ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: tictac on June 16, 2011, 07:26:20 PM
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Has anyone ever designed a new TBI intake for the 8v engine? the stock one is terrible. I bet with a better one that doesnt heat the charge up there is probable an easy 5-10 hp increase with a new one and a mild build.
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I was thinking about this, too. Then I started to have more and more people tell me, and point me to articles about engine design and tuning, and the more I learned, the more I realized that Suzuki/Geo actually intentionally designed the air intake to cross over the hot exhaust for a reason. It acts as an "intake air heater." All this talk about "cold air intakes" and such, and there actually is such a thing as having air that is TOO cool. It crosses over the exhaust for a reason.
I left mine alone. The only thing I am trying to change right now is the fact that the factory intake tube in the fender has two inlets: one next to the headlight drawing in fresh outside air, and another inlet in the engine compartment behind the headlight about 1" around. I would suggest (and I am trying to do this now) ducting that 1" inlet to just behind the grille with some kind of air "scoop" to be drawing in cleaner/cooler air, not from inside the engine compartment. Then you retain the original "intake air heater" that Suzuki engineered for a reason. Believe me, there's plenty of things that we look at and think "why the hell did they do that?" when actually they did lots of R&D and engineering to come up with things.
I'm fooling around with this right now but haven't come up with a real good idea.
I was going to use an extra-wide Shop-Vac tip and some 1" flex ducting. That's my "prototype" idea. If anyone has any better suggestions, throw them out there.
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This reminds me of those ads - 5~10 hp from a cold air intake - yeah - right.
By the way - I did reply in your other thread with a more informative answer, just not prepared to repeat it here.
Think carefully about it though - on a percentage basis - can you get that much more power by simply cooling the intake charge - or are you just regurgitating the hype that "bling" manufacturers spew?
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I thought anything chrome under the hood added 20+ H.P.. ??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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In that case I'm going to chrome the engine cover on my "new-to-me" Pinin
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Im talking about a new intake manifold, not cold air. lol, I dont think cold air would do much when you have hot coolant running between the runners inside the intake. its gonna be heated up. not to mention the sharp turns it makes before going into the port. chrome is pretty and all, but it dont help up power up a hill or down the track. ;)
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First - let me agree with you - having a cold air intake doesn't make much sense if the intake manifold is heated - BUT - as has been explained, there is a reason it's heated.
Having got that out of the way - my point is - regardless of how you slice & dice it - at the end of the day, what you're talking about is lowering the intake charge temperature, except you're not doing it with some bling piping upstream of the TBI, you're doing it with some bling piping downstream of the TBI.
All I'm saying is - don't expect 5~10 more hp out of that engine by reducing the intake air temps - it's not going to happen - yes - that's what you see in the ads for the bling CAI kits, but do they actually deliver?
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im talking about a better flowing intake. better runner shape, length and yes, a cooler intake charge.
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Agreed, the intake on the 8V engine is roughly designed like the old
single bbl straight 6 engines intake, those were heated by having the
exhaust manifold right under it too, but those were some good torque
engines
Wild
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Reducing IAT is important to a certain extent. It will gather heat no matter what you do to it. However, reducing turbulence would be more helpful. Similar to porting the intake runners and the intake ports in the head, creating a smooth air chamber may help.
But, remember, we're only talking about an engine that was only designed for so much output. Your "performance" won't be noticeable. The theory is correct. The problem is, on an engine this small, there isn't much gain to really doing anything.
I don't even know why I'm dicking around with the idea of "ducting" the air inlet out of the engine bay. I keep coming back to the above explanation the more I think about these things.
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ok guys, everyone knows the only way to get REAL H.P. out of these machines is one of these...(http://www.4caroption.com/images/products/items/AFT-200RD.jpg)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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That must come with a 50 HP sticker too, it's a turbo with no moving parts !!!
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Hang on a second - there's a "twin turbo" version of that thing with two wheels linked by a shaft - the air flow turns one and that one turns the other, I'll see if I can dig up the link.
