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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: taaaaaapis on January 03, 2011, 09:35:25 AM
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Hi
I had some welding done on my 89 sidekick by a friend. after i left his place i drove home (2miles) and shut down the truck. Next morning the car refuse to start and haven't started since then. Friend told me he didn't unplugged the battery while welding.
Here is some info...
CEL turns on with ignition
engine cranks but wouldn't start
there is fire at the spark plug (kinda yellow instead of blue)
my coil, wires,spark plugs, distrib.cap and rotor have been change last fall
fuel gets to the carburetor.
questions...
Is there any relation between the welding (without battery unplugged) and the problems i am facing?
should i try to replace to my ecu module?
could the problem be in the distributor?
any other thoughts?
Thank you
Den
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What sort of welding was done? If it was gas (oxy/acetlyene) there's no cause/effect relationship.
For electric welding, there are different trains of thought on this - old school stick (arc) welders will always tell you to disconnect the battery before doing any welding, but the younger generation using wire feed welders may disagree - personally (and I'm not a welder, I'm more of an electronics person), I'll disconnect the battery - takes just a minute or two and I like to play it safe.
I know some of the US market Samurais had a feed back carburettor with an ECU, but I don't think the SideKicks used it - I believe those were either TBI (throttle body injection) on the 8V or MPI (multi port injection) on the 16V - so don't take anything I say as gospel.
Can you see fuel spraying from the throttle body when you crank it? Try pouring a cap full of fuel down the throttle body and see if it'll fire.
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Maybe a bad coil? Since you say a yellow spark instead of blue.
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thanks for your answers
yes i can see the fuel spraying from the throttle body.
and the coil is brand new last week.
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and it was electric welding (wire feed welding)
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How does the spark look on center wire going to distributor cap?
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Do forgive me ;) but back in my youth ;), in the days of kettering ignition systems, there was a condenser (capacitor to you)across the breaker contact points - a weak yellow spark pointed to a defective condenser.
I believe that capacitor is still there, but masquerading as a noise filter and taped into the harness, somewhere near the ignition coil.
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I think that any type of electrical welding should have the battery disconnected. If the ground wasn't tight enough or was too far away, you should always try to have the ground relatively close, the welder current may have tried to find a different path and messed up something electronic. I too am an electronic tech and fix ECMs and understand their sensitivity. It may not be true in your case but seems a little more than a coincidence that this problem started after the welding. See if someone has an ECM you can swap in to eliminate it. Jim
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i have an '89 kick and have done a fair amount of welding on it with a wire feed welder.
if it has the stock carb, it's a feedback carb.
if you can see it squirt gas, then it should at least "pop".
i would suspect some ignition problem- mabe test that coil?
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i have an '89 kick and have done a fair amount of welding on it with a wire feed welder.
if it has the stock carb, it's a feedback carb.
if you can see it squirt gas, then it should at least "pop".
i would suspect some ignition problem- mabe test that coil?
That's where my uncertainty lies - when I look at the parts manuals, the 89 is shown as having TBI - not a carburettor, but I agree, if you can see it squirt/spray gas, then it should fire - so the weak spark is where I would focus.
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I think more times than not I think the welding were the culprit the effect would have been immediate and it would never have started once. If you have fire and fuel and air it should start or at least hit. I would shoot a little starting fluid in the carb just for kicks and see what happens. Good luck. c
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CEL indicates some malfunction.
codes can be read by sticking a fuse in the diagnostic slot on the fuse block.
also a bunch of tests for checking all the components are in the fsm.
still, i'd a thunk it'd pop if it had spark/fuel.
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That's where my uncertainty lies - when I look at the parts manuals, the 89 is shown as having TBI - not a carburettor, but I agree, if you can see it squirt/spray gas, then it should fire - so the weak spark is where I would focus.
The 1.3 has a carb.
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That's where my uncertainty lies - when I look at the parts manuals, the 89 is shown as having TBI - not a carburettor, but I agree, if you can see it squirt/spray gas, then it should fire - so the weak spark is where I would focus.
The 1.3 has a carb.
Yep, & if he has that early version, he also has the rare 5.625 diff gears & a pretty rare Kick in general!
(Provided ofc someone didn't alter it since '89.)
taaaaaapis, is it carb or is it TBI?? (or is it memorex...) ;D
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Do forgive me ;) but back in my youth ;), in the days of kettering ignition systems, there was a condenser (capacitor to you)across the breaker contact points - a weak yellow spark pointed to a defective condenser.
I believe that capacitor is still there, but masquerading as a noise filter and taped into the harness, somewhere near the ignition coil.
That is over by the wiper motor. Ground is to the firewall.
