ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: sionshards18 on December 06, 2010, 09:12:30 AM
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Should I just get a new 1.6 16v engine for my 97 4 door kick or should I just save up and get the v6 swap done at liberty overland?????? I'm running 29"s and its slow, I want mine on 31"s to 33"s. Should I get a new engine with less miles or the v6???????
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Not going to turn 33s without gears or more torque, a new 16V engine
won't be much better than what you have now
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My 16v has 187,XXX miles and you can tell its starting to tire, so I'm really debating if I should just save up and do the v6 to make it drive easier, but I'm 20 and that's a big chunk of change, lol. What about the vw tdi conversion, anyone have success in there sidekick?
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Paying for the V6 conversion makes it a lot easier. Having dropped another 16v in my Tracker I will admit that I constantly wish I had put a V6 in when I had the chance.
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Which would be better, v6 or a 1.9tdi out of a vw? It has to be able to do daily driving but also be able and play in the mountains =) I live in portland so acme adapters isn't far from me but liberty overland is just an hour south to do the v6........so hard to choose. Anyone like the tdi???????
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Hahahahaha, ACME quoted me 12k if I were to drop off my truck and they do the conversion, I'm probably gonna do the v6 then, I don't have the time or tools to swap out engines and wire it all up, lol. 6k sounds much better
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I can't believe I didn't post this the first time, but a 16V is prime
to add a turbo, and that will pull 33s and not cost nearly as much
as either engine swap.
Sounds like I need to start manufacturing turbo headers and related goodies
Wild
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Will an auto 4 speed hold the power or get ripped to shreds? That's my only issue, if I had a 5 speed I wouldn't hessitate at all, but if you build I will buy, but I need to know if an auto tranny will hold up to the added stress. Transmission cooler would be a must but.........any thoughts on that?
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I'm not sure of the torque ratings of the 4 speed trans, I know the
3 speed is rated at about 250 ft lbs, but the 4 speed is a Toyota corp
made trans, and I have not heard of power related issues, most issues
are service (or lack of) issues but total failures are not common.
A trans cooler is a good idea, as is a high quality ATF and regular service
at about every 50K miles, so adding a drain plug and a spin on filter would
be a smart idea, most people don't change the ATF because it's simply a
pain to do, ATF in your arm pits etc :P
Wild
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So, Wild, about this making the turbo manifold thing.......... ;) Just "might" convince me to do something other than the TD swap...
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You should definately hook me up with a prototype for the auto transmission ;) I would love to have it be a turbo'd mud beast
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v6, hands down!!
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I can't believe I didn't post this the first time, but a 16V is prime
to add a turbo, and that will pull 33s and not cost nearly as much
as either engine swap.
Sounds like I need to start manufacturing turbo headers and related goodies
Wild
I too would be interested in said turbo!! please keep me updated as to "IF" you are willing to make and a price of course.
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So dificult to choose, I like turbos, but a v6 sounds soooo much more fortified of an engine. Ok, I've also been looking at stuff to build up my sidekick, anyone like the rear mini spool from trail tuff? Its only $109 and this thing is my daily driver, does it work good? I'm on 29"s now but plan to run 31"s down the road, does their mini spool hold up well?
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Turbo?????? i'm in how much
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Hahaha, boosted zukis making a mess in the mud ;)
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I like turbos, but a v6 sounds soooo much more fortified of an engine.
Well, I dunno, the rocket blast sound of a turbo exhaust can be pretty impressive too.
The one thing I noticed is the 1.6 has a longer stroke than the V6, and I wondered if
that contributes to a better torque under boost, I know Mike Hagen wanted to see
Eric and I do a drag race just to see who had more grunt, the outcome was undecided
as to who would be in front, he thought the power was that close.
On the down side, a turbo motor will most likely not run as many miles as a V6, just
from the fact that in a V6 you spread around the engine wear to more parts under
less stress that the equivalent power in a 4 cylinder
Wild
As far as cost of the headers, I don't know, seems like they were around $350-400
last time I got a cost together, and I think that was for stainless steel, regular steel
is much cheeper
Wild
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I like turbos, but a v6 sounds soooo much more fortified of an engine.
