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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: 1bigtracker on May 18, 2004, 08:16:07 AM

Title: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 18, 2004, 08:16:07 AM
I am really thinking about going to a soild axle after all the breakage i had last weekend(might not seem like much but its enought to piss me off).  if i do it will be a coil 4-link witha Dana 44 from a Scout ll.  i I just want all of your opinoins about this.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Cwkick on May 18, 2004, 08:56:48 AM
Four link coil with a dana 44.  Sounds like a Jeep Rubicon!  :o

Not very Zuk sounding.

In a light Zuk it should be bulletproof.

Cwkick
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Speedracer7c on May 18, 2004, 11:17:30 AM
What did you break stu?
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 18, 2004, 11:55:28 AM
pinion mount and bellhouseing
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Kreg on May 18, 2004, 02:39:11 PM
I believe if you use the scout 2 axle, you will have to swap both front and rear.

SAS kick ass for sure, but its not worth doing unless its done right. (IMHO)

So if you do go ahead and do it, make sure you take your time and do a good job.  Otherwise it may be a bitch to drive.  
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: NY_SIDEKICKER on May 18, 2004, 02:42:14 PM
ITS MOSTLY A PERSONAL PREFERENCE I WOULD SAY. BUT YOU WILL PROBABLY SINK A LOT MORE MONEY GOING THAT ROUTE THAN YOU WOULD PUTTING IN A STEEL SET UP FROM THE 99GV .......MATTY  8)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Bfunk on May 18, 2004, 03:45:08 PM
Do the 44's.  By the time you get the steel front end and then upgrade your cvs, you'll have twice as much $ in it then the 44 set up.  I am assuming that you will be doing the work yourself and that you have (or can get to) a good shop.  My .02
Brian
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: tracker8wr on May 18, 2004, 04:40:34 PM
i made a sas from a dana 35 ,off a heep, that i got from a friend. it cost me $70 in steel tubing & 1/2 plate steel and alot of time. i made a four link close to what calmini made, meaning i used the idea of the cross member. i haven't put in yet because i want to get a sammi case instead of trying to find a slip yoke eliminator. oh and those cheap King Shocks. HEY MONEY SUCKS when u don't have it.

King shocks       = $1000 set
sammi case 4:1 = $500
drive shaft front= $150
drive shaft rear = $60
steel                  = $70
misc. parts         = $150
             TOTAL   = $1930

ther is something else but i can't remeber what. Oh yea STEERING.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 18, 2004, 11:31:53 PM
Quote
ITS MOSTLY A PERSONAL PREFERENCE I WOULD SAY. BUT YOU WILL PROBABLY SINK A LOT MORE MONEY GOING THAT ROUTE THAN YOU WOULD PUTTING IN A STEEL SET UP FROM THE 99GV .......MATTY  8)

think about it like this .  this is an upgrade for the whole front end, not just the center cection. you get 3rd member, stronger axle houseing, stronger CV's, and stronger hubs.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 18, 2004, 11:35:07 PM
Quote
i made a sas from a dana 35 ,off a heep, that i got from a friend. it cost me $70 in steel tubing & 1/2 plate steel and alot of time. i made a four link close to what calmini made, meaning i used the idea of the cross member. i haven't put in yet because i want to get a sammi case instead of trying to find a slip yoke eliminator. oh and those cheap King Shocks. HEY MONEY SUCKS when u don't have it.

King shocks       = $1000 set
sammi case 4:1 = $500
drive shaft front= $150
drive shaft rear = $60
steel                  = $70
misc. parts         = $150
             TOTAL   = $1930

ther is something else but i can't remeber what. Oh yea STEERING.

it will be alot cheaper for me.  i won't be useing King shocks or a sammy case.  all i will need is gears, locker, 4 link bars, pan hard bar, coils, drive shaft, and streeing(mabey hydro?) alot cheaper than your set up.


stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: nc_zuk on May 19, 2004, 12:21:25 AM
Man, I see a Lot of "purests" in here who say no but I say it would be SWEET!! By looking at your tires You obviously have a penchant for goin big! A SAS on a kick with 44's would be one mean wheeling machine. If you have the skill why not do it!! You won't regret it and that's for sure!!!
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: tracker8wr on May 19, 2004, 02:00:41 AM
hey do you know where to find a slipyoke elminator. if so i could probly run my 32 for now with a driveshaft spacer on the front. that would kick ass.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: jagular7 on May 19, 2004, 02:15:26 AM
If you go this way, you'll need to understand that the brakes, steering, driveline, suspension will all have to be evaluated. The master cylinder may have to be upgraded to be able to handle the larger volume caliper (if there is a big difference between Suzuki's and the SAS). Steering conversion will have to tie the tie rods together. Sometimes, it's just a lot easier just to use heim joints at these are drilled straight through rather than tapered. Hydraulic is another option, but if you go full hydro, you are talking about upwards of $1000 for the pump, valve, hoses, shaft adapter, etc. You'll have to match the pulleys also on that for the pump pressure. If you go with Scout axles, you'll have to redo the caster as the stock Scout axles were 0 degrees caster. When you redo the caster you'd want to point the pinion at the t-case to eliminate any potential binding during suspension cycling. The front shaft will have to be redone to match the output yoke of the Suzuki t-case to the input yoke of the Scout axle. Then the cycling of the suspension to measure the slip necessary. Suspension, easiest to install is the leaf. There is a lot to consider.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 19, 2004, 02:44:07 AM
Are you planning to street this? Hydro is not an option for street use... its very Illegal.  ::) BTW I can promise you that you wont save $ by doing a SAS. When you build something custom from the ground up their is always lots of hidden costs. Also doing things twice... or god forbid 3 and 4 times. Ive redesigned several things on my rig 3 and 4 times until I get it right. This costs $ too. U joints, links joints, link steel, hydro, coils, shocks, ect...Hidden costs you dont think of.

On the other side of the coin if being cheap is not your goal then I say its in your personal preference. I would recomend riding or driving someones rig simmilar to what you plan to build to be sure this is what you want.  :-/

I cant think of how to word this without sounding like an jerk. Dont take it that way, its not my intention. I think its a little silly to be upset about breaking a part easily known as the kicks weakest link. There has been  multiple posts on this very subject and upgraded parts are availible. Mabey you should cool down before doing anything drastic that you cant undo.   :-/

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 19, 2004, 05:34:35 AM
well its not that i am pissed about breaking as much as i am that my rig isn't up to the goal i set for it.  i'm trying too build a super tough, light wiegh, all around good rig.  and if that means ditching the IFS than it will be gone.  and Mike i didn't take any of your comments the wrong way,  your right, i am acting a little childish.  I hope i will grow out of it in time.  and i have seen a guy with hydro steering(might not have been full hydro) and he said it was fine on the road.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mike71 on May 19, 2004, 06:23:20 AM
have u thought about SMALLER tires...yes i know u want huge tires..but if u ran like a 31 u could get away with alot more on the stock drivetrain
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: explosivo on May 19, 2004, 07:19:49 AM
I have to agree with Mike here, as when I was looking at SAS'ing my kick, the price of doing that would've been far greater than doing the steel GV housing that I plan on doing.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the cost of Heather and Nate's rig? Could give a nice comparison of the cost of SAS and GV front. :-/
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Zukipilot on May 19, 2004, 07:35:15 AM
I'm lookin at a ford 9" that a club member will GIVE me and with just rough guessing I'm thinking I will have $800-$1000 into it before it goes in to the Kick (REAR not front). So it can get expensive depending on what you want to do. And that is not even considering the time and money to fabricate new control arm mounts, spring mounts, drive shaft (if needed). Who know what I will end up having in it when it's all done :-/ Hopefully my rear shafte will hold up to the extra grab of the MTR's and I wont have to do anything.

Later,
Zig
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 19, 2004, 08:15:59 AM
well lets look at it this way,  i want to run 36/12.50s on the street.  to a unmodded calmini lift is 900+ after shiping and whatnot.  a steel front end  250 i think.  a locker 200.  and i'll need lower gears for the tires so that 600 more dollors.  sooo...

stock Calmini lift    $900+
steel front end      $250
locker                    $200
gears                    $600

total                     about 2000 bucks  

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mike71 on May 19, 2004, 08:29:13 AM
why do u WANT to run 36" tires?? if u have ur heart set on that large of a tire u pretty much already made up ur mind..SAS! BUT!!!! there are very very capable rigs on 33" tires IFS...just something to think about

sometimes it isnt how big u look sitting..its how big of a smile u have after u have just run
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 19, 2004, 08:31:11 AM
36s on the street huh. I can barely pull my Radial 35s with 5.83 gears. Dont Scout gears only go to 5.12? If so mabey Toyota axles are more up your alley?  :-/ They can run gears as low as 5.71. Thats really not low enough either. Ideally you would want 6.50. However mabey you could go with an OTT setup like heather did and run 5.12s in the scout axles.