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Ok updates...
i've swap the coil for one comeng from a running sidekick, nothing changed
i found a new ignitor (the little black thing screwed with the coil on the firewall) changed it still doesnt run
since i had a doubt about the injector, i've changed it. nothing happen
the gaz is getting to the injector and carb but doesnt seems to reach the spark plugs, the carb is full of gas but the spark plugs are staying dry....
still searching for an answer...
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Sounds like to me the injector isn't firing. Swap the ECM.
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Ok updates...
i've swap the coil for one comeng from a running sidekick, nothing changed
i found a new ignitor (the little black thing screwed with the coil on the firewall) changed it still doesnt run
since i had a doubt about the injector, i've changed it. nothing happen
the gaz is getting to the injector and carb but doesnt seems to reach the spark plugs, the carb is full of gas but the spark plugs are staying dry....
still searching for an answer...
It's EITHER carbed OR injected - one OR the other - NOT BOTH.
If you've changed the injector - then what part of the TBI can you describe as the "carb is full of gas"? And if there is a carb with a float bowl that IS full of gas, then what "injector" did you change, and what did you see spraying fuel?
The quality of the help you get is going to be determined by the quality of the information you provide.
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x2 on fordem's post. But it's terminology, he has injector & is calling the throttle body (TB) 'carb'.
But he gives another clue: Gas in TB but dry plugs... fuzzys fuzzy brain thinks: his cams not turning.
Pull the distributor cap & turn the engine over; Is the rotor turning? If not, you broke the timing belt.
Hth,
Fuzz
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The quality of the help you get is going to be determined by the quality of the information you provide.
ok
since english is not my first language so i would try to explain myself better...
My kick is a 1.6l TBI, i can actually see the injector sprayin gas into the throttle body
i have made a swap of the injector since i have another kick motor in the garage.
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Pull the distributor cap & turn the engine over; Is the [distributor] rotor turning? If not, you broke the timing belt.
Hth,
Fuzz
Check this next. If the rotor isn't turning, your timing belt has broken. If it is, inspect the cap & rotor for wear or cracks, or just replace them if you haven't recently... standard tuneup stuff. Can be a lot of other things, but this is where I'd look next.
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Any update, Taaaaaapis? Good, bad, somewhere in the middle?
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I'm going to guess a bad ECM ...
I had a rig do as you described, running fine, went to start it the next day, wouldn't start. I happened to have a parts rig (same engine/tranny) so swapped ECM's ... started right up.
Ever since that day I've always contemplated carrying a spare ECM when wheeling. It would have REALLY sucked had that happened on a trail.
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I'm going to guess a bad ECM ...
I had a rig do as you described, running fine, went to start it the next day, wouldn't start. I happened to have a parts rig (same engine/tranny) so swapped ECM's ... started right up.
Ever since that day I've always contemplated carrying a spare ECM when wheeling. It would have REALLY sucked had that happened on a trail.
swapping ECM is gonna be my next try...
Other observations made: after trying to start the car i checked the spark plug one by one. cylinder 1 and 2 , spark plugs were completely dry. Cylinder 4 and 5 spark plugs were soaked with gas...
the rotor is turning when engine is cranking...
fire on plug 1 and 2 seems way weaker than on 3 and 4
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x2 on fordem's post. But it's terminology, he has injector & is calling the throttle body (TB) 'carb'.
But he gives another clue: Gas in TB but dry plugs... fuzzys fuzzy brain thinks: his cams not turning.
Pull the distributor cap & turn the engine over; Is the rotor turning? If not, you broke the timing belt.
Hth,
Fuzz
Thank you Fuzzy!!!
Following the clues you left me, i removed the timing belt cover to find out that about 1/4 of the teeth on the timing belt are missing! i've ordered a new one today gonna try that this week end.
thanks for everybody who helped
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x2 on fordem's post. But it's terminology, he has injector & is calling the throttle body (TB) 'carb'.
But he gives another clue: Gas in TB but dry plugs... fuzzys fuzzy brain thinks: his cams not turning.
Pull the distributor cap & turn the engine over; Is the rotor turning? If not, you broke the timing belt.
Hth,
Fuzz
Thank you Fuzzy!!!
Following the clues you left me, i removed the timing belt cover to find out that about 1/4 of the teeth on the timing belt are missing! i've ordered a new one today gonna try that this week end.
thanks for everybody who helped
:) You're welcome! "I love it when a plan comes together."
There's a good guide for t-belt swap on kick-fix.com here:
http://www.kick-fix.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html (http://www.kick-fix.com/t-belt/tbelt8v.html)
Fuzz
PS: *Begs for a Technical Prestige point* "I feel left out." :D