Well, I dunno, the rocket blast sound of a turbo exhaust can be pretty impressive too.
The one thing I noticed is the 1.6 has a longer stroke than the V6, and I wondered if
that contributes to a better torque under boost, I know Mike Hagen wanted to see
Eric and I do a drag race just to see who had more grunt, the outcome was undecided
as to who would be in front, he thought the power was that close.
On the down side, a turbo motor will most likely not run as many miles as a V6, just
from the fact that in a V6 you spread around the engine wear to more parts under
less stress that the equivalent power in a 4 cylinder
Wild
As far as cost of the headers, I don't know, seems like they were around $350-400
last time I got a cost together, and I think that was for stainless steel, regular steel
is much cheeper
Wild
What? I don't recall racing...
I would though; how about first to 100mph?
:)
-Eric
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Hahaha, us boys and our.....zuks, lol. That's not bad for exhaust, what turbo do you use? How well would it work on an obd 2 setup? Mine is a 97 so computers are annoying
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The turbo that I had last was from a mid 80s Subaru 1.8L
turbo wagon, those are non intercooled and boost was
set at about 7PSI, pretty good for a stock set of pistons
Wild
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What? I don't recall racing...
I would though; how about first to 100mph?
:)
-Eric
Well Eric, go run a 1/4 mile, I hit 93 MPH lets see what the V6 does,
That should settle the match ;)
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Can I see pics under your hood and build up if you have some? I grew up a honda kid so I know them snails are awesome and can do a lot with minimal boost
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Gotta pretty complete write up on doing a 16V turbo in the " How To " forum, under " how to turbocharge a 16v. " Lots of pictures and detailed info. I am also now running alcohol/water injection with my turbo and it makes great power even lower in the rev range with an adjustable boost controller. Much easier and cheaper than the v6 swap, unless your able to do the swap yourself. The whole thing, if your a decent wrench and can bolt it up and do a bit of welding can be done for under 2k, and I mean WELL done. Very reliable and more power everywhere, decent fuel milage too, average 20+ running all the trail gear and 32X11.50"s.
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Someone feel like building me a setup for turbo? Bentparts- what nissan v6 did you get injectors out of? I can run those stock and have a few more ponies can't I? Have you put in any cams to see if it helps at all?
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bigger injectors without more air is not going to help, never changed cams. Unless it's a pretty radical cam, all it would do is change where the power is. I wanted my motor to run like a good stock motor when not on boost. That's why I left the pistons stock ( good compression and power off boost) and cam alone. Maybe a cam for a bit more low end would be nice though.
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Well injectors with cam, intake and exhaust would be a good combo right? Man, someone needs to start pumping out turbo kits for these bad boys, all of us want them and bad, lol
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I'm about to start building 16V turbo headers, I was checking to see what they
would cost to assemble, the only problem I have is the turbo flange, and what
bolt pattern it should be, what turbocharger is most common to put on these
engines?
Headers would be made of stainless steel, Sch40 with thick head side flange, at least
3/8" thick
Starting these at $300
Hit me with orders I'll ship out in 2 weeks
Wild
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Ahhhhh! I'm buying a lower mileage engine next month! I won't be able to buy a manifold till arround fall :/ but what's a good turbo? I see a lot of people with saab turbos, but what's the subaru one you use?
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The turbos I have used were first one from a Mazda 1.6L engine, I could
swear it was an MX3 Turbo, but I can't find a turbo model in the info searches.
It boosted to 9PSI and was a good match for the engine size, hitting about 5 PSI
in about 25-30 feet on the street, so lag was never an issue, but it blew in Moab
from a defective oil pump blow off valve, so the next turbo I got was from the
Subaru, an early to mid 80s era IHI off of a turbo wagon, that one boosted to 7 PSI
and was also a good match also.
