. On the other hand I didn't exactly need another turbo import project. lol It's distracting me from making real power in the X-90. :D
We have been refering to the Nissan as the "tuner casserole" because there's so much shit thrown into it and it still sucks. I hate casseroles! >.<
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I better post to keep this thread alive. :)
The only thing I've managed to accomplish are the turbo rebuilds and the dxf drawings of the turbo flanges to be jetted out of 3/8" plate. My mock-up block is still sitting in my frozen garage. I didn't even get the heads out for flow testing. I've just been swamped with work and it's too cold to work in the garage when I do have time. Damn you winter!
I did finally find a good deal on a building to get the shop going so look forward to alot of progress this spring. ;D