ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: bentparts on April 28, 2011, 05:03:33 AM
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Some of you guys know I've had intermittent overheating problems with my Tracker, and lately it's been giving me fits. I've tried everything I can think of and searched every post with the word " overheating " in it and still can't get this under control. This is the situation: Trucklet is cooling just fine running down the road, normal in town, even in most stop and go type traffic. When I'm off road it's a different story. In 4wd, either low or high, the temp guage will begin to climb from just below the center where the little thermometer is, steadily upward. I always keep an Eye on it so I never let it get into the red zone.
Now I do run an electric fan, Flexalite 16", run through a switched relay. The drill usually goes, shift into 4wd, TURN ON FAN. If I forget, the temp will start to climb in just a few minutes, 15 or so. At that point just turning on the fan is not enough to cool it back down and keep it cooled. I have to stop, shut down, and let it cool awhile. If I start too soon, the temp will get hot again. This only seems to happen in 4wd off road, usually in the deep wet sand we have here in NJ, or anywhere there are long climbs.
Over the weekend on a trip to the inlaws I got stuck in stop and go traffic and it began to get hot, first time in regular traffic and 2wd. Had to stop, pull over and let it cool down, but it continued to get hot every time I drove it.
So far I've done this:
Flushed cooling system ( just before my trip out west a year and a half ago)
Replaced water pump, both belts and timing belt before same trip
Pulled and tested several thermostats for proper opening, which they did
Finally broke down and got a NEW radiator MON, installed it with the same 16" electric fan and shrouds I made up from two old stockers.
No matter how long I let it sit and idle it will not overheat, that's without the fan on. HOWEVER, no matter how long it sits and idles, getting up to running temp according to the temp guage, I CANNOT detect coolant moving across the top of the radiator tank. It just seems to sit there and slightly move around.
Do I Have a blockage in my engine water jacket? I thought about the possibility of blown head gasket but there are no signs of coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. No leaks anywhere either. Other than the getting hot when in 4wd, the thing runs GREAT with Plenty O Power.
I am so tired of this I'm ready to give up and part this thing out. I really need help with this, I'm running out of energy and will to fix this, on top of that my work has slowed to a crawl, and hours are getting cut so whatever it is better be CHEAP and involve my labor and not much else.
Sorry for such a longwinded post, but i wanted to include as much info as I could, any insight into this frustrating problem would be GREATLY appreciated. Mike :(
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Bent,
1. Does it have an auto tranny? Stop and go or offroad in sand would easily heat things up should that be the case. If so, the largest tranny cooler you could fit would help.
2. Check to make sure that the radiator hoses are not collapsing. Don't know if that is an issue on the Suzuki's but that can be a problem, especially with lower hoses. If so, get a spring to insert in hose or run a section of stainless or brass pipe where it wants to collapse.
3. Maybe pop out your freeze plugs to get an idea of what the inside of the block looks like.
4. Did you check to see if any cylinder pressure is escaping into the cooling system via cooling system pressure tester?
5. You run a turbo, right? Find out what the radiator capacity is for vehicles with same engine/turbo size (maybe a 1986 Dodge Colt turbo car). Is your current cooling capacity up to par?
I know that can be a pain sometimes. Keep with it, you will figure it out.
Dan
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I was never able to keep my engine cool with an electric fan, I always attributed
the problem to having the intercooler in front of the radiator and the fan was just
not strong enough, but now listening (reading) your woes story I think you might
just want to loose some of that HP and put on the stock fan once more, that solved
all of my overheating trouble, and I only overheated onroad and freeway driving
Nothing beats a 175 HP fan motor ;)
Wild
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In my expirience, you will not 'see' much flow...
cannot be:
rad = new
pump = new
themo = test ok
blockage in rad/block (as you cannot come to temp at idle) *VERY strange, considering rest of symptoms.
What cfm on fan? More or less than stock?
Intercooler clear?
Do you have a IR thermometer? You can point the $9,99 hf one right at the block/gooseneck; will show the moment it opens..also handy to aim at rad top and bottom, block, exhaust, etc...gauges sometimes lie.
lmk; I'll drop mine in the mail today for tomorrow...
Do you have a trans temp gauge? ( I have one for you if not)...trans cooler is cheap from j/y
referencing #4 above, I have used a kit that detects exhaust gas in coolant; a pressure tester would be a good 2nd choice to see it it is holding.
If you want to part it out, I'll give you couple hunnert.... ;)
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i had an old truck ran great stayed cool but every time you turned it off it would push all the water (like 2 gallons) out on the ground it had i blown head gasket
have you looked to see if the water pump impeller on the new pump is loose maybe slipping on the shaft?