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mike71 on May 19, 2004, 08:40:38 AM
Quote
well lets look at it this way,  i want to run 36/12.50s on the street.  to a unmodded calmini lift is 900+ after shiping and whatnot.  a steel front end  250 i think.  a locker 200.  and i'll need lower gears for the tires so that 600 more dollors.  sooo...

stock Calmini lift    $900+
steel front end      $250
locker                    $200
gears                    $600

total                     about 2000 bucks  

stu

in that 900+ though u are paying for convience..theres really not a TON of things that can spuratily go wrong..plus u have a set of instructions to fallow..if u put the SAS together and run into a problem it may take u a while to chase down..just things to think about

the day calmini makes there SAS kit is the day the bike gets left alone and the geo gets a lift =)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: tracker8wr on May 19, 2004, 09:24:00 AM
i read everything ya'll r saying and the money aspect is hard to over come, but if u crawl rocks sas is the way to go. more flex, stronger, and ah of course bigger tires. so if power is an issue get a turbo one of the guys on this forum was offering to build them for sell. if there were more lifts available for a trac/kick i don,t think many people would even consider an SAS. but to build a custum ifs lift it would cost way more with alot more geometry to figure. a local off road shop in town offered to aligen my SAS for $300 i just had to get it pretty close and they would take it from there.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 19, 2004, 09:40:17 AM
Quote
I have to agree with Mike here, as when I was looking at SAS'ing my kick, the price of doing that would've been far greater than doing the steel GV housing that I plan on doing.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the cost of Heather and Nate's rig? Could give a nice comparison of the cost of SAS and GV front. :-/


Here is a quick run down of our estimated costs.

Front:
Misc steel for cross members, t-case brackets, spring/shackle hangers, shackles, etc = ~200
Dual t-case setup 600 (OTT kicker 3) + ~200 (stock sammy case )= ~800
Calmini rock crawler gears = 1000 (kicker case)
Custom drive line w/long slip + high clearance joints = ~400
Custom front housing = ~250 Sky manufacturing
Custom front axle shafts = ~300
Double tough Birfields = ~200
Jeep Wrangler YJ 2" lift leafs = ~300
ubolts, spring plates, spring perches = ~100
long travel shocks = ~100
rear 3rd member Sidekick = ~200
lengthened break lines = ~50
Sammy sway bar and brackets = ~50
Welding wire, gas, paint, bolts other misc shop materials = ~150
2 Sammy tie rods modified for stearing = ~100
Mercedes stearing arms modified = ~50

Total ~4200 for the front leaf sprung over.

For Rear;
YJ 4" lift springs = ~300
ubolts, spring plagtes, spring perches =~100
long travel shocks = ~100
Custom drive line w/long slip + high clearance joints = ~400
lengthened break line =~25

So probably add ~1000 for doing the rear leaf sprung over

Grand total ~5200 for keeping it 'in the family' Suzuki products.

We have lots of travel, (unmeasured at the tire at this time, but 16 inches of travel at the shocks.)
Lots of clearence.  (23 inches at the lowest part of the frame)
Lots of power with the reduction in high due to the sammy case.
Lots of low range due to the rock cralwer gears.
Easily room for 36 inch tires.
20 forward gears, 4 reverse gears.
Bearly fits inside the garage (~2 inches to spare)

It could be done a little cheaper to just have a Sammy front end widened ~6 inches and 1 custom axle shaft made.

You'd still need to address strength in the front axles and birfields.  And you'd need to address the slip in the drive lines as the stock slip yokes on the stock case is probably going to be way too short to handle all of the extra travel.  (I'd ask Eric B about how he addressed his).
You could also do without all of the extra gearing options we chose to go with.  (the Sammy case solved the fixed flange issue at the t-case)

But overall I would say that this is a quick and accurate estimate of our costs.
Please note that a SAS suspension is VERY different from an IFS setup with regards to ride and capability.
Both with Pros and Cons.
~Nate

Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Bobzooki on May 19, 2004, 09:47:06 AM
Quote
Please note that a SAS suspension is VERY different from an IFS setup with regards to ride and capability.  Both with Pros and Cons.
~Nate


So, Nate, I'd say you are a PRO at this by now - can they convict you of KickSASing?  If they did, then you would be a CON...

::)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 19, 2004, 09:51:44 AM
Quote


So, Nate, I'd say you are a PRO at this by now - can they convict you of KickSASing?  If they did, then you would be a CON...

