ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Model Specific Suzuki Forum => Suzuki Samurai (All SJ Platform) 1981-1998 => Topic started by: Bradshaw on January 23, 2011, 07:27:05 AM
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Hey folks,
I've started assembling parts for a 4x4. I'm aiming for the highest mpg's as possible, yet keep a dependable 4x4 drivetrain, with the look of a classic Model A Truck.
I've got an 86 Samurai for the 5speed trans, transfer case, axles, master cylinder, and other parts as needed.
I have an early 1990's Geo Metro 1.0 L throttle body fuel injected engine with complete wiring harness.
Already checked and 1.0 Metro engine bolts right up to the sami 5 speed.
It seems the Samurai's weigh somewhere between 2000-2100 lbs empty. The Geo Metros between 1600-1700 lbs.
I've been reading and trying to decide about gearing and tire size. I plan on using 19" wire wheels because there is a wider source of tires available for the vintage look. Plan on using 700-R19 tires which are listed as 32.2" tall. Trying to decide which gear to run. I know the 1.0 metro engine doesn't have the power that the 1.3 has, but I plan on keeping the weight around 1600 lbs, so the engine thinks its right at home in a metro. I've run the calculations on the metro engine and drivetrain and compared to samurai(overdrive, t-case, axle ratio) with the 32.2" tires. 4.30 gears are 50rpm's higher for 55mph than stock metro setup. 4.62 gears are about 250rpm's higher than stock metro setup.
I've searched on here and read folks recommending the lower gears for more power due to weight of tires and wheels, and loosing power on hills. Can anyone give me some real world tire and wheel weights, your axle ratio's, rpm at 55 mp, and your satisfaction with the power you have for highway cruising. Thanks, Bradshaw
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try plugging your values into this gear calculator:
http://www.acksfaq.com/gearcalc-01-04-07.php (http://www.acksfaq.com/gearcalc-01-04-07.php)
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Thanks for the link to the calculator. It confirmed the same values I had worked out in a spreadsheet.
My hope is that tall but narrow tires(less rolling mass) along with less overall vehicle weight will keep the truck moving at highway speeds with the 3cylinder suzuki g10 engine.
Those engines were high 40's-50 mpgs in the front wheel drive metro's. I know I won't get that kind of mileage, but hoping for anything above 40mpg, still have power to pass someone on the road, and keep the look I want.
Thanks,
Bradshaw
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Thanks for the link to the calculator. It confirmed the same values I had worked out in a spreadsheet.
My hope is that tall but narrow tires(less rolling mass) along with less overall vehicle weight will keep the truck moving at highway speeds with the 3cylinder suzuki g10 engine.
Those engines were high 40's-50 mpgs in the front wheel drive metro's. I know I won't get that kind of mileage, but hoping for anything above 40mpg, still have power to pass someone on the road, and keep the look I want.
Thanks,
Bradshaw
I am very interested in this project as I have been putting together a Model A with Suzuki power myself. Please keep us up to date with the build and the mileage you get at the end... I'm betting you won't touch 20 mpg but I would love to be suprised.
-Eric
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pictures we love pictures!
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Hey didnt the Chevy Sprint have a 3cyl turbo engine for a few years that is the same as a Geo Metro engine ? If I remember right they put out more horsepower than a 1300.
Ed
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Not a lot more power, the 1.3 Turbo was rated at 80hp compared to the stock 1.3L of 65. It is supposed to push over 90lb's of torque though. :)
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Eric, please share more about your estimate of low mpg's. I don't need to re-invent the wheel here if I can change something early in the game. What year/body you working with on Model A? What engine,gears, tires, etc...? Thanks Bradshaw
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Not a lot more power, the 1.3 Turbo was rated at 80hp compared to the stock 1.3L of 65. It is supposed to push over 90lb's of torque though. :)
just to clarify the sprint/firefly used a 1.0L turbo not 1.3L
i owned one and a geo with the N/A 1.0L and drove a 1.3L swift for work.
N/A 1.0L-55hp
turbo 1.0L-70hp, (play with the timing and wastegate and it will do 100) (107ft/lbs of torque stock)
N/A 1.3L-80hp
that being said, the turbo 1.0L will leave the 1.3 in the dust. just way more power, it had a ton of torque for a little motor.
id be saying it will probably be pushing 30mpg between the added drivetrain and the very very unarodynamic body
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Need more information on 1.0 Turbo's!
Can I use my 1.0L N/A and add the turbo, exhaust manifold, wastegate, intake, etc... without upgrading anything else(internals, engine computer)?
