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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: selftest on June 14, 2011, 01:09:02 AM

Title: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 14, 2011, 01:09:02 AM: Hey all,

I'm planning on selling my car (2007 VW GTI with 58K miles and a transferrable 100k warranty... >:D ) and picking up a Suzuki of some sort. I have a local friend who is a member of a club and has a really nice rig.

What I'm looking for is a daily driver with slight off road (read: logging roads and drives into the woods of the PNW) capabilities. So after reading for the past week, I think I have a general idea of what I'm looking for, I think:

Not too much lift. Thinking a YJ kit from SKY/TT w/ the shocks. Shocks mainly for ride comfort if it gets a little more rough in the terrain I choose (am I correct in thinking that shocks and mounts are worth the cost for this?) Possibly a body lift for a little aesthetics. Also, because I'm 6'4 and 285lbs, The truck can't look TOO tiny! Does this sound reasonable or am I missing the mark?

Still a little confused on gearing. I live in a really hilly section of Western Washington, and we get a bit of snow as well. I don't need to go super fast (I have a car that does a 6.5 sec 0-60, and it's worthless for what I want to do) but a comfortable top speed of 75 would be great. Having extra torque to get myself out of sticky situations (Western Washington has lots of mud! Who knew?) and up the hellish hills around here would be great, especially as a DD. Is a 1.6 a worthwhile swap for a dude who is going to have to have it professionally installed? Or is a re-gear--I plan on running 30's or 31's -- a viable alternative? I have no real mechanical knowledge (I can change oil and plugs, done a few alternator and starter swaps, welded in high school... no fab work and I'm terrible at math) and even if I did, I have no garage and no tools (I plan on buying a full set of metric stuff, but can't get a welder/torch/etc) to do much of anything with. Simple wrenching will be doable for me, but all major work is going to have to be bought or borrowed. As I said, I know someone in the 'Zuk community up here, so I have a bit of a leg up, I guess.

And finally... I have a budget of about $6k-$8k, depending on the sale of my car. I don't need a vehicle right away, but would like one, of course. I'm really excited for the possibilities (and no $417 car payment and $157 insurance every month!) of these capable little things. I REALLY want a tintop, mostly due to the nature of the weather up here (it's all green up here for a reason!) and because I think they look so good! I guess I'll continue reading some more, and dreaming about the little 'Zuk I have floating in my head...
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: bentparts on June 14, 2011, 03:52:51 AM: Sounds to me like your leaning towards a Sammy, but IMO, for a daily driver with good ride quality, highway capability, creature comforts and moderate off road use you'd be much better off with a late model Sidekick, Tracker or GV.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jluck on June 14, 2011, 04:10:35 AM: Quote from: bentparts on June 14, 2011, 03:52:51 AM
Sounds to me like your leaning towards a Sammy, but IMO, for a daily driver with good ride quality, highway capability, creature comforts and moderate off road use you'd be much better off with a late model Sidekick, Tracker or GV.

X2
I would look for a tracker or vitara with a 2.0 and 5-speed. I really don't think you would be happy with a Sammy (for intended use) until a motor swap at the least was done. Get a newer tracker/vitara get some bolt-ons and 31's and go....
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: BRD HNTR on June 14, 2011, 06:49:00 AM: A Tracker/Kicker/Vitara/GV would make a better DD, and do awesome on PNW back/logging roads. Plan on getting a locker for the rear, and you can go when it gets sloppy. 30" tires work w/o too much down shifting, you will really notice the difference with 31's. Washington off road areas have some rather aggressive trees, so when trail riding expect a little damage and either stay out or don't get something you can't stand to see scratched/dented.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 14, 2011, 12:38:25 PM: Dammit, I get stuck on one vehicle... Anyhow, thanks for the information. That should help when I'm ready to buy.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Drone637 on June 14, 2011, 01:16:47 PM: Quote from: selftest on June 14, 2011, 12:38:25 PM
Dammit, I get stuck on one vehicle... Anyhow, thanks for the information. That should help when I'm ready to buy.

You could go my route, and get 3. That way you have one for every occasion. :D
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 14, 2011, 01:28:52 PM: I think any 4-cylinder, especially a Samurai, will be very hard to live with after a VW GTI. I mean in a stock Samurai we are talking 0-60 in something like 19 seconds. They are slow. Also, all of these vehicles are "older" now and will need lots of work to keep them up and running. They are not like modern cars where you can just drive them with little to no maintenance. If you can't work on it yourself, you will likely be paying thousands of dollars for somebody else to work on it for you.