::)


Nice..... ;D

P.S.  We really like our SAS kick.  And a final comment, there is something to be said about the fact that there are plenty of Calmini 3 inch +3 inch lifted trucks around, but NONE have anything but highspeed cornering over ours.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Bobzooki on May 19, 2004, 09:56:18 AM
Quote
NONE have anything but highspeed cornering over ours.


And where I live, high speed cornering is really important!   ;)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 19, 2004, 09:58:38 AM
Quote


Nice..... ;D

P.S.  We really like our SAS kick.  And a final comment, there is something to be said about the fact that there are plenty of Calmini 3 inch +3 inch lifted trucks around, but NONE have anything but highspeed cornering over ours.


::) I disagree or I would have SASed already.

BTW... good one Bob!LOL

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 19, 2004, 09:59:37 AM
Quote


And where I live, high speed cornering is really important!   ;)

And where I live So is jumping! ;D
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 19, 2004, 10:08:01 AM
 
;D ;D ;D(I knew that'd get a rise out of you guys....) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 19, 2004, 10:15:47 AM
Quote

And where I live So is jumping! ;D


HEY, we still jump ours too!
It just jumps a lot easier now due to the soft springs!
~Nate
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 19, 2004, 10:18:25 AM
Quote


And where I live, high speed cornering is really important!   ;)


Cornering is really important for us too, our highspeed just changed to a lot slower of a highspeed.  (AKA slow)  
8)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 19, 2004, 01:44:49 PM
Quote
36s on the street huh. I can barely pull my Radial 35s with 5.83 gears. Dont Scout gears only go to 5.12? If so mabey Toyota axles are more up your alley?  :-/ They can run gears as low as 5.71. Thats really not low enough either. Ideally you would want 6.50. However mabey you could go with an OTT setup like heather did and run 5.12s in the scout axles.

Mike

i'm running 34's with 5.12's on my stick so i think 36's would be cake with some thing like 5.83's.  and the high pinion D44 only go up to 5.12's.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 19, 2004, 01:46:42 PM
and if i would have had a 4 door i would have put 2 cases in but i'm not long enought.  i am thinking about taking out my tranny and t case and putting a 2WD  tracker tranny in with a sammy case behide it.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 19, 2004, 03:56:19 PM
Quote
and if i would have had a 4 door i would have put 2 cases in but i'm not long enought.  i am thinking about taking out my tranny and t case and putting a 2WD  tracker tranny in with a sammy case behide it.

stu

I think the ott setup would actually be shorter than that. The 2wd tracker trans has a long snout on the end of it.  :-/

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: zukmon on May 19, 2004, 08:24:37 PM
I would go for it. I know that I'll get crap for saying this, but in my mind the only rig that should keep its IFS is a Hummer. I know there are alot of very capable Track/Kick, Vitaras, GVs, and XL7s, but all things bieng equal (tire size, gearing, ect.), a SAS Kick will out-wheel one with IFS. The IFS is too much of a on-road compromise, in my mind. I really like the newer 4 door Vitaras but I wouldn't buy one unless I had a SAS ready to go in it. Plus the extra width of a Dana 44 will give you more perceived axle articulation. Like I said I will get crap for saying this, but it's my opinion on IFS- I'd do the same thing to a Chevy as well.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Zukipilot on May 19, 2004, 10:25:13 PM
Hey Nate,
Would your set up handle the force of 36's without snapping axle shafts? :-/ I know a locked, geared, stock Kick shaft would never hold up to those Kind of forces. They can barely (and sometimes dont) handle 33's >:( That was thr reasoning for me staying with 33's when I bought new tires ( I have plenty of clearance for 35's)

1BigT,
There are two Jeeps in my club with 6cyl's, lifted, locked. geared and running 37's on scout D-44 axles and they break axles and U-Joints all the time. So stronger U-Joints and shafts may be needed depending on how hard you drive on the trail. The bad part is usually they are not hammering it when they break, mild hopping while in the rocks and there goes an axle :-/ I've been thinking of doing something like this with my 2wd tracker to see if I like it but I will have to do lots of research before I jump into a project that big.

Zig
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 19, 2004, 11:30:29 PM
oh i have seen one truck do a good hop and i step off the gas when that happens.  he snaped a frnt drive shaft and rotated his rear end all at once.  i am vary carefull about that.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Wildweasel on May 20, 2004, 01:51:44 AM
As far as SAS and go fast, as long as you put the right springs on it, (over 200lb coils) and run adjustable shocks,
(maybe a sway bar and quick disco's)
you could still go fast.
the problem is when you set up a rig for rockcrawling
the suspension usally isn't good for high speed.