The question I have is what is everyone else that is running a turbo using? what works
well for others? what will be easily available and not overly expensive
Wild
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Most of the ones I see online are saab because the spool quick and boost low psi, but there are tons of options. Ill half to ask my honda and subaru buddies what would be good, they know more about turbos and fins, psi, blow off valves and all the other goodies. Man, if I only I had the money id buy the manifold off of you asap, lol
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Wild, any chance of a kit for the 8v? Suzi stuff around is SUPER scarce!!! My 8v still runs decently.
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I did the 8V, as far as I know, I was the first to turbo an 8V if
not a Sidekick, I never saw one before I did mine.
That being said, the 8V was a total nightmare to do, the problem
is the TBI, there is just not enough fuel available with that system,
the only thing I found to make it run right was to buy and build a
MegaSquirt EFI system and add 4 extra injectors to the existing TBI
manifold, running the MegaSquirt as a piggy back system.
There is lots to do an 8V, so I said I would never recommend an 8V
be turbocharged, however, if it were really wanted, a custom intake
with multiport injection, but running the stock TBI computer, problem
here is the cost of the system and it would be for "offroad use only"
as there would be little chance of passing visual on an emissions check
Personally I think going to a 16V head would be faster, and with a little
extra work changing out the turbo parts to stock parts for a bi-annual
emissions check would be doable compared to the custom stuff.
Let me know what you think?
Wild
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Oh, joy. ANOTHER case of Pandoras' box here, huh? I understand the limitations of the tbi set-up, so no big surprise there. I was hoping NOT to have to throw too much $$$ at a little dinky motor that will end up getting swapped out in the late spring/early summer IF I couldn't get it to "wake up" for a little bit of effort. Yeah, I know, turbo set-ups ain't exactly cheap, but consdiering that I am starting work at the biggest, local "you strip it" after the first of the year, it was worth a thought, I guess. I have only seen 2 Trackers in the yards around here in the last 8 years :o andBOTH of them are currently being stripped down by me. Oh, well. Back to the Turbo Deisel swap, then. ;D
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Dang Wild! I would have had you build mine for that much! ;D Getting everything to fit around the air conditioning was the big issue for me. Would have been MUCH easier to build a manifold without that stuff to work around.
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Bentparts, you still have the ac??????? Id love to keep mine while I turbo mine, where is your intercooler at? I was thinking of making a hood scoop like sti's with the intercooler underneath the scoop =D
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why no love for the 2.0 or 2.3L family? seems like a perfect match for a Sammy or kick for that matter pretty easy conversion to boot.
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Why cant you just put the 16V intake on the 8V? I've never looked at em so I'm sure there is probably a difference.
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If it were only that easy, they are quite different, but I was looking into
adding a set of injectors to the 8V manifold, as it turns out the TBI injector
is a low ohm, which is to say it draws a large electrical load, I think the stock
computer can be used to drive 2 large or 4 smaller injectors, either 2 x 50-60
PPH or 4 x 24-27 PPH injectors, the only question would be if the computer
can cut the fueling enough to not run pig rich at off boost conditions like idle
Rhinoman, do you know what the tolerance range is on the TBI computer?
The stock injector is aprox 47 PPH and my calculations call for about 100 PPH
to fuel enough at boost of up to around 10 PSI and not lean out, I would
say a max of 8 PSI should be a max boost on stock pistons, 5 is OK, over that
for extended periods is not a good idea, but would be probably OK with a water
injection system to cool the pistons
Wild
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Interesting. I would think that an 8V would be more boost friendly, but I can see the lean/rich dilemna.
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The problem is not the valving, but in the injection system, the 8V injection
system has only one injector, with a flow rate of 46 pounds per hour (PPH)
of fuel, this is fine for making 80 HP or even 90 HP, but not double the normal
HP this engine came with, at a minimum to double the HP you need to double
the fuel flow rate, so you need aprox 100-110 PPH of fuel.
Problem is there is no replacement injectors that can do this, at least none that
I have been able to find, I took my injector in to have it re-flowed but before I
was able to leave they stopped me and said they didn't have a fixture to even
test the flow with, so I went home with my injector in hand.