In addition, I think that these vehicles might be too small for you. I'm 6'3", 215lbs and barely fit into a Samurai. The GV is a little more comfortable space wise, but they still quite small by domestic standards. I've noticed that most larger guys drive jeeps and they do seem to have a lot more space in them. If I were you, I would probably look at a newer Jeep JK, TJ, or GC. (flamesuit on)
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jluck on June 14, 2011, 02:01:48 PM: Quote from: Jonny Rash on June 14, 2011, 01:28:52 PM
I think any 4-cylinder, especially a Samurai, will be very hard to live with after a VW GTI. I mean in a stock Samurai we are talking 0-60 in something like 19 seconds. They are slow. Also, all of these vehicles are "older" now and will need lots of work to keep them up and running. They are not like modern cars where you can just drive them with little to no maintenance. If you can't work on it yourself, you will likely be paying thousands of dollars for somebody else to work on it for you.

In addition, I think that these vehicles might be too small for you. I'm 6'3", 215lbs and barely fit into a Samurai. The GV is a little more comfortable space wise, but they still quite small by domestic standards. I've noticed that most larger guys drive jeeps and they do seem to have a lot more space in them. If I were you, I would probably look at a newer Jeep JK, TJ, or GC. (flamesuit on)

NO!!!!!!!!!!SAY IT AINT SO!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 14, 2011, 03:29:13 PM: Just trying to be honest with him. Driving a Samurai is like driving an 1960's era VW Beetle. Slow, underpowered, very few-to little creature comforts etc, need lots of regular mainteance and/or small repairs. You either like that kind of thing or you hate it. Most people nowadays don't work on cars. They rather just put gas in it and take it to Jiffy Lube for all the other maintenance.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: ack on June 14, 2011, 06:06:54 PM: Quote from: Jonny Rash on June 14, 2011, 03:29:13 PM
Just trying to be honest with him. Driving a Samurai is like driving an 1960's era VW Beetle. Slow, underpowered, very few-to little creature comforts etc, need lots of regular mainteance and/or small repairs. You either like that kind of thing or you hate it. Most people nowadays don't work on cars. They rather just put gas in it and take it to Jiffy Lube for all the other maintenance.

I appreciate your honesty, Jonny!

The Samurai and the TracKick are wonderful vehicles for sure - IF you are not more than 6' and 225lbs.

If you are a big person, these vehicle can be painful than it's worth. Yet another valid reason why Jeeps exist...
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jluck on June 14, 2011, 08:26:48 PM: FWIW, I'm 6'5" 265 LBS and I fit in my 4 door kick just fine. but samurais are just plain horrible to drive.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 15, 2011, 06:55:40 AM: As both a Samurai and a Sidekick owner, I must say that the Sidekick is a much better daily driver-it is much more comfortable and is a heck of a lot more highway friendly than a Samurai ever could be.

The Sidekick is just a more modern vehicle design, whereas the Samurai is more or less a 1940s Willys Jeep layout with a 1980's aluminum powertrain.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Skyhiranger on June 15, 2011, 08:11:40 AM: I will agree that a trackick (as long as it has the 1.6 16V or bigger engine) generally makes a nicer DD than a samurai.
But about a samurai needing "lots of regular mainteance and/or small repairs"...that isn't necessarily true. Other than standard oil/filter changes and tuneups, I haven't had to do any more maintenance and/or small repairs on any of my samurais, than I have to any of my trackicks. Actually, I have probably had to do more small repairs on my trackicks, mile per mile, than on my samurais.
As long as the trips are relatively short and not at constant high speeds, samurais are fun DD's. I have ran one of my samurais on a couple of 65MPH, 5-6 hour one-way trips. It wasn't bad at the time, but like I said, the trackicks with the bigger engines are nicer DDs and ride better than samurais (plus AC is more common on trackicks...if you care about AC).
I regularly drive one of my samurais on :30-1 hour trips, with about half of it being 65-70MPH Interstate driving and it is fine, as far as I am concerned.
I will say that a samurai is a better off road rig than a trackick, IMO. Easier and cheaper to modify, better front axle setup....just better all around, as far as I am concerned.

All that being said....
Selftest....for the situation/useage you describe (logging roads and trails), I would say a 5 speed trackick with a little bigger tires (235s, maybe 30s) and a locker in the rear axle would work fine. It doesn't sound like you are going to be doing any real hard off roading and it will mainly be using it for a DD.
But if you ever plan on doing any harder off roading (big rocks, technical climbs/trails, etc.), I think a samurai will be a better choice, when you get to that point. But once you get to that point, you will probably be using the rig mainly as an off roader with occasional use as a DD.
I guess you could always buy a trackick now, spend $500 or so on tires and a locker, to make it a decent mild off roader and if you ever decide to get into the harder off roading, get a samurai.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 15, 2011, 10:56:43 AM: Yes, I think a 4-door Kick (1st or 2nd Gen) would be a better choice over a Samurai.