With mine I wouldn't jump it unless I had limiting straps and
Good bumpstops or stiffer springs. But I got over that stuff years ago so I prefer to just drive over things.

Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 20, 2004, 03:46:42 AM
Quote
Hey Nate,
Would your set up handle the force of 36's without snapping axle shafts? :-/ I know a locked, geared, stock Kick shaft would never hold up to those Kind of forces. They can barely (and sometimes dont) handle 33's >:( That was thr reasoning for me staying with 33's when I bought new tires ( I have plenty of clearance for 35's)

....

Zig


To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure.  
When we went to Moab we brought 5 extra axles with the idea that the extra gears would snap axles like a toothpick.  We've got an overall crawl ratio of 179:1 with our 33s and much to our suprise we gently Moab'ed without breakage just fine.  

We've since then hit it MUCH harder here, (highspeed, highpower, bouncing, etc) closer to home and haven't snapped anything yet.

I've got a buddy who's got 35s on his stock Kick rear shafts (locked) and has been wheeling hard for a year without problems.   (He drives a YJ sprung Samura with a 1.6l, and nearly the same setup as us.)

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that these setups are on leaf springs, which allow the axle/housing to 'wrap'.  Essentially it provides some give instead of the hard and inflexiable setup a link and coil suspension would provide to the axles.

~Nate

Anybody else with experience with both types of setup want to step in here?

Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Zukipilot on May 20, 2004, 04:29:27 AM
Cool, I did not think of the spring wrap allowing some relief. I've broken 2 rears and when I did my rotation, the splines were partially twisted so I replaced them. I still think I will use Hagen's 9" plan If I break another one.
Zig
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 20, 2004, 04:39:24 AM
We've broken axles on 31s when on the coil ssuspension using a mini-spool.   We've also twisted splines, when totally open in the diff on 33s.  I would think that the coil suspension on stock axles with 35s would break axles pretty easily.

If we break axles with the 33s or even 36s on the leaf springs, we may still go down that 9" road too as I understand you can get them in 30 spline setups with 5.12s  (makes it almost too easy).

~Nate
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Zukipilot on May 20, 2004, 04:44:01 AM
 I almost forgot,  
;DSAS IS FOR GIRLS!!!!!!!!! ;D

(http://www.whitepineclub.com/members/kd7hcg/pictures/otherpics/DCP_5748.jpg)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: GRVIT on May 20, 2004, 05:04:30 AM
I say that the best is to get an Anvil and a steel third member.If you have 5,83's put 32 or 33". Or if you want not to add so much weight on the sensitive front system,make custom 16" rims with enough off set (I know someone that did this) and put 235/85/16.Its aprox 32" but half weight of a 33x12.5x15
The mods that are needed for a custom SAS kit are too much according to my opinion and the result is uncertain.The overall final cost too.
After I put the Anvil and a GV steel third member I only broke a halfshaft once(I have LSD 75% front,31x10,5x15,Detroit locker rear and 5,83s).There's nothing else that can be damaged,I believe.I hink that that tires over 33" dont help a sidekick to be competitive.the opposite.
Finally ,of course I believe that a SAS kit is the best ,and I want to put such kit on my sidekick.But I preffer to use a tested kit so I ll have to wait for the Calmini SAS kit.Till then the Anvil and a steel 3rd member is the best and cheapest solution to strengthen the front system.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mac on May 20, 2004, 05:12:46 AM
I was just thinking when I did my old coil Sammi, I used a rear sidekick diff and housing, and cut the outer ends off and used the outside housing sections from a sammi front to build my front housing, I can not remeber how long the long side of the axle is on the Sammi, but if you ran two longs you could build a housing and use exsisting Sammi axles if it was not too long and have a centered housing, The sidegears were interchangable between the front and the rear so the spline count matched the axles.

Mac

Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 20, 2004, 05:17:19 AM
Quote
I was just thinking when I did my old coil Sammi, I used a rear sidekick diff and housing, and cut the outer ends off and used the outside housing sections from a sammi front to build my front housing, I can not remeber how long the long side of the axle is on the Sammi, but if you ran two longs you could build a housing and use exsisting Sammi axles if it was not too long and have a centered housing, The sidegears were interchangable between the front and the rear so the spline count matched the axles.

Mac



We looked into doing this too...
We determined that it would be too wide, wouldn't be offset comfortably enough, and not strong enough.  But feasible.

