ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Build Diaries, How-To, DIY => Topic started by: TheZuke on June 20, 2011, 07:59:35 PM
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Due to misconceptions being inherently connected to the voiced opinions, thoughts and ideas posted herein, it is with hesitancy that I begin the documentation of Rudy's (1991 Sidekick) build. For the sculptor, a completed masterpiece displays a visualization conceived in the mind's eye. For the fabricator, a finished product might be a rendition of a vision, however some art is not appreciated equally by all.
My preamble is thus; take this build for what it is worth.
I picked up "Rudy" about a year and a half ago with great intentions but... that was a year and a half ago and I already had "The Zuke" on the go. So, this Spring with renewed vigor and being bored of working on The Zuke I started to tear down for a build up. Here are some pics of The Zuke and Rudy.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1030822.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1030888.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/P1040514.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/IMG_1004.jpg)
For those of you wondering how the 4.5 inch Alter Ego lift by Zukination performs, I will hopefully have some more info by the end of the month for you.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040699.jpg)
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Ok, I'll bite. English Major, or poet or both? :D Keep the pics coming!
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Nice intro 8) Cant wait to see the build..
Zig
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keep them pics coming there romeo. ;)
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Wow... that is a lot of rust for such a straight body. :)
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So, no additional pics yet but, I'll give you a run down of my plans and progress. I know, I know. No pictures = boring build. You shall therefore prepare yourselves to be bored (unless you quit reading now)
Boring detail #1:
Rudy's rusty bod is currently detached from its chassis. It got rusty from eating road salt for 9 months out of the year. Watch out or the same may happen to you. So, as you can imagine, if the body is rusty, the frame must have a sweet iron oxide paint scheme too. After a trip to the blasters, that reddish orange turned sandblasted steel color and then I convinced it with my persuasive skills to be flat black. To get all of that stubborn rust trapping undercoating off, the sandblaster guy had to heat it with a torch and scrape the melted goo off. But, now with 2 healthy coatings of POR 15 and some flat black top coating I don't expect rust for another few months. By the way, it takes a good week to get POR 15 off of your hands. This is 3 days after the fact.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1048.jpg)
#2
Rudy is an automatic with 4.625 (to be precise) gears. I picked up some 5.125 (to be precise) gears to regain some gearing when I install some taller tires.
#3
I purchased, after much deliberation, the alter ego kit from Zukination. I'm pretty stoked to install it on the bare, clean frame. I haven't got that far yet because I have been attending trade school away from home for 2 months.
My reason for choosing Rudy as my money pit is because it is loaded... for a sidekick. Power windows, power locks, cruise control, map lights, A/C. So, although I'm anxious to "Get Her Done" the process will likely be slow.
Thanks for your interest in this boring build.
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Beings the body is as straight as it is, providing of course both sides are that straight, might be a good time to perform some surgery and cut off the rusty rockers and weld in some rock guards. Same for the fenders too, I mean what the hell, they're already mostly gone on the edges anyway, might as well trim 'em up. Once again, providing the rest is still good, such as floor and body mounts etc.
Nice find too, being loaded and all. worth fixing up imo.
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Well, in order to build interest in the White Beast, I suppose I should continue to post. Therefore, I shall post.
Here is my method of frame removal. The body has been up on those blocks for 3 months.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1013.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1016.jpg)
I mentioned earlier that the frame was rusty but, I should also have said that at some point, the frame was coated in an asphalt undercoating. The whole undercarriage is covered in this tar stuff. As you can see from the pictures, I reinforced the front body mounts as I find that they are kinda flimsy for a winch bumper mount. I have not yet designed the bumper but I intend on mounting it to the angle iron on the front.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1031.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1025.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1033.jpg)
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Just recieved my Altered Ego 4.5" lift yesterday.