I considered dual TBIs to feed the beast, but in the end I stumbled on the
Megasquirt EFI system, so I bought and built that, which worked quite well
Most people would say just double the PSI of the fuel system, but that does
not work in reality like you think it would, if takes 4 times the pressure to
double the fuel flow, and at about 80 PSI the TBI injector cannot overcome
the pressure and will not open
Wild
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Yay for 16v! Lol, can't wait to turbo mine! I need cash tho :/
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Wild, I was wondering and since you have experience I thought you would know. I read about a that kept his 1.3L with no internal mods. and put a 16v head on it and ran a rather large turbo (meaning i didnt think it needed to be that big of turbo) and his dyno says he is getting like 247hp to the crank and around 25psi of boost? Does that sound right? he stated that he kept the 1.3 cause it spun faster?
If something like this would work I would be interested in doing this mod.
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Sure, it can be done, but 25 PSI boost on stock internals is going to
grenade sometime, depending on how he drives it.
Stock pistons should only be boosted to 5 PSI or they run the risk
of melting from the heat, and to run 25 PSI he would almost have
to be running Alcohol for fuel, there isn't enough octane in anything
other than racing gas at $7 / gal to boost that high without knock
at a stock Compression Ratio (CR)
5 PSI is good for about 50% increase in power, more than enough
to make almost any Samurai driver happy, and the 1.3L for high RPM
ehhh.. whatever a 1.6 can hit 7000 RPM how high do you want to
spin that engine???
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I was also thinking about boosting the 1.3. It would be cool.
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That's opening up a whole new set of problems that I just
sort of figured out with the FI 1.6 8V, the 1.3 without FI is
going to need a pressure box around the carb or to have FI
installed onto the truck, the easiest way to turbo a Samurai
is to swap in an FI 16V engine, and add a turbo from there
I have a Port Injection manifold design that will work for the
8V engines, and retain the stock computer, but I don't know
how rich it might run, as the injector sizes need to be figured
out, at present I think a 1.3 engine would run well with 17-20
PPH injectors, and a 1.6 should run well with a 21-24 PPH set
but driving and tuning have not been done, I ran the stock
EFI system and supplemented the boosted conditions with
a MegaSquirt that drive the additional 4 injectors but only at
boost of about 2 PSI thru the peak of 8 PSI
Wild
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Sure, it can be done, but 25 PSI boost on stock internals is going to
grenade sometime, depending on how he drives it.
Stock pistons should only be boosted to 5 PSI or they run the risk
of melting from the heat, and to run 25 PSI he would almost have
to be running Alcohol for fuel, there isn't enough octane in anything
other than racing gas at $7 / gal to boost that high without knock
at a stock Compression Ratio (CR)
5 PSI is good for about 50% increase in power, more than enough
to make almost any Samurai driver happy, and the 1.3L for high RPM
ehhh.. whatever a 1.6 can hit 7000 RPM how high do you want to
spin that engine???
Thanks for the input!! I did not want to spin the engine fast, it was a comment the guy made is why he stayed with the 1.3? Your recomendation for 5lbs of boost is just about what I was thinking, my number was around 7. But if I could get a 50% gain I think I would be happy with that.
So having the 16v head should take care of your concerns of FI and the injectors dont you think?
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What are you building? what year is it?
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Wildgoody, I have a BUNCH of 19 lb/hr Bosch style injectors. I can send you some of them if you think that they might be worth messing with for for new setup. They are older Fords, High impedence models.
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Those would work for a boosted 1.3 Samurai, if anyone
has an FI Sammy and want's to add a turbo setup
I could use those to add port injection to a standard Samurai
manifold, but you would be a test vehicle that needs to be
tweeked and driven to see how the new setup works
Wild
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Well, I thought that I would offer them. If you still want them for a project PM me with your addy, and I will get them out to you. I guess that I need to go bug the Mushtang guys about some 24 lb/hr models then... for a 1.6.
