ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Jluck on March 15, 2011, 09:29:52 PM
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I figured I would kick off another age old debate. the forum is slow today :sleepy: so here we go..... ;D
what do you run for oil's in your rig?
is "premium" oils (amsoil,royal purple etc.) worth the coin or hype?
is heavy or light weight oil better in a modern (say over-head cam era) engine better?
what about additives? (rislon,marvel's myst. oil....)?
I definitely have my opinions and experiences but would like to hear yours. (the smarty-pants also)
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The standard rule is not to run synthetics in old engines. It will just cause all of your seals to start leaking.
As for what oil to run in your engine, check the manual. If you run to thick of an oil you risk causing damage to your motor. In the case of the newer Suzuki 4cyl engines the timing chain won't be properly lubed if you run the heavier oil. That leads to breakage and the engine blowing up.
As for additives, they can work depending on what you want them to do. My brothers 94 had an issue with a bit of smoke at startup due to the engine being old. We threw some additive in there, smoke went away, all is well. Sure it's not the best thing , but the only way to 'fix' the problem is to rebuild the engine anyway.
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The standard rule is not to run synthetics in old engines. It will just cause all of your seals to start leaking.
As for what oil to run in your engine, check the manual. If you run to thick of an oil you risk causing damage to your motor. In the case of the newer Suzuki 4cyl engines the timing chain won't be properly lubed if you run the heavier oil. That leads to breakage and the engine blowing up.
As for additives, they can work depending on what you want them to do. My brothers 94 had an issue with a bit of smoke at startup due to the engine being old. We threw some additive in there, smoke went away, all is well. Sure it's not the best thing , but the only way to 'fix' the problem is to rebuild the engine anyway.
looking for what people run in there rigs and why. I know what works for me.
thats good info about the timing chain lubrication.
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I have only been running zuks for about nine years now and the best that I have found is 10-30 mystic syn-Blend Oil,it will go fare past the 2500 mile break down point for the regular oils, I run a Larger oil filter from a ford taurus 1989 with a 3.0 napa 91516 I Think it is.(check clearance on a samurai). also I am a big believer in prolong additives, been running it for over twenty years, it is a polymere (spell check) I run their different products in the gas tank, the crank case and the trans and x-fer case, and both diffs. it takes up to two weeks to notice a difference in power and mileage and running temp. their gear oil (mystic) is one of the best that I have seen. I believe it is an oklahoman company.
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I use 5w30 Mobil 1 in all of my vehicles (6). It is the recommeded oil in my Corvette, Rather that shelf several different brands and viscosities I just keep the 1. This vehicle range embodies 3 4cyl and 3 8 cyl with 1 being and early 70's built 350.
I also run Prolong in the Samurai and the early V8 as an additive. I did small engine heat test on the Prolong by running it in a lawnmower. There was a noticable difference in the crankcase temperature at peak operating time (approxamately 2hrs.) Reduced heat = reduced friction = increased wear life.
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Mobile 1 High Mileage 10W40 in the Turbo Tracker with Lucas Oil Stabilizer. I use K+N oil filters when I can get them, or the best store filter. This engine sees redline often enough and with the turbo needing good oil I don't scrimp. Always looks good at change time too, and that can be up to 4K.
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Prepare yourself to be blown away.
If you've got the time, this will give you everything there is to know:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/ (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/)
And you thought zuki enthusiasts were an esoteric breed!
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The "weight" of the oil used should be determined by the climate in which you're operating the vehicle, so start by determining what your manufacturer recommends for your vehicle in your climate.
Here in Guyana we're see 70~90+*F year round, so I run 10W40 - currently Valvoline premium conventional - and change it every 3000 miles; transmission, transfercase & differentials is 75W90 Mobil1 synthetic. The reason I won't run a synthetic in the engine is that it's operated under what Suzuki considers "harsh environment" and the recommended change interval is 3000 miles, so I see no point in using the synthetic when I can't benefit from the extended change interval.