~Nate
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 20, 2004, 11:40:38 AM
Quote
I would go for it. I know that I'll get crap for saying this, but in my mind the only rig that should keep its IFS is a Hummer. I know there are alot of very capable Track/Kick, Vitaras, GVs, and XL7s, but all things bieng equal (tire size, gearing, ect.), a SAS Kick will out-wheel one with IFS. The IFS is too much of a on-road compromise, in my mind. I really like the newer 4 door Vitaras but I wouldn't buy one unless I had a SAS ready to go in it. Plus the extra width of a Dana 44 will give you more perceived axle articulation. Like I said I will get crap for saying this, but it's my opinion on IFS- I'd do the same thing to a Chevy as well.



I cant even tell you how much I disagree. SAS is better than IFS.... Thats a blanket statement like Blondes are dumb.  If My IFS sucked so bad I would have swapped it out already. It probabally would have been easier. Yea Ive done a lot of things to it to get it to where its at but its still IFS. I still havent seen a SAS kick do anything that I couldnt do, however I can do several things that they cant...or wont. I wheel the livin crap out of my rig at least once a week. I can count how many times I broke something in the last year on one hand! I drove to moab and back again two years in a row now. I wheeled hard, never broke, and rode in comfort. I cant think of why would I want to swap this out for a straight axle. I think of it more like some people like a manual trans, some like autos... Some like ARB, some like Manual... Some like IFS some like SAS. If my car was a trailer queen and never saw pavement, it would still be IFS.  

Why do you hold the Hummer IFS to such a high standard? Ive never seen a hummer do anything remotely impressive.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: lil_Truck on May 20, 2004, 12:28:27 PM
I like my Tracker because it's IFS.  Everybody but us Track/kicks are SAS.  I show up on the trails and people think (look at the little Tracker trying to be a big guy...  You know it's only a IFS on 32's.)

Then when we get done wheeling everyones around my rig checking it out and saying (Man, when I first saw you I thoght...  but now...  WOW).  

People I wheel with ( Jeeps ) are going to 37/38" tires in hopes of out doing me.

I like the uniqueness of the Trakick as a whole.  Getting rid of the IFS and your becoming more like everyone else (Samis, Jeeps, Toyotas...)

If I had the time I'd would be doing a center mounted diff (like Mikes got) with longer shafts and better CV angles.  I even have a old rear end cut up in pieces on my work bench right now trying out the idea.  But with the move and all.  I'm going with the Anvil for a year or two and then that will be a winter project.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 20, 2004, 01:17:30 PM
i just got back from my frineds house.  he is building a few sammys and has bought a few trackers just for the rear axles and has given me most of the rest of the trackers.  and he said after he gets his axles done i can have the steel sammy carryers so it looks like its staying IFS.  but thanks to all of you who made comments about this,  I thought it was funny even though i didn't go SAS.   ;D

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: NY_SIDEKICKER on May 20, 2004, 02:43:04 PM
YES THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT POST.......LOTS OF INFO HERE......WE EVEN FOUND OUT HOW MUCH HEATHER & NATES SAS COST........SO IF SOMEONE COMES OUT WITH A KIT YOU WILL HAVE AN IDEA IF ITS A FEASABLE PRICE FOR THE WHOLE KIT, OR TO TRY IT YOUR SELF.......MATTY  8)
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 92Sidekick4x4 on May 20, 2004, 02:44:21 PM
has calmini sia dmuch about theres?
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: NY_SIDEKICKER on May 20, 2004, 03:12:24 PM
NOT THAT IVE HEARD......EVEN RRO IS WORKING ON ONE. BUT NO NEWS AS OF YET  ;)
Title: I Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 20, 2004, 04:34:27 PM
I don't think that you can directly compare SAS to IFS.  It's like apples and oranges, both a different fruit, each have their pros and cons depending on lots of things.

What I would like to see is an IFS truck with 20+ inches of travel and 20+ inches of ground clearance at the frame as much as I'd like to see a SAS truck come in the top 100 of a BAHA 1000 race.

Both are pretty far fetched and cost a pretty penny.

Great discussion here though!