Here you go (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SPIRAL-TWIN-TURBO-SUPERCHARGER-MANIFOLD-INTAKE-NEW-/330523486961?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4cf4bc2af1) :laugh:
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Damn, I wasted all that time building a turbo when I coulda bought that :( :laugh:
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I'm hoping (note, said hoping) for 1 hr per cubic inch. lol. we will see though. my motorcycle had a bigger motor than this. lol. But I hope with a good ported head, ported intake, tbi spacer, ceramic coated pistons, chamber and exhaust ports, higher compression I can get that. I will design and build a new intake manifold to see if it helps this engine. after all, it is only 97 ci. but the intake comes after I build and install the engine. my current one is about dead and its my daily.
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keep in mind that the factory has to build vehicles to safely opperate under all conciveable conditions. The intake warm up system is designed so the throttle plate does not freeze open in cold climates.....Now, i know that most of you are laughing, thinking i could drive with a brick on the accellerator pedal full time. But, as you can see a stuck open throttle could be a safety issue.
Some models even have a heater for the PCV valve as well.
Now, my opinion if you are like me and looking for as many ponies as possible......listed by order of expense
he left
advance the ignition timing to a very light ping. later models need a connector jumped to get a accurate reading (need help ask) The low compression engine will accept more advance.
Remove the left front fender inner fender well. Remove all the intake air ducting from inside the fender well. Reinstall the inner fender liner. Remove air cleaner lid and air cleaner. Using a 1/4 " drill bit drill a hole in the air cleaner base with the holes being 1 inch on center apart. Reinstall the air cleaner and housing top.
Add a header and 2 " cat back exhaust
convert to a 16 valve engine
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I'm hoping (note, said hoping) for 1 hr per cubic inch. lol. we will see though. my motorcycle had a bigger motor than this. lol. But I hope with a good ported head, ported intake, tbi spacer, ceramic coated pistons, chamber and exhaust ports, higher compression I can get that. I will design and build a new intake manifold to see if it helps this engine. after all, it is only 97 ci. but the intake comes after I build and install the engine. my current one is about dead and its my daily.
I gotta say this - tictac - you're a good sport. I've seen guys get really pissed off when ragged on.
Don't let any of us discourage you, I think your 1 hp/ci goal is definitely acheivable.
Oh - you might want skip drilling those holes in the air cleaner base - not only will they let in hot air from the engine bay, if you go off road they will probably let water in as well.
And whilst I'm about it - zukwrench - I think we were discussing the water heated intake manifold - that's after the TBI so it's not going to prevent icing around the throttle plate.
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The heated intake mani is a low tech/cost attempt at maintaining a steady higher operating temp cleaning up the emissions(keeps the EGR port clean), and it most certainly downgrades the available horsepower. 30 years of machining and building engines has left a few tidbits of experience with this, the issue with gaining power with a CAI on the FI 1.6L 8-16v engines is entirely in the ECU. Add in a piggyback AFC and you will start seeing gains. When the throttle goes past a cruise setting the ECU exits closed loop operation and enters open loop and runs entirely off the calibration and does not use the short term fuel trim and ANY increase in air will cause the A/F to go real lean and loose significant power.
Cold air intake should be called a cooler air intake
I have a 98' Sidekick JX with the 1.6L and the intake pipe is ENTIRELY plastic, the plastic DOES not retain or transmitt the heat nearly as intensely as the older cast aluminum, so the absurd idea that the placement of the intake pipe over the exhaust mani is an intentional heat creator is busted, it is merely a open convenient route for the intake pipe.
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Ya, when my Kick was a new Trucklet I was looking for more power and
one of the first things I did was to drill the filter box, guys with motorcycles
did it and claimed it helped so I thought I would give it a try.
Results, no power increase and more throttle noise in the cab when driving,
the stock ducting to the filter is fine and I don't think there is any significant
restriction in that system.