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I added 4 more injectors from a Ford Escort, I think they
were 14 PPH, those added with the stock TBI injector
makes a flow of 25.5-26 PPH, which was not quite enough
fuel at 8 PSI boost at 6000 RPM, the engine ran like a raped
ape, but the mixture meter showed a little lean and I had
the injector cycle set to 100% at that point.
In my opinion a set of 27s would be the smallest, and probably
should be increased to 30s just to run them at lower than 100%
duty cycle. I later added a set of brown top 36 PPH
Ford injectors from a turbo T-bird, actually from an XR4T-i but
the same engine, those with the TBI actually way over fueled
the engine, making it hard to tune, they were low-Z injectors
If you get any injectors it is best to be of the high-Z flavor, so as
to not draw too much power through the FETs in the injection
computer.
Food for thought
Wild
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What are you building? what year is it?
Its an 87 N/A Sammy?
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Ya, you need either to add a FI system or build a carb pressure
box to enclose the boost with the carb and keep the float bowl
pressurized, otherwise the boost will blow the fuel back down the
jets and into the bowl, causing lean running and blown motor
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I can't believe I didn't post this the first time, but a 16V is prime
to add a turbo, and that will pull 33s and not cost nearly as much
as either engine swap.
Sounds like I need to start manufacturing turbo headers and related goodies
Wild
Wild,
I thought about doing it myself but my health won't allow it. If you could do one out
Mild steel and affordable, I would be interested.
Thanks,
Kevin
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I am thinking of swapping my engine with a bigger one but is it advisable. I am thinking of going for a turbo charged one. Need help from techies.
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I am thinking of swapping my engine with a bigger one but is it advisable. I am thinking of going for a turbo charged one. Need help from techies.
bigger than what? we need to know if you currently have a 1.3 gas or maybe a 671 blown nitro-methane 454? is it in a Suzuki or a 33 ford roadster maybe? :P a bit more key info necessary. ;)
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Wild,
I thought about doing it myself but my health won't allow it. If you could do one out
Mild steel and affordable, I would be interested.
Thanks,
Kevin
I answered this in another post on a different forum, but I would not do mild steel,
and for not much more stainless is the best, no flaking problems
heavy quality all professionally TIG welded about $250-300
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Wild,
That is reasonable to say the least, it seems you did respond to a post I put up
Elsewhere. It looks as if I have MS so least I have an excuse for being senile! Lol!
I want the turbo header you are graciously willing to build for a great price but I'm broke
And need to generate the dough.
What could I sell my complete front drive system from a '96 tracker? It has new unit
Bearings/seals, manual hubs, shafts with nice boots and joints, center section with 5.12 sport
third member, a/arms. What should I ask for this? I would like to save it because it is 26 spline
But I need more power!
I personally have a rebuilt garret T-2 that was setup for a 1.6 liter engine. That flange would be good
If I upgrade to a T25 or T28 and with adapter I could do a T-3.(on the big side)
Thanks for any help! I would love to buy your turbo header!
I'm running 235 tires and would like to go up to 30/9.50 tires so I would think it would still be economical.
Thanks,
Kevin
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OK, so I have read thru this a little bit. Considering a FI setup on my 1.6 16v. I am pretty knowlegble about FI seeing as how I built a Rear mount on my 2002 Chevy 2500HD 496. Ok, got a few questions. How much boost will the stock injectors handle? If upgraded injectors, does the ECM need to be tuned? Did you vent the crack case anyway? What size turbo?? I know my 8.1L (496) turns a 76mm over real easy, but that ALOT of cubes on it. I know MUCH MUCH smaller is needed but IDK how much smaller. I think you said 5* retard in the time? What else is require to keep from blowing or melting anything. I guess a whole new WIDE open exaust would help the turbo breath. Mine is a 5spd, I guess a BOV would be wise to run. What size intercooled is good to run. Or could we keep a LOW boost NON intercooled? OR non intercooled with METH injection would be sweet...hmm. Ideas ideas...