Nater
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: ebewley on May 21, 2004, 05:02:42 AM
I just wanted to thank the folks that have participated in this discussion for having an honest dialogue without a bunch of BS thrown in... I've read many, many IFS vs. SAS threads and none have ever really been more than "that sux! this is cool! you stink! I rule!" Anyway, thanks again...  ;D

-Eric
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 21, 2004, 08:26:53 AM
yea this was(and still is) a vary pleasant(sp) debate.  well except the end was getting kinda got nasty a little.  but it was over all a fun topic to respond to.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 21, 2004, 08:43:48 AM
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and if i would have had a 4 door i would have put 2 cases in but i'm not long enought.  i am thinking about taking out my tranny and t case and putting a 2WD  tracker tranny in with a sammy case behide it.

stu


F.Y.I
The OTT Kicker 3 setup (dual t-cases) is as long as the stock Sammy engine, transfercase setup.

~Nate
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: zooky on May 21, 2004, 10:33:06 AM
Quote


F.Y.I
The OTT Kicker 3 setup (dual t-cases) is as long as the stock Sammy engine, transfercase setup.

~Nate

actually, mine is about 1/2" shorter
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 21, 2004, 07:05:57 PM
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actually, mine is about 1/2" shorter


There ya go!  Even shorter.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Wildweasel on May 21, 2004, 11:06:51 PM
I don't think ANYONE was saying you have to go SAS for a rocking trackick, But someone (Mike..) is a little sensitive about it. ;D

The reason I went SAS is for the type of wheeling I do,
(NE rocks) I knew I was going to have to  rebuild the whole
axles drivetrain with heavier componants like Hagen did if I kept them. I am not in love with IFS for crawling, (I am sure someone wil make a great Comp rig and IFS that will actally place someday)  But I went with what I know.

To say that my tracker is like everything else becuase I went SAS is ignorent.
Show me a Jeep or whatever that is set up like it.
(I am not pissing in your weaties bub so Relax)


Trackicks are starting to come into thier own as a viable wheeling platform for the masses, there are more or will be more parts/lifts now than ever.

If I get time I will likly start making copies of my suspension
for sale, But I am also rebuilding a 200 yr old house, and trying to find time to wheel.

I could make it a bolt on (except for the things you have to cut off LOL) but it will be in the 1500.00 range then.
I could produce the basic weld on for 1000.00 with all the springs rod ends/johny joints. (no shocks.)

Is it for everyone? heck no nor do I advocate SAS for everyone.

On the drivetrain, you CAN fit 2 cases on a 2 door , you just have to relocate the tank up, and move the axle back 6"

;D
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 22, 2004, 12:54:38 AM
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On the drivetrain, you CAN fit 2 cases on a 2 door , you just have to relocate the tank up, and move the axle back 6"

;D

i don't have to worry bout the tank,  last winter when we said we where going to remove as much "drag" as possible,  that tank just had to go.  ;D  and for the rear axle, i wouldn't mind moving it back a inch or so but 6 inchs is a long way.  

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 22, 2004, 08:44:53 AM
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I don't think ANYONE was saying you have to go SAS for a rocking trackick, But someone (Mike..) is a little sensitive about it. ;D


I am a little sensitive about it and I apoligize. Im a really calm person but Im just getting a little tired of people just asuming that if trackicks were SAS they would be better. I cant tell you how many times someone has asked me "Have you thought about putting a straight axle under the front?" Everybody says it! WHY! Could I get up more stuff or break less? I highly doubt it.

Now going with a SAS cause its what you know and love... Now thats a great reason. Many of you have done SAS and I have nothing against it. Actually, I enjoy reading and hearing about it. Theres more than one way to build a rig. Everbody drives different and has different preferences, which means there is no one single perfect setup for everything.

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Wildweasel on May 22, 2004, 11:05:27 PM
Mike I would Love to drive your IFS trackick as you have built it very nice,  and I would like to compare it to what I have done. (Kind of apples and ornges but at one time they where the same.  ;D
You doing the melt next year?  I would like to go to moab next year too if I get the finances right. then we can swap trucks for awhile.


Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: 1bigtracker on May 23, 2004, 01:54:20 AM
that is a great ieda.  i think you two should do it.  and mabey put Heathers rig in as a leaf sprung SAS kicker.

stu
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: extremekickin on May 23, 2004, 02:08:46 AM
Hey bud. Just a thought i had and all of the broken front ends that i have heard about all have had the callmini 3" lift in them. the angle is to sharp on the pinion angle.
I have the front diff welded up for a year now and not broken anything up front to date. And keep the tires that yous run to 10.5 and no larger. Bigger isn't alway better.
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Zukipilot on May 23, 2004, 03:41:18 AM
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I am a little sensitive about it and I apoligize. Im a really calm person but Im just getting a little tired of people just asuming that if trackicks were SAS they would be better. I cant tell you how many times someone has asked me "Have you thought about putting a straight axle under the front?" Everybody says it! WHY! Could I get up more stuff or break less? I highly doubt it.