I replaced my old filter box with another one for dirt control, I never really
was worried about water in the filter housing it was higher than the intake
tubing, and if I'm that deep in water I have more pressing things to be worried
about ;)
Wild
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You will get more power from reducing the intake temperature. Its actually directly proportional, so a 10% reduction in IAT will give you 10% more power but its proportional to degrees kelvin so you need to reduce IAT by around 30C to get a 10% increase which is probably not very practical.
I had a good look at the intake piping a few years ago and concluded that the whole thing is designed to have a cross-sectional area roughly equivalent to a 45mm dia hole, to get any improvement you would have to replace all of it including the throttle body which doesn't have any spare metal at the top to allow it to be bored out.
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I know a new intake manifold will help this motor. I have built and designed several for nissians, turbo dodges, mitsubishi. everyone worked good. but I tested with flow bench and ultimately on the car as u dont race the flow bench. the designers of this motor had a tight budget to work with im sure. as do they all. I am not discouraged in the least about getting ragged on. I laugh at it because most of u dont know my background. I have been building performance engines and porting heads, making intakes, ect since 1990. have quite a bit of experience and seem to be drawn to odd ball cars that mainstream people disreguard. these little trucklets are amazing for what they are. im impressed with what I have seen in this motor tearing it down. oil squirters, full floating wrist pins, a type of crank girdle. pretty impressive.
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I personally like a challenge when people doubt. If nobody ever tried mods/changes no progress would ever happen. I know any of the earlier posts were just adding comedic value, not doubting you or your ability. I look forward to watching your progress.
and its just fun to point out some of the 1000 HP adding 20 dollar eBay items. unfortunately people fall for these scams on the regular. ::)
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I'm hoping (note, said hoping) for 1 hr per cubic inch. lol. we will see though. my motorcycle had a bigger motor than this. lol. But I hope with a good ported head, ported intake, tbi spacer, ceramic coated pistons, chamber and exhaust ports, higher compression I can get that. I will design and build a new intake manifold to see if it helps this engine. after all, it is only 97 ci. but the intake comes after I build and install the engine. my current one is about dead and its my daily.
When I built the engine for my Harley bagger years ago I had a goal of 1hp per CI. Using stock bore and stroke =80 CI, just good heads with bigger valves and better port design, cam, intake and exhaust , ( still carburated Mikuni 42mm flatslide) ignition, and forged higher compression pistons ( 9.7 to 1 ) the standard hot rod stuff, I got 81hp and 79 ft lbs. DO IT! It can be done and with your background and skills I'm sure you can do it. Oh, one more thing, since I didn't want to go bigger bore or stroke, the only other way to get more power is to spin it higher. Stock redline for a Harley motor is 5300, with my built lightweight valve train, I now redline at 6600.
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thats the first harley motor ive seen that made more hp than tq! I ported a set of heads for an 883 before. im pretty confident that I will get my hp goal or close to it. who knows, may even exceed it. ;)
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Yeah, most HD engines are closer to Diesel's when it comes to powerbands, and most guys ride 'em that way, chug chug chug. Me, I like to spin 'em too. Nothing like a big v twin wound up to redline, and they are actually smoother when spun up a bit more. Man I love talking about making HP out of little motors! Weeeee! ;D
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When you doing the turbo on the Harley? >:D
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When you doing the turbo on the Harley? >:D
He might have to make it a trike to get the power to the ground. Or have lots of spare rear tires 8)
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I know a guy (kinda a friend I guess) who has a blown Harley. theres a small roots type supercharger where the OE gas tank was. its scary fast.
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When you doing the turbo on the Harley? >:D
I've got another new center section for my turbo stored for a spare, if I had the whole unit I might have tried it. But hey it's a bagger, it's plenty fast enough, especially in the corners! It would be fun to build one though. A friend of a friend did build a blow through turbo system for his Harley and it worked, for awhile, till he melted his pistons. ;D
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A little turbo off of a 1.0 turbo Sprint would fit nicely, of coarse
you got to tune for the boost so you don't get melted parts