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If you want to see flow, drain the radiator into a bucket, pull the thermostat, and put the
housing back on without it, take the top hose off the radiator, now fill the radiator with
just water, start your engine and watch for flow, the radiator should go dry in about 5 seconds
With your water to air turbo heat exchanger, or aftercooler, you are going to be putting all
of that heat from the turbo air into the coolant, that puts an additional strain on the cooling
system, as well does an auto trans with the in radiator cooler. I would put an external cooler
on that too.
How is the cooling routed in and out of the aftercooler? You might get better cooling of the
engine if the hot aftercooler water went to the radiator out to the lower hose, that would
exchange more hot for cool through the engine and not wait for the thermostat to open
Wild
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GIVE UP? PART IT OUT? ARE YOU SERIOUS MAN?
After all you have done with this rig.....you will win this fight! look at the heart ache I have pushed through.
there's only a couple things I could think of that were not already mentioned.
> is yours a A/T rig?, are the cooling lines routed through the radiator? (trans might be putting too much heat in rad)??
> you could try a radiator like drew (4.0 toy conversion) or myself are using. dont know about mine yet but his cools that big V6 no
problem (even wheeling). ;)
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/CSF/Radiator/CSF2634.html (http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/CSF/Radiator/CSF2634.html)
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If you want to see flow, drain the radiator into a bucket, pull the thermostat, and put the
housing back on without it, take the top hose off the radiator, now fill the radiator with
just water, start your engine and watch for flow, the radiator should go dry in about 5 seconds
...or just pull goroseneck/thermo and crank...it will be QUITE the flow...but I do not feel as though 'flow' is the issue; as said, turbo brings HEAT
on my Dodge CTD, I use pyrometer, boost gauge, in addition to trans temp.
get the IR and it will show you WHERE all the heat is = less guessing
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think about what fordguy79 said, I have a '04 Dakota with a 4.7l and it started overheating and i started replacing stuff and had it narrowed down to the waterpump... after putting a brand new one on the problem continued and I was ready to take a sledgehammer to the truck... turns out the replacement waterpump impeller was slipping on the shaft, returned it to the parts store and put the replacement on and now its good as new for the last 2 years....
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What ratio water to coolant are you running? Try using less coolant and more water, or stick to the minimum amount of coolant recommended for your climate. I run 15% coolant because I live in the tropics.
Also, try adding a decent water surfactant in there as well. Amsoil has one with pretty good reviews..
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rdcb.aspx (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/rdcb.aspx)
note that Amsoil does NOT recommend using the coolant boost with distilled water.. they recommend regular drinking water.
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Hey guys, thanks a bunch for all the replys. It sure is great to have people here to help. OK, to Clarify a few things:
98redkick: My Tracker is an Automatic, BUT, I have been running an extrernal trans cooler for a couple years now. 8X12 sits in front of the grill above my winch. Have always wondered if that was impeding airflow. Thought several times to bin it, reconnect the trans cooler lines back on the rad just to get it out of the way. May have to go that route. :-\
Ecoast: I do have an IR temp guage, tried to use it yesterday when testing the thermostats but it errored saying " too much temperture fluxuation." It told me to wait 30 minutes and try again. Gave up instead, I guess I'll give it another try and see if I can isolate any hotspots. I'll also try and determine if the pressure is holding, but wouldn't there be some kind of outward indication of a pressure drop? I don't have either tool, pressure tester or sniffer. I do have a full compliment of guages, including pyrometer, oil press, boost /vac. Never any indication on the pyro of excessive EGT's. Both trans and intercooler exchangers are clear. The fan is a 16" high output Flexalite, the one with the flat straight blades that is supposed to put out something like 2200 cfm. I don't know how that compares to stock. And, it does come up to normal temp at idle, just doesn't overheat sitting there now matter how long it's running. No trans temp guage. BUT, I've considered maybe my TCase is binding, causing a bunch of drag and that creates overheating. BUT then why did it do it in 2wd on the road in stop and go traffic Sun? Hmmmm ???
Mattlofbc: Never took the water pump back out to check, too much pita. I'll try the various flow tests reccomended by ecoast and wildgoody first. That would be the shit though, a bad, NEW waterpump. >:(
The turbo aftercooler draws coolant from a completely seperate tank from the rest of the cooling system, and runs to a large radiator mounted behind the bumper that acts as the heat exchanger. So it doesn't have any effect on engine cooling. Only the turbo itself is cooled with engine coolant, drawn in from the bottom hose and returned to the top hose. I think.
Fordguy: I ve thought about the blown headgasket scenerio a lot, and have checked everything I could to rule that out aside from removing the head. No leaking anywhere, no coolant in oil, no oil in coolant, no blowby or smoking of any kind, plugs look great. Last compression test was all in the high 180's and that was less than a year ago. I've been having this problem longer than that.