Oh - with regard that "not using synthetic in a high mileage engine because it causes seals to leak" - just an "old wives" tale. Back when Mobil1 first hit the market, that's what I was told by the Mobil1 rep here - back then I wasn't prepared to pay the price, but since then I have done my own tests and switched to a full synthetic oil for a year, before experimenting with varying synthetic blends, and then back to a conventional motor oil - never had any problems with leaking seals.
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Prepare yourself to be blown away.
If you've got the time, this will give you everything there is to know:
[url]http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/[/url] ([url]http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/[/url])
And you thought zuki enthusiasts were an esoteric breed!
great read beercheck thanks. I hope everyone spends the time to read it!
The "weight" of the oil used should be determined by the climate in which you're operating the vehicle, so start by determining what your manufacturer recommends for your vehicle in your climate.
Here in Guyana we're see 70~90+*F year round, so I run 10W40 - currently Valvoline premium conventional - and change it every 3000 miles; transmission, transfercase & differentials is 75W90 Mobil1 synthetic. The reason I won't run a synthetic in the engine is that it's operated under what Suzuki considers "harsh environment" and the recommended change interval is 3000 miles, so I see no point in using the synthetic when I can't benefit from the extended change interval.
Oh - with regard that "not using synthetic in a high mileage engine because it causes seals to leak" - just an "old wives" tale. Back when Mobil1 first hit the market, that's what I was told by the Mobil1 rep here - back then I wasn't prepared to pay the price, but since then I have done my own tests and switched to a full synthetic oil for a year, before experimenting with varying synthetic blends, and then back to a conventional motor oil - never had any problems with leaking seals.
true for air cooled engines.
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great read beercheck thanks. I hope everyone spends the time to read it!
Be sure to click the "Oil Forums" link (along with the others) on the left of that page. That's where the meat...and the madness...is. For example, there are guys on there that have their used oil analyzed after every change.
Honestly, I think it might be my favorite website on all of the internet. Educational, entertaining, and waaaaaay out there, man.
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that the reason I started this thread. I took a 2 day lubrication class a while back (and also thought I knew all about oil) and my jaw was on the desk most of the class. :o
I am by no means trying to convey that I'm some expert now just was blown away with the science behind oil and wanted to get people thinking. and maybe up to speed.
I was always of the old school theory, coming from a "chevy big-block or die back ground"[until I got whooped by a zuki with 31's and I had 40's on my chev] :laugh:
I always thought "heavy weight was the only way"(now that I think about it I sure went through allot of engins then) :-[
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Oh - with regard that "not using synthetic in a high mileage engine because it causes seals to leak" - just an "old wives" tale. Back when Mobil1 first hit the market, that's what I was told by the Mobil1 rep here - back then I wasn't prepared to pay the price, but since then I have done my own tests and switched to a full synthetic oil for a year, before experimenting with varying synthetic blends, and then back to a conventional motor oil - never had any problems with leaking seals.
As long as your engine is in good shape, sure. The issue is the synthetic oil can clean out all of the sludge that is keeping the seals from leaking. :)
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Whatever is on sale. 10-30 or 10-40 ;D
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I read the whole thread several years ago, don't remember all that was in there,
but I remember there was lots of good info.
Wild
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10w30 if its a newer motor and i may step up alittle if its getting older
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OK I saw this and had to throw my $.20 in (inflation you know).
For those of you that have been involved in the industry for 28 years, and can relate to my experience as a engineer and master technician, allow me to say: It has been allot of years since Ive seen a lubrication related failure....to say that the lube was actually there! If there is clean oil than there is NOT a problem. The sludge problems of the 80's are gone. There goes the brand preferences.....I used to think thicker is better, but better design is better. Oil of any viscosity holds on better now days. All manufactures are heading towards 0w20 for all models and they are even doing it for the older engine designs. Manufactures are stretching intervals to 10k miles and in some cases the PCM is deciding the oil condition based on the driving conditions that have been endured. All the new clearances are tighter and the weight of the parts is less. So what does this add up to. Well, if you run 5w20 or 5w30, which are readily available, and your engine is in good condition than you may see some more fuel economy and better lubrication. Personally, I believe that thinner oil will end up back in the pan ready for recirculation, which is where i want it when I'm at a vertical angle hill climbing.