I'd really aprecciate any additional information on the turbo 1.0L engines you have.
It would appear if I could make this upgrade work, maybe I'd have a shot at a cool, peppy, 4x4, with decent mileage.
I'm thinking of a 32 style rounded grill, may go fenderless, fiberglass parts, smooth hood, etc... to help with aerodynamics.
In 1931 the Model A truck had a "deluxe" pickup option, which was more like a smooth fleetside than the true stepside like the regular pickups. They still had running boards and rear fenders, but definitely more aerodynamic than the stepsides. From what I know they are/were rare. Still with enough photos, its possible to emulate one for looks and hopefully cruise with less drag.
Hopefully attached is a borrowed photo of a 31 Deluxe Pickup.
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turbo motors are a canada only option. might be able to find one someone imported though.
it used a different fuel injuection system with different intake manifold. top mounted intercooler, and different engine control computer and wiring harness.
block internals were identical, head was the same, oil pan had extra bung for oil drain from turbo. if you want any more info on them or building a turbo engine from a n/a one check out teamswift.net they have TONS of info on these engines.
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Not a lot more power, the 1.3 Turbo was rated at 80hp compared to the stock 1.3L of 65. It is supposed to push over 90lb's of torque though. :)
just to clarify the sprint/firefly used a 1.0L turbo not 1.3L
i owned one and a geo with the N/A 1.0L and drove a 1.3L swift for work.
Yea, mistype on my end. Sorry about that. :)
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turbo motors are a canada only option. might be able to find one someone imported though.
it used a different fuel injuection system with different intake manifold. top mounted intercooler, and different engine control computer and wiring harness.
block internals were identical, head was the same, oil pan had extra bung for oil drain from turbo. if you want any more info on them or building a turbo engine from a n/a one check out teamswift.net they have TONS of info on these engines.
Are you sure about the head? The way I recall it, the G10T had multipoint fuel injection, so the head would have needed the holes for the injectors.
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it had mpfi if it was a 89-91, if you want simplier you can get the 87-88 mk1 turbo intake which is still carbed.
head had nothing to do with the fuel injection, it was all the intake manifold.
i had one for a year before selling it for my kick. i still wish i didnt sell it some days. usually until i drive the kick again.
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Have you considered a vw diesel conversion? Might get 35-40 mpg in that light of rig.
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I don't think the mileage will be there like your thinking. While the 1.3 engine will get high 30's and even an occasional 40 in the Geo Metro/Swift, once you put it into a box it'll get 20 maybe 23 or so... That's exactly what happens when it's installed in a Samurai which is a box... right? Add taller tires and you're probably in the teens for fuel economy. :)
Here's an old vid of a Model 'A' type vehicle with some interesting drivetrain. Maybe this is more of what you're looking for?
Fastest 1929 Ford Model "A" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSGSL3Nrmc#)
Here's the place that did it http://www.mat.fi/n_index.php? (http://www.mat.fi/n_index.php?)
-Eric
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So here is an Idea....
My older brother has a nearly complete '31 Model A two-door (bodywork is short but it has a complete drivetrain).
I have a '96 Tracker 4x4 16v 1.6 automatic - rode hard and put away wet by my son.
One wonders what a rebuilt engine/transmission would do for it - or should we stick to the existing drivetrain since it is there and in good condition (especially the engine!)?
I - apparently - am the motorhead of the family. I am puzzled as to why my bro has been sitting on this vehicle for 25 years...
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That is an interesting video of the Distinguished Gentleman(Model A with the souped up racing Engine).
I almost gave up on this project but have decided to give it a go.
Currently parting out the 86 Suzuki Samurai and hope to get the axles out soon. Already pulled 5 speed, t-case and driveshafts.
If I can figure out how to add a photo, I will post some pics of the Model A Chassis. Have a little frame straightening to do. I can tell you however, for a 1929 Frame, bone stock with only a brake cross-shaft and two engine mounts, it comes in at 119lbs. I will keep you all posted of progress and the weight of parts as the project moves along.
I do have a Technical Question with regard to the front samurai axles.
I'm not sure of the part name so I hope I can describe it correctly.
The Model A Frame is longer than the samurai and the axle will actually be fully forward of the engine.
I hope to use the stock suzuki steering box but place it behind the axle.
To accomplish this I was hoping to be able to switch the driver and passenger side(piece where the steering linkage connects to) from each wheel when I go into the axle to check bearings, re-pack them with grease, etc...