Most of the Samurais I've picked up usually need a front end rebuild at minimum. I think most shops would charge $400+ for that type of service. If you do it yourself, it's a time consuming & messy job. Then you have the leaky output seals on the trans/transfer, diff, etc. Just by their sheer age (majority 21-25 years old), Samurais will need more work than a newer Kick. Then you have the fact that they are considered a poor man's jeep and have been treated as such. I often find myself, reparing the other idiot's repairs.

I do think the Samurai is easier to work on though. It was designed to be operated/serviced in the 3rd world. It is definitely more robust than the Sidekick platform as well.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 15, 2011, 02:58:33 PM: All valid points...

I've had my fast car, and all it does is cause me headaches. It's been a great vehicle, but $200 a month car insurance on top of a $417 car payment is rough... Especially when I took a $9 pay cut 2 years after I bought the car.

I don't drive everyday. Not even close. I live and work within a mile, and get a ride to and from work. I want a vehicle that can get me to destinations my current vehicle can't; namely, anywhere without pavement. I used to live in Southern California, where fast was more desirable/practical. Now I live in the PNW, with a county-wide off-freeway speed limit of 35mph, tons of deer and trees, and a real desire to explore. I initially looked at the Suzuki platform because of it's potential to get me to these places. On top of that, I'll have only $6k-$8k to spend on a vehicle. That nearly completely rules out Yotas and Jeeps, unless I want a buster that's even more $$$ to work on than a Suzuki. Within the past week of looking (man, searchtempest.com is great for searching bunches of CL listings...) I have found numerous Zuks well within my price range... But, most of them are Samurais.

I was under the impression that with some minor fab work, I could move the driver's seat back some and attain the legroom I need. I sit close anyway, but I guess I should sit in the truck before I even guess how much smaller it is.

The ONE thing that has me wary is the engine. those 1.6's seem much better than the Samurai engine... I'll start looking around for trackicks...
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 15, 2011, 03:23:07 PM: The 1.3 and 1.6 are basically the same engine. The 1.6 simply has a longer stroke/taller deck height. The 16-valve add a much better cylinder head design and multipoint fuel injection.

You definitely need to sit in a Samurai to see how you fit in it. They are tiny compared to most vehicles on the road and I think you will have a very difficult time fitting in it. A 4-door Sidekick, which is another smallish vehicle compared to most SUVs, will seem enormous in comparison. Also, most Sidekicks had power steering, and the heater & ac system are much better.

As far as modding, a stock Sidekick will get you a lot of places that you wouldn't think it could go. As a Samurai enthusiast, I always thought that they weren't near as good offroad due to the IFS. However, now that I have owned a 1st Gen 2-door, I must say that it does perform quite well. Probably equal to a stock Samurai, but it just has less ground clearance. The modded Sidekicks can definitely hold up with Samurais. On a recent Moab trip, the 4-door Sidekicks could climb steep ledges that my Samurai could not even think of attempting.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 15, 2011, 10:58:27 PM: The more I look at them, the more I like them. I really like the 4 doors... and it looks like I can actually save a bit of money (no engine swap, less expensive suspension components, tires can only be so big so no temptation to go tooo big...) in doing the upgrades as well.

One question.. do all Sidekick back seats fold down and flat? Or are there specific years that do?
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jluck on June 16, 2011, 12:10:24 AM: first gen don't fold flat. the back folds down and the the assy. folds foreward. kinda a pisser.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 16, 2011, 06:28:30 AM: The second generation (which I own as well-'99 GV) has a funky folding method. The bottoms fold into the footwells, the you take the headrest off and fold the seat back forward. The headrest the slides into the bottom.

As far as larger tires. I would run the stock ones or whatever comes with the vehicle until it comes time to replace them. My '90 Sidekick just has stock tires and it does really well, for what it is, off-road. It could definitely handle most logging roads.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 16, 2011, 02:19:25 PM: That doesn't sound fun at all! ;D

It looks like I can pick up a Sidekick for about $3-$4k around here. After a tune-up and some much needed tools, I should have nearly enough to do exactly what I want to the vehicle. 235's, a lift from ZukNation (they're really close to where I live), bumpers and sliders. And about 10 rattlecans of Olive drab paint.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 16, 2011, 02:51:28 PM: Don't use the rattle can OD green as it UV fades very quickly. Been there.