If you leak or burn oil and it is slowed by a thicker viscosity, than you our only covering a engine wear issue, not a oil issue...
As for those that prefer additives.....Does the factory tell you that you need synthetic? They have to warranty the power train, what is there opinion? I think a more frequent oil change would be more beneficial
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OK I saw this and had to throw my $.20 in (inflation you know).
For those of you that have been involved in the industry for 28 years, and can relate to my experience as a engineer and master technician, allow me to say: It has been allot of years since Ive seen a lubrication related failure....to say that the lube was actually there! If there is clean oil than there is NOT a problem. The sludge problems of the 80's are gone. There goes the brand preferences.....<SNIP>
Meh - there must be a lot of new old stock oil here then - because I know of a very popular brand, comes in a white bottle with a green stripe, that forms sludge in a sealed bottle, sitting on the store shelf - you take the top off, start pouring it into your engine and if you watch it flow, you'll see the golden brown stream turn to black.
Let's just say I prefer not to use that brand.
As for those that prefer additives.....Does the factory tell you that you need synthetic? They have to warranty the power train, what is there opinion? I think a more frequent oil change would be more beneficial
I certainly agree with that.
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I agree with both above statements too. I use Synth because my Turbo MFG recommends it. If my motor was stock still I'd probably just use whatevers on sale like Lv2fish.
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I tend to run Shell Rotella, 10w40, as almost ALL of my engines are mech. lifter style and the Rotella provides Zinc, where as the majority of oils out there DO NOT. The Zinc is an additive that helps to reduce the metal on metal wear that you get from a NON hyd. lifter/ follower set up, along with helping the injectors wear more evenly/ longer in a Desiel engine. This includes my Cat powered Freightliner, my type 4 VW powered 'rail, my Tracker (of course) ALL of the Fords, and the lone Jeep. Something to think about, since the older Trackick motors require a periodic valve adjustment.... ever bother to look at the amount of wear or the pattern that is on the cam, rocker arms, or the followers? A wear additive will help to keep the wear down, but, not prevent it. Don't confuse the two.
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Zinc is commonly found in Diesel oil, but not in automotive oil.
I can't remember exactly, but it was about it being emissions related or
pollution in the used oil, or maybe it was just the cost as an additive as
to why zinc has been left out of auto oils.
Wild
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Wild, I believe that it has more to do with a DEcrease in friction in newer engines due to things like roller lifters/followers, better metalurgy, things like this, more than anything at least with the gas motors. When I say "newer" engines, I don't mean the last 4-5 years, but as compared to the old stuff that you and I grew up with.
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Ya, I pulled the heads off of a 3.8L Ford engine from the 90s and
found roller lifters, I was surprised because I thought those were
used in performance vehicles, not a Mercury Sable Wagon
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No Fun Fact Filled Theory's,
My Sammy has a donor engine of unknown mileage (I bought my Sammy CHEAP it had a blown engine)
It smokes a little, but then at 24 years old, its old enough to smoke!
I run Castrol 10-40 in the Summer;
10-30 in the winter
I found that the cheapy oils (especially Citgo) breakdown early!
Also I add a 1/2 quart extra when I am out Wheel'n even though Sammys have a deep sump pan already to
insure an oil supply.
Capt
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No Fun Fact Filled Theory's,
My Sammy has a donor engine of unknown mileage (I bought my Sammy CHEAP it had a blown engine)
It smokes a little, but then at 24 years old, its old enough to smoke!
I run Castrol 10-40 in the Summer;
10-30 in the winter
I found that the cheapy oils (especially Citgo) breakdown early!
Also I add a 1/2 quart extra when I am out Wheel'n even though Sammys have a deep sump pan already to
insure an oil supply.
thats a dangerous practice capt. especially in a more demanding than normal situation. can cause over-pressured crank case and blown seals. FWIW
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No Fun Fact Filled Theory's,
My Sammy has a donor engine of unknown mileage (I bought my Sammy CHEAP it had a blown engine)
It smokes a little, but then at 24 years old, its old enough to smoke!