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Just about any turbo from a stock 1.6 to 2.0 engine will do a good
job, keep the boost at 5 or so or you run the risk of melting pistons,
and what ever size intercooler you can fit will be better than none at
all, but the bigger the better for cooling, lag isn't going to be an issue.
Yes a BOV would be good to have if you want to keep the boost up
during shifts, and a 2.5" exhaust is a good fit under the truck and
flows good for a turbo setup
Wild
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It's all been done before with regards to 16v turbo, with plenty of testing and road time to say it's a proven system. All of your questions can be answered by searching in the build forum for how to turbo charge a 16v. I run ( and have been for a few years now ) a air to liquid intercooled alcohol/water injected turbo 16v. Works great. Let wild build your manifold for you, save you tons of time and headache.
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Like I said, I have experience. I have NO PROBLEM building the manifold. But I just need other info.
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Well then, instead of asking a hundred questions in one post try doing the research and use the search function.
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:laugh:
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Well then, instead of asking a hundred questions in one post try doing the research and use the search function.
OK, just type in TURBO on this serarch feature. You get about 25 threads, mostly all people ASKING about turbos. Type in INJECTOR TUNE, you get NOTHING> Type in CRANK CASE VENT, you get NOTHING. Here I am in a topic where people are asking turbo related questions. I thought since I couldnt find any info, I would ASK. THAT is the reasons these forums are created. And does about 10 question really come out to a 100 in your head. I guess they need to hide these REPLY and NEW TOPIC buttons from everyone except people like you! Hell If I will ask anything else.
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The thread that bentparts was probably referring to is his 16v build over at:
http://zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/how-to-turbocharge-a-16v-trackick/ (http://zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/how-to-turbocharge-a-16v-trackick/)
or Wildgoody's 8vavle thread:
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/project-turbo-sidekick/ (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/project-turbo-sidekick/)
Which pretty much links over to Wild's page at:
http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods/ (http://wildcatent.freeyellow.com/zookmods/)
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Well then, instead of asking a hundred questions in one post try doing the research and use the search function.
OK, just type in TURBO on this serarch feature. You get about 25 threads, mostly all people ASKING about turbos. Type in INJECTOR TUNE, you get NOTHING> Type in CRANK CASE VENT, you get NOTHING. Here I am in a topic where people are asking turbo related questions. I thought since I couldnt find any info, I would ASK. THAT is the reasons these forums are created. And does about 10 question really come out to a 100 in your head. I guess they need to hide these REPLY and NEW TOPIC buttons from everyone except people like you! Hell If I will ask anything else.
OK, OK, don't get yer panties in a wad. Really, there were no informational threads about doing the turbo? The reason I get a bit twisted about this subject is so many people ASK for all the info, how did you do this, how did you build that, how much to make me one? Both Wild and I did detailed writeups with pictures to help people do this. Nobody can seem to find them? So now I just tell 'em hey , do what we did, get some books, go online, study and do your research. The answers are all out there. Or in here. Sorry if I upset you. BTW, did you try " turbocharged 16v" in your search?
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alright, sorry to get pissed. I used to run a different forum and I just cant stand when someone is jumped for asking a question.
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No problem ender06, I'm apparently getting ornery in my old age. Now as far as your questions, Stock ECU can handle up to about 6lbs ok, I use bigger 210cc injectors out of a Nissan Pathfinder. For crankcase venting I just run the manifold air re circ heating tube to a catch can. Timing retard varies, I run 2 degrees retard. 2.5" exhaust , no cat, turbo muffler. ALC/H20 injection set to come in at 3lbs. Small Turbo, I use an IHI RHB5 out of a Ford Probe, Mazda 6, Suburu. Any small turbo out of a vehicle with an engine 1.6 to 2 ltr should work.
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thank you sir! thats what I needed
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I want this forum to do everything for me, and then drive me around when it's done.
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I want this forum to do everything for me, and then drive me around when it's done.
Yeah, and PAY me too! :P
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I want this forum to do everything for me, and then drive me around when it's done.
Yeah, and PAY me too! :P
:P