Mike


I know exactly what you mean >:( The other day when I got my kick bacl on the road, tried it out (pics in the other thread and everything is working great. That afternoon I ran into a Heep on 42's driving club member. The first thing out of his mouth was "Good to see you have it back on the road. When are you going to give up on that IFS shit and do a solid axle?" >:( I explained to him that it had been in the shop fixing the weak 1/2 shaft problem and I dont have a front end weak link and more. Now my weak link is my rear SOLID axle.

FYI. later in the conservation he mentioned that his dana 70 was broken so he could not ride next weekend :P

L8r,
Zig
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: lil_Truck on May 23, 2004, 04:47:30 AM
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Hey bud. Just a thought i had and all of the broken front ends that i have heard about all have had the callmini 3" lift in them. the angle is to sharp on the pinion angle.
I have the front diff welded up for a year now and not broken anything up front to date. And keep the tires that yous run to 10.5 and no larger. Bigger isn't alway better.



I put a strap over the nose of the 3rd member and that's all.  I even have a problem with one of the bolts keeps coming out of the bracket on the right hand side of the axil.

I've yet to break the alumium front housing in 2-4 years of wheeling it (first 2 years were only 235R7 5's) and I run 32 - 11.5 MTRs.  I'm not one to hold back and the front end has held up.  I beleive that strap makes a big difference.

I'm not one for pressing fate though.  I have an Anvil on order and just got a steal third member.

Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Mikerpm4x4 on May 23, 2004, 07:11:47 AM
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Mike I would Love to drive your IFS trackick as you have built it very nice,  and I would like to compare it to what I have done. (Kind of apples and ornges but at one time they where the same.  ;D
You doing the melt next year?  I would like to go to moab next year too if I get the finances right. then we can swap trucks for awhile.


Im pretty sure Im gonna pass on Zukimelt this year.  :'( Its just too close to the dates for the Ultimate Adventure. I think my work will freak out.  ::)

If you come to Moab next year we should definately hook up. I swapped with Eric (SAS kick also) at Zukimelt last year. I liked his a lot but its just not for me. I think the feeling was mutual. Its always interesting to drive other peoples stuff. Its either makes you appreciate what you built or makes you think... Hmmm I wonder if I can apply this into my setup?  ;D

Mike
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: idaholwb on May 26, 2004, 07:23:40 AM
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To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure.  
When we went to Moab we brought 5 extra axles with the idea that the extra gears would snap axles like a toothpick.  We've got an overall crawl ratio of 179:1 with our 33s and much to our suprise we gently Moab'ed without breakage just fine.  

We've since then hit it MUCH harder here, (highspeed, highpower, bouncing, etc) closer to home and haven't snapped anything yet.

I've got a buddy who's got 35s on his stock Kick rear shafts (locked) and has been wheeling hard for a year without problems.   (He drives a YJ sprung Samura with a 1.6l, and nearly the same setup as us.)

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that these setups are on leaf springs, which allow the axle/housing to 'wrap'.  Essentially it provides some give instead of the hard and inflexiable setup a link and coil suspension would provide to the axles.

~Nate

Anybody else with experience with both types of setup want to step in here?




They aren't YJ springs, dammit! ::)
They are SJ springs, full size Jeep Grand Wagoneers, they are much better than the YJs! ;D
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 26, 2004, 08:17:41 AM
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They aren't YJ springs, dammit! ::)
They are SJ springs, full size Jeep Grand Wagoneers, they are much better than the YJs! ;D



Yah, but the body isn't on frame anymore and it's all torn apart, so it prolly doesn't matter much right now.
*poke*
;D
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: ebewley on May 27, 2004, 02:42:37 AM
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Yah, but the body isn't on frame anymore and it's all torn apart, so it prolly doesn't matter much right now.
*poke*
;D


What? Did you tear down the 4-door after you got back from Moab?

-Eric
Title: Re: should i go SAS or not???
Post by: Natebert on May 27, 2004, 03:55:56 AM
Nope, the 4door Kick is still fully assembled and is a daily driver.



Kimball (IDAHOLWB) however, was giving me a hardtime because I misquoted what type of springs (YJs vs SJs) he has on his sammy LWB.

???



I had to point out that it doesn't really matter because HIS truck is all torn apart.  (me giving him a hard time back)  ;D



~Nate