In the future if you want to remove that nasty asphalt undercoating, or the interior sound deadening all that is required is some dry ice. I take the dry ice pellets and crush them in a ziplock bag untill it resembles snow, apply the dry ice "snow" directly onto the asphalt and stand back, it will pop and ping and fly right off and only minor scraping and clean up is required, make sure to wear safety glasses, a piece of dry ice in the eye can be hazardous.
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Just recieved my Altered Ego 4.5" lift yesterday.
In the future if you want to remove that nasty asphalt undercoating, or the interior sound deadening all that is required is some dry ice. I take the dry ice pellets and crush them in a ziplock bag untill it resembles snow, apply the dry ice "snow" directly onto the asphalt and stand back, it will pop and ping and fly right off and only minor scraping and clean up is required, make sure to wear safety glasses, a piece of dry ice in the eye can be hazardous.
Well, what I want to know, is what made you try this? It's not something that would normally just pop into your head..."hey, let's just try dry ice" ???
Anyways, looking forward to seeing more. Keep us posted
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Well, what I want to know, is what made you try this? It's not something that would normally just pop into your head..."hey, let's just try dry ice" ???
Anyways, looking forward to seeing more. Keep us posted
LOL, I am not sure who originally came up with this, but it was at least 10 years ago that I first heard of using this technique, and have used it several times, in fact last summer I did a Honda civic interior, removed all the old asphalt and sprayed in LizardSkin sound deadner and then top coated with Monstaliner bedliner.
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that blocking of the body doesent look safe at all >:D >:D
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X2
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Just recieved my Altered Ego 4.5" lift yesterday.
In the future if you want to remove that nasty asphalt undercoating, or the interior sound deadening all that is required is some dry ice. I take the dry ice pellets and crush them in a ziplock bag untill it resembles snow, apply the dry ice "snow" directly onto the asphalt and stand back, it will pop and ping and fly right off and only minor scraping and clean up is required, make sure to wear safety glasses, a piece of dry ice in the eye can be hazardous.
Well, what I want to know, is what made you try this? It's not something that would normally just pop into your head..."hey, let's just try dry ice" ???
Anyways, looking forward to seeing more. Keep us posted
talonxracer is spot on with how well it works... although I've not tried it with a ziplock, good idea... it's actually a method that's been around a while; a lot of old school hot-rodders have used it for dropping unneeded weight in drag cars for years.
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that blocking of the body doesent look safe at all >:D >:D
Safe? What is that??? Actually, I took out all of the 2x4s after I got the frame out. But, as you can see from the snow this is not a current picture and, it is still sitting on top of the logs. Even after the snow melted out from under the logs. I was a little worried about it falling when I walked by it one day and there were 6" round snow pillars under the logs holding it up. After some jacking and chiseling I got it on safe ground. Well, safe enough for me.
Just recieved my Altered Ego 4.5" lift yesterday.
In the future if you want to remove that nasty asphalt undercoating, or the interior sound deadening all that is required is some dry ice. I take the dry ice pellets and crush them in a ziplock bag untill it resembles snow, apply the dry ice "snow" directly onto the asphalt and stand back, it will pop and ping and fly right off and only minor scraping and clean up is required, make sure to wear safety glasses, a piece of dry ice in the eye can be hazardous.
Talonxracer, Thanks for the tip. I'll have to do that to the underside of the body when I get to that point. If I can find some Dry Ice.
Here are some shots of the frame.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1041.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1036.jpg)
I decided to touch up some of the components that were rusty.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1053.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1062.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/IMG_1063.jpg)
And now, The Frame.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040780.jpg)
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VERY nice job on the frame!
I am not going as far down the restoration path ATM as you are, I do plan on snagging a frame to do a complete frame restoration and possibly a new tub from down in the Southwest next summer.
You should be able to get dry ice at most any welding supply shop, also there is a national dry ice directory on line that can provide a list of any and all local suppliers. I bought 20lbs and had about 6 lbs left over doing a Honda Civic interior.
I placed the dry ice in a gallon ziplock bag, placed the bag between two 2x10's and walloped it repeatedly with a small sledge to make dryice snow.
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VERY nice job on the frame!