I run Castrol 10-40 in the Summer;
10-30 in the winter
I found that the cheapy oils (especially Citgo) breakdown early!
Also I add a 1/2 quart extra when I am out Wheel'n even though Sammys have a deep sump pan already to
insure an oil supply.
thats a dangerous practice capt. especially in a more demanding than normal situation. can cause over-pressured crank case and blown seals. FWIW
I'm not going to disagree that it's a dangerous practice, but I would like to hear how it causes the crankcase to become "over-pressured" especially given the fact that the Samurai engine has what is essentially an open vent hose from the rocker cover to the air cleaner - it's hard to build pressure when you have a 1/2" vent to the atmosphere.
The reason I say it's dangerous is that if you add too much oil to the crankcase , it's possible to create a situation, especially if you're on a slope where the crank throws dip into the oil and "whip" air into it creating an oil foam - the problem that results is this foam, which is mostly air, is highly compressible and when pumped to the bearings does not lubricate well and you can end up with bearing damage and possibly a seized engine.
I'm not going to say that 1/2 a quart more will raise the level in the pan enough to cause this problem, but that it certainly increases the chance of it happening.
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Yes Crank "Hammer" will happen if you REALLY over fill an engine.
During my "Look & See" on the donor engine, My Sammy has a "Windage Tray" in the oil pan (It might have been
installed by the previous engine owner) and are used to prevent the
spinning crank from drawing oil up into the bottom of the block.
And again, I just add a 1/2 qt. as I don't want to starve and engine that only has a stock
4 1/2 qt capacity while I am running it outside what the OEM had invissioned
as Normal Usage.
CAPT
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I'm not going to disagree that it's a dangerous practice, but I would like to hear how it causes the crankcase to become "over-pressured" especially given the fact that the Samurai engine has what is essentially an open vent hose from the rocker cover to the air cleaner - it's hard to build pressure when you have a 1/2" vent to the atmosphere.
The reason I say it's dangerous is that if you add too much oil to the crankcase , it's possible to create a situation, especially if you're on a slope where the crank throws dip into the oil and "whip" air into it creating an oil foam - the problem that results is this foam, which is mostly air, is highly compressible and when pumped to the bearings does not lubricate well and you can end up with bearing damage and possibly a seized engine.
I'm not going to say that 1/2 a quart more will raise the level in the pan enough to cause this problem, but that it certainly increases the chance of it happening.
look....my point is that its a bad idea for a internal combustion engine not samurai specific! I'm not going to challenge you on theory or anything else. everybody on here knows you are the smartest Suzuki encyclopediahuman on the planet and cant wait for each stroke causing answer you provide.
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Touchy aren't you.
This is a discussion forum, and you asked for a debate - you made a statement, I'm asking for an explanation of that statement - Samurai engine or not, I don't see how overfilling the crankcase will cause it to become "over" pressured. Most engines (if not all) have some sort of crankcase ventilation system that will relieve the crankcase pressure long before the seals blow.
You either know what you're talking about or you don't - I don't know what you're talking about, and I have no problem in admitting that - so here's your chance to educate me.
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what kind of oil do you run in your zuk? whats best, WHY? thats the question. so do you a answer for the simple question?
also it's what I have been taught through life. might not be exactly correct but I do believe its a bad idea to over fill a crank case. I use the theory of parasitic loss and too much liquid in a area designed for less, is bad.
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The over filling answer is a simple, but has to be qualified one.
IF the oil is over full AND is being "Hammered" as it was put earlier,
it could potentially be whipped up into a foam that might not be
able to vent properly and could blow oil out the seals, I don't think
it could blow or pop the seals out of the engine.
I don't think an extra half quart is enough to cause a problem, and
also, I have been wheeling in hard angles and low on engine oil by
as much as a quart and have never had an oil light come on so I think
the extra oil is not necessary.