So, can these parts be swapped between passenger and driver's side to put the full steering linkage behind the axle?
Thanks for your Help, Bradshaw
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I have a friend with a 1962 ford pickup that switched the spindles and it really messed up his ackerman and would not track down the road straight.
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That's a good point. I believe the aftermarket steering kit to get the drag link over the springs may be the best solution. Those bolt on steering arms look like they may be interchangeable, front to back with where they bolt up.
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That would probably work. You might try calling Sky Manufacturing, if they don't work out of the box they might be able to come up with something for you.
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Thanks for the lead. I will follow up with them. Take a look at the picture of the sami with a factory Model A 21" wheel bolted to the rear axle. ;D
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are they the same pattern?
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Yes sir, they are the same bolt pattern 5 x 5.5". The model a rims are unique however in that they fit over a beveled hub. I have it bolted to the rear axle. The stock Model A Rims wont fit over the 4x4 locking hubs on the front axle. Later model Ford 16" wire rims should fit as they have a larger opening in the center of the wheel. I found some modern built 19" wire wheels that are made with a flat mount on the rear side like other modern wheels. Also made to run Radial tires molded in older "model A era" styles and sizes.
I wont be using these stock rims, but just wanted to see that it fit like it was supposed to before moving to the next step.
Can anyone tell me if it is a common practice to replace bearings and seals in the rear axles and if so, where I can find a kit?
I see numerous Front Axle kits at all the Samurai offroad businesses online, but have not seen anyone offering rear axle refresher kits.
Thanks for your help, Bradshaw
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What if you switched to a one-piece hub from a 99+ Tracker?
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Tell me more... Are you talking about for the front axle to possibly be able to run the stock A rims?
Can you share a photo?
Thanks, Bradshaw
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you take your stock hubs off and install a splined cap that looks like it only sticks out about an inch or so in the center and would make your front axles be locked in all the time like the newer rigs.
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They might be small enough, they are a bit smaller then the manual hubs that come stock.
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Ok, I will keep this in mind. I may still opt for the manual locking hubs so I can disengage the front axle and keep that extra mass from turning while in 2wd. Seems like those axles turning would turn the front drive shaft as well and cut into mpg's further.
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I pulled the rear axles tonight with the backing plates with the intention of converting the rear drum brakes to discs. I have found and read a set of instructions from another 4x4 website that show how to perform the conversion.
I'm just curious how many folks have done this? Are you satisfied with the home-made "kit"?
I have a small 12 ton shop press. I feel like I will be able to press on and off the rear bearings for replacement on the short shaft, but the driver's side shaft is too long to fit in the press.
These instructions say to use a cutoff grinder to cut the backing plates down to a size just large enough to cover the rear wheel bearings in the square area that mates to the rear axle tube flange. They also indicate, but do not show, that an option is to cut a section of this backing plate out between two of the studs to allow this bearing retainer to slip over the axle between the bearings and the outside flange. Has anyone done this? It sounds like you may be opening an area for mud and grime to get in. Or have I misinterpreted the set of instructions?
Thanks, Bradshaw
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on your press you should be able to lift it with 4x4 or 4x6'' pieces of wood or table top cut a hole in the table, LOL. on the disks they hang out in the open and shed dirt mud ect. or your not driving fast enough to have disk in the first place, the adapter plates that i have seen bolt to the back of the axle tube on the leaf spring side,you can buy the 410 plates to make things better also. on the bearing retainer you will have to get about ten tons on it then heat it real lightly with a small torch,when you hear a large Bang start pumping the jack handle rear fast you won't have much time.
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Thanks for the advice on the shop press. Never thought I would be putting a lift kit on the shop press. ;D
Been out of town the last half of the week for work.
Boxing plates arrived today to weld in and strengthen the Model A Frame.
I bolted the Metro 3banger to the Sami Transmission and suspended to start the mock up for motor mounts, transmission mount, t-case mount, etc...
I am going to try to keep the Stock Model A Transverse springs front and rear. Front will be easier as the springs are narrow. Rear springs are probably going to be too wide to get the spring hangers in place and still have room for the springs to flex with weight.
I have attached a few photos of the engine/trans bolted up and suspended over/between the frame rails. I'm hoping to keep the engine and transmission as far forward as possible to clear the firewall with the rear facing distributor. I may also end up splitting the Model A Wishbone like the hot rodders do and attach each split end to the frame rail.
Tomorrow I hope to get the rear bearings removed and get the backing plates trimmed down for the disc brake conversion.
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More Pics
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Last pic, metro engine with sami transmission