I think that you will find a 4-door with 235s will go alot of places. Probably won't even need a lift to fit those tires, maybe a mild body lift.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: bentparts on June 16, 2011, 06:16:00 PM: I personally think your on the right track, but to fit a decent set of tires in the 235 range, spending all that coin on a elaborate lift really isnt necessary. Unless you stick something bigger than 235's on anything with 3" or more inches of lift you'll ending up having a top heavy rig that won't handle as well on the road, and look kinda goofy too. my 2 cents, of course. A four door, 235' w a couple inches of lift, minor mods to the drivers seat to get it back further, one with as many options as you can find, as low a milage one as you can, keep up with all the simple maintenence and the thing will take you everywhere you'll want to go in reletive comfort.
Or go for the good lift kit but at least go 31's in a mud terrian. But you'll notice the power loss at higher altitudes, and a real hit in fuel economy that even a gearing change won't bring back.
You may think now hell, I can live with 20 +_mpg, but I'll bet in the long run 235's in a decent tread pattern, moderate lift say 2", rear locker and getting almost everywhere you want to go with fuel to spare is a good argument for not going to extreme. The closer to stock the suspension is the better it will feel also. Go with a good quality coil lift or inexpensive spacer lift in the 2" range with modest 235's and enjoy the savings to spend on going places. Once again, jmho.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Capt on June 17, 2011, 06:24:41 AM: On the OD Green Paint,
My Sammy the, "Timber Cruiser" OD Green Base Coat was painted with "Rustoeum" Duck Boat Paint.
Pix on the forum under "Timber Cruiser" a few pages back,
I didn't like the lighter shade of green, so I added 8 oz. of Rustoeum flat black per quart and got a good
"Black Forest OD Green" and it has held up well including 9 months in the Nevada High Desert Sun.

Shot the paint with a Harbor Freight "Small Repairs" sprayer (Cheap). This gun worked great as you will realize the a
Suzuki (Any Model) does not have a lot of surface area.

CAPT
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 17, 2011, 07:12:32 AM: Your paint job does look good. Reminds me of the old Army camo pattern.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: selftest on June 19, 2011, 09:04:38 PM: I like that paint a bunch... I do think I want a little more brownish green, it will match nicely with my surroundings.

I am definitely gonna do just a mild lift. OME front and rear coils with the nitrocharger shocks, a 1.5 or 2" spacer in the front and rear, and then 235's. The rest of the budget can be for more important goodies; winch, ARB locker (don't want full time lock, if there is an easier/cheaper option, let me know!) and armor. I'll probably build/buy a larger fuel tank to extend range.

Thanks a bunch guys, for all the help. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Rubberducky on June 20, 2011, 02:06:28 PM: Get a Trackick, put a 3" 0r 2" lift by these guys http://www.alteredegomotorsports.com/tracker-suspension.html (http://www.alteredegomotorsports.com/tracker-suspension.html)
235's or 30x9.5 on 7x15's mud terains with a 3 1/4" Back Space rims.
ARB in the back
And TaaaaDaaaa!
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Rubberducky on June 20, 2011, 02:08:57 PM: Then you can get a plate that says this:
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Capt on June 21, 2011, 06:21:34 AM: How 'bout a plate like.....

[size=20 CJ HNTR[/size]
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Rubberducky on June 21, 2011, 06:51:01 AM: Here is an example video I like. This guy, I think only has a 2" lift on 235's with ARB front and back and look at the 4x4ing he is doing. Alot has to do with the driver as well.
Know your rig. Not always, bigger is better.

Vitara 4x4 Trilha Off Road GARU 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEG2zJHnogU#)
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jluck on June 21, 2011, 07:14:00 AM: It seems just natural to overthink things as off-roaders I think. knowing how to drive your vehicle and good old fashioned seat time will beat Mr 100k jeep owner that has no idea how to drive it. :laugh:

just give your ride a smart amount of lift, some good tires (suited for you wheeling), and some traction aid.

take it out and develop a relationship with your rig. learn it wheel it and go right around Mr. 100k jeep with the biggest sense of pride you may ever feel! :)

mod as necessary from there....
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Jonny Rash on June 21, 2011, 07:35:58 AM: Agree with both of you guys. Know your rig.
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Rubberducky on June 25, 2011, 07:01:32 AM: Quote from: Capt on June 21, 2011, 06:21:34 AM
How 'bout a plate like.....

[size=20 CJ HNTR[/size]
Or one like this ya'all [DLIVRNS]
Title: Re: Some simple questions, I hope.
Post by: Rubberducky on June 25, 2011, 07:07:56 AM: Quote from: Jluck on June 21, 2011, 07:14:00 AM
It seems just natural to overthink things as off-roaders I think. knowing how to drive your vehicle and good old fashioned seat time will beat Mr 100k jeep owner that has no idea how to drive it. :laugh:

just give your ride a smart amount of lift, some good tires (suited for you wheeling), and some traction aid.

take it out and develop a relationship with your rig. learn it wheel it and go right around Mr. 100k jeep with the biggest sense of pride you may ever feel! :)

mod as necessary from there....
Amen!