This is the problem with a turbocharger that is below the oil return,
the oil is whipped into what amounts to a dirty looking whipped cream
and then floats on top of the liquid oil, causing a backup in the turbo
that then looses oil out the seals, either the compressor or the exhaust
side and will cause smoke and oil usage.
Wild
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This is the problem with a turbocharger that is below the oil return,
the oil is whipped into what amounts to a dirty looking whipped cream
and then floats on top of the liquid oil, causing a backup in the turbo
that then looses oil out the seals, either the compressor or the exhaust
side and will cause smoke and oil usage.
Wild
Are you referring to the position of the turbo charger's oil return line relative to the "normal" oil level in the pan here?
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Yes, as well as the oil must have a downhill slope for drainage, you must
not try return the oil above the turbo such as through a hole in the valve
cover.
Bentparts got around this by using a pump to return the oil, but it adds
a level of complexity and a possible point of failure should the pump stop
Wild
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WOW!!!
I didn't want to "PISS IN YOUR POST-TOASTIES" here guys!!
I just had the habit of putting the last WHOLE Quart of oil in, instead of having all those half empty bottles hanging around,
figuring it would not hurt too have a LITTLE extra in the crankcase for when I go on.. "Oh Jesus, you MF you're gunna kill us!!"
trail rides. (Note full line is 4 1/2 quarts w/filter). Also I did mention that the "Ol Timber Cruiser" has a smoking habit too.
CAPT
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I am new to Zuks and I have a 1.3L 1987 Zuk. I changed the oil to synthetic and I have not had any issues with leaking seals at all!!!
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Oh - with regard that "not using synthetic in a high mileage engine because it causes seals to leak" - just an "old wives" tale. Back when Mobil1 first hit the market, that's what I was told by the Mobil1 rep here - back then I wasn't prepared to pay the price, but since then I have done my own tests and switched to a full synthetic oil for a year, before experimenting with varying synthetic blends, and then back to a conventional motor oil - never had any problems with leaking seals.
As long as your engine is in good shape, sure. The issue is the synthetic oil can clean out all of the sludge that is keeping the seals from leaking. :)
A high detergent will do the same thing.
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I've been looking into what kind of oil I want to run and have narrowed it down to 2 choices, Royal Purple or Redline. From what I've red of people's opinions on line both seem good and I was having a hard time finding any hard data as to which was better or what strength's/weakness each had. I talked to Steve at Performance parts in Salem, he sells both brands and his advice was Redline. His main reason for endorsing Redline over Purple was their line up of products is much larger, by having more products they can tailor each for a specific purpose. After reviewing catalogs of both manufacturers I can see Steve's point, there are 6 reline AT F's and only 1 RP ATF. Redline also has many more manual transmission oil choices and different separate gear oils as there are different metals in a transmission vs an axle housing. This all being said he still couldn't give me any specific answers as to which was better and why. Then I came across this : http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf (http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf) I know it is a bit dated and some of the oils that they review I've never even heard of but this was the only actual lab style test I could find that reviewed both Royal Purple and Redline. I thought it was interesting reading and thought that you all might like to see it as well. Right now I'm going with Royal Purple but would like to try Redline sometime in the future. If anyone who reads this has any info about these two oils I would live to hear your thoughts and experiences.
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that is a great read. It makes me feel allot better about putting 50 dollar oil changes in my rigs! truly amazing! thanks for that
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Interesting read, you can tell there from the UK using words like " whilst " but a pretty good test. We had several distributors perform similar demonstrations at our bike shop. I used RP the first couple of oil changes after doing the turbo and it is VG stuff. As often as I change oil it's just got too expensive to toss. Adding some Lucas to the lesser brands helps them perform similarly.
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Interesting read, you can tell there from the UK using words like " whilst " but a pretty good test.
Australia actually - UK prices are never quoted in dollars and the advertisments with Australian addresses are a dead give away ;)
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I stand corrected good sir.
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I always say that a good quality recommended engine oil should be used. Not a heavier or a lighter one. For proper lubrication of the engine a specific grade of engine oil is recommended in the manual.