Wild, I have often thought that I have too much stuff in front of the radiator, Winch, winch bumper, Trans cooler 8X12., intercooler heat exchanger 8x22, in between them the AC condensor radiator. I think I can safely remove the trans cooler and hook the lines back up to the new rad. I initially put it on because I was pulling my pop-up which I've since sold. I also think I can eliminate the air to h2o turbo intercooler and related stuff including the heat exchanger ( basicilly a very large trans cooler) because ever since I started running my h2o/alcohol injection, it runs so much cooler you can actually watch the temp drop on the pyrometer every time you get on boost! I would try going back to the stock fan and shroud, but I gave away the damn thing awhile ago, and cut up the shroud to fit my electric fan. I've basicly got little to 0 funds to put into this thing now, so buying a new replacement stock fan and shroud is out. I also need two replacement drivers CV's because mine are making a bunch of noise. When it rains it pours dont it?
3stagevtec, I run the recomended mix of 50/50 distilled h20 and antifreeze. I used to run RedLine waterwetter and H2o but it got too expensive draining it out in the fall to put antifreeze in for the winter. It does freeze here.
I have lots of parts to trade, even some nice tools gathering dust if anyone has a stock fan and shroud in good usable condition, and a couple of drivers side cv's that have a little life left in them.
Thanks again guys for all the suggestions and help, and Jluck, yes your build is much more complicated than mine, and you are perserving with it. I admire you for that. Giving up and quiting is usually not a part of my nature, but this thing has really got me frustrated now. AND, I simply cannot afford a new custom radiator right now. Just not in the funding situation.
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You don't need a new custom Radiator, a $10 salvage yard fan and a $5
shroud should take care of it.
And all the stuff in front of the radiator is about what I had, and is the
problem, the stock fan will solve the problem, trust me, I been there
Wild
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I don't know why in the hell this turned my brain on in the middle of the NIGHT!!!!!
I just skimmed through your post/replies last evening, not having anything that "Modified"...... I gave it no thought.
Check to see if it is LEAN BURNING?
Your turbo is "Boosting" the problem. this is why MAYBE is great at idle, but "Spool Up" the turbo, Ta Da?
Different scenario, had same symptoms, it turned out to be a fuel supply regulator taking a S#%t.
Just a thought that woke me up! CAPT
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Thanks guys, Wild, the only yards around here that have any trackicks left have had their complete engines removed nothing left. I
ll give e'm a call today and seee if anything new came in.
Capt. The turbo really shouldn't be effecting the low speed overheating issues I'm experiencing. It's pretty rare for me to get boost going when I'm crawling through the woods at 5mph and 1500 to 2000 rpm. If fact, it runs cooler when on boost due to the h2o/alc injection. But once again, it's not a " boost/turbo" issue, Other than the related coolers in front of the rad slowing air flow. Jluck has kindly offered me a fan and shroud at the shipping cost, which is great. Except he lives in Oregon and I'm in NJ about as far away as we can be in the continental US :laugh: . I'm gonna try and find one at a yard if possible, and go back to the stock fan, As Wild said " nothing beats a 175 HP fan!"
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did you say you have a HEAT problem?
w/o a working IR thermo; it is hard to 'see' where the problem is...
If you were to put mine on the inlet and then outlet of the WP, for example, and the outlet was HIGHER, you might be able to 'see' that the impeller is slipping/incorrect...
additionally, any changes you make it would be better to know a baseline.
It may very well be as you have said before, 'all the junk' in front; too closely mounted together.
It's just hard to know w/o an accurate measurement, imho
as a comparison, you would not be out in the field doing your day gig w/a fluctuating DVM...
(digital volt meter)
as an aside, I do think the OE fan/shroud is a good idea, quieter too
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Seems to me two thing are affecting your overheating. Slow speed air moving over your rad to get rid of heat and auto trans adding heat to cooling system. Are you using your rad trans cooler or is it bypassed? If you have an extra trans cooler is it in frt of your rad? I think when you are in stop and go [same as off roading] you are not getting rid of enough heat because of fan and low speed, plus you are building heat from your auto trans [same as offroading] Maybe a stock fan might be an easy try?. Don't give up! Do something else for awhile let it sit and come back to it later. There is still stuff at Rausch Creek for us to do!
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Wildgoody's comments above sound believable.
I had similar experience with a Daewoo Damas (google it--cool van) that I converted to a factory electrical fan with radiator temp sensor. It never cooled nearly as well as the non-clutch fan. Ended up going back to the original set up about a month later.
That would be nice if that helped solve it.
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I keep hearing all this about the stock clutch fan supposedly being better. Whether or not that's true, you said this has been goof on awhile now. How long? Can you think back or look in maintenance records to narrow down the problem and when it started? For example, maybe it started running hotter when you did the electric fan?
The parts car is supposedly a 1995. No shroud left but there is a fan sitting there. Even if it's not a 95, do you think the 8v used the same fan? I'd like to help you out if you can't find any others.
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Thanks Gearjam, yeah I've had the electric fan on since shortly after my first trip to Paragon and the first really deep water I went in. After that I came home and changed to the electric fan, and as time went on, of course more and more was modified on the truck, including the addition of all the cooling stuff, external trans cooler, turbo, intercooler, and such. I honestly cant remember how long its been since I've had the stock fan in it, it's been that long. But I do remember that as soon as I put the electric fan in, the cooling issues began. I always had to remember to keep the fan on when 4 wheeling. I tried putting one of those thermostaic controls with a bypass switch on it, but it failed on me out west so I just hooked it back up to the manual switch. I tried going to a bigger 16" more powerful electric fan from the 14" I was using, but I'm now convinced the stocker is the way to go. The Electric sure makes mainenence easier, but since the timing belt and water pump have less than 10k on them, I think I'm ok there for awhile. I'm going to try again today to find another at a yard. DJ, there all the same I think, and if I can't find one where are you?
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OK, finally found a u pull it that had a Tracker with a fan, had to go to another to get the shroud! Visited a total of 3 yards to get such simple parts, but hey , they were cheap and available. In the process of moving my trans cooler to clear out the front of the grill, should be able to get it back together tomorrow. sure the hell hope this does it. Thanks again to Jluck and DJlantis for your gracious offers to set me up with the stuff I needed. Still lookin for a couple of good DS CV's though.
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No problem, always eager to help those who are helpful ;D
I'm in CA anyways, so glad you found one local!
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SO-
is it soup yet?
huh? huh? huh? :P
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Seems to be cookin' on LOW heat! Yeah! I didn't have time to go out to the woods to go trailing, but I did go to my super secret local testing spot and ran the livin piss out of it in 4 low, locked and unlocked for almost 40 minutes, then let it idle for like 25 minutes while my neighbor and I chatted, then went up and down the drive in low range again non stop, forward , reverse for another 20 minutes, temp guage didn't budge from a c hair below the little thermometer. The electrical system also seems to like it better not running some of that high draw stuff. So, I may have lost a few HP to the fan, but I've got a few to spare. Just turn up the boost a bit! ;D Now for the real test, I need to get back to the mountains. Probably not going to happen this year at the ZU, unless I get a bunch of OT between now and then to make up for all the no work days lately. Sure hope so.
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really good to hear bent. I hope it works out perfect. I still have a cv for you too if you cant find a local one.
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Glad to hear it's keeping cool ;)
Wild
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Don't suppose the electric fan was simply running backward...
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give it the real test bent. drive it out to oregon for memorial day weekend! ;) my Audikick should be done by then I hope. :)
(well done for now >:D)
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Glad to hear it's keeping cool ;)
Wild
Thanks Wild, I'm hoping you were right and this will be the end of it. My arms look like I've been playing in a barb wire fence, no wonder I decided to go with an electric fan, getting the shroud and fan back on sure is fun :P I guess now I have to be careful again going through the deep water, or maybe I should just avoid it altogether!
beercheck, I thought of that but it has always been pullin through the rad, just not enough apperently.
Jluck, Maybe I'll just come by and pick up that cv in person, probably will be there some day as my daughter is on her way back to Portland to live. I just may have to come by for a visit.
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Water would have to be half way up the door before it could be a problem,
and then once the fan clutch is cool, it will not drive the fan so no worries
Wild
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One thing I did notice is the fan always seems to be turning, even at an idle. I know it's viscous coupled, but is it supposed to be turning all the time? Really don't care as long as it stays cool. I did change the thermostat from a 160 to a 180 degree and from reading the FSM I understand the fan is supposed to engage when the air temp coming through the rad reaches 180 or so. Still, as long as it stays cool, I don't care.
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yep, they always are in motion
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I will turn, but it's not locked on to the clutch, if you slow it down
with a gloved hand (assuming it's not engaged) you could hold the
blade still while the engine runs, it's just turning as a product of it's
drive being turned, kind of like those bling bling spinner wheels
Wild
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Water would have to be half way up the door before it could be a problem,
and then once the fan clutch is cool, it will not drive the fan so no worries
Wild
Half way up the door is pretty common for a NJ forest run, they don't call these the " wetlands " for nothin' :laugh: I'll still take any opportunity to go around if available though ;)
I'm really looking forward to going out asap to give it a good, long stressful test, but so far Soooooo good! Thanks again all for your help, insights and encouragement.