I am not going as far down the restoration path ATM as you are, I do plan on snagging a frame to do a complete frame restoration and possibly a new tub from down in the Southwest next summer.
You should be able to get dry ice at most any welding supply shop, also there is a national dry ice directory on line that can provide a list of any and all local suppliers. I bought 20lbs and had about 6 lbs left over doing a Honda Civic interior.
I placed the dry ice in a gallon ziplock bag, placed the bag between two 2x10's and walloped it repeatedly with a small sledge to make dryice snow.
Thanks! I know, I'm going a little too far for something that will not even make it to the highway on our 10km of gravel without getting dirty but, maybe I'm a little OCD. Not to mention that the Body is rusting into despair.
When I finally decided that I wanted to sandblast the frame I realized that the fuel lines and brake line would be better off if I removed them. After busting 1/2 of the little plastic clips I thought that maybe I was in over my head but, a trip to the wreckers later I procured some new clippies. These lines were also covered in the undercoating so I disassembled them and used paint thinner,a rag, a toothbrush and elbow grease to scrub the crud off. Now I have freshly exposed lines ready to be covered in mud.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040794.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040792.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040797.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040795.jpg)
Installing new wheel bearings into the hub. Note, install wheel studs first because pressing studs in after the bearings are installed introduces opportunities for dirt to get on everything.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040798.jpg)
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Those are some clean lines. Keep up the excellent work. Speed it up too!
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So what exactly is this POR-15 I keep reading about on here? You can apply it directly to rusted metal? Does it work better to prep the surface like regular paint or just slather it on? Might use this for the little project trailer
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POR15 is a sealant paint that is applied over rust and it stops it from further rusting.
Very few people that I know actually have used the POR15, but instead use Chassis-Saver(which I personally prefer and use). To use the ChassisSaver you use a wire brush to remove rust scale(but not down to clean metal) and brush it on, i assume POR15 will be the same general procedure.
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Dude looks like everything rust bad there , I thought that oregon was bad at the coast , they must salt the roads for winter :)
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So what exactly is this POR-15 I keep reading about on here? You can apply it directly to rusted metal? Does it work better to prep the surface like regular paint or just slather it on? Might use this for the little project trailer
Dido talonxracer's reply
POR15 is a sealant paint that is applied over rust and it stops it from further rusting.
Very few people that I know actually have used the POR15, but instead use Chassis-Saver(which I personally prefer and use). To use the ChassisSaver you use a wire brush to remove rust scale(but not down to clean metal) and brush it on, i assume POR15 will be the same general procedure.
I like how POR 15 has worked so far but I have not really put it to the test of time yet. I poured it into a yogurt container and when it dried I pulled it out in one piece. There was one spot that was quite thick (cereal box cardboard thickness) and when I tried to tear it with my hands I couldn't and it wouldn't crack when I bent it back and forth. It is however, disappointingly enough not UV resistant and there fore needs to be top coated. I painted a piece of pipe about 3 months ago and it has been outside since and the paint is already failing. Hopefully, that makes sense.
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The chassis saver only changes color due to UV, the black turns grey, but it doesnt alter it's physical properties or protection.
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just a quick word on the use of dry ice. I worked in a manufacturing industry for 32 years. we would be dry ice to clean machines with. Dirty grimey, oily, nasty bad I don't wanna touch that thing kinda machine. We would spray dry ice on them and feeze the crap off of the machine and then blow it off with high air pressure. It worked great!
Your work on the Zuk looks GREAT... but COLD! I guess ya gotta take the good with the bad to see results!!! :laugh:
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Your work on the Zuk looks GREAT... but COLD! I guess ya gotta take the good with the bad to see results!!! :laugh:
Thanks, the Zuke is fun and not bad in the cold. It is the mud that really presents a fun angle. Unless you don't like mud. I don't really like mud.
Well, I have been busy but, the camera doesn't always follow me to the shop. I did take some comparison pictures of the zukination alter-ego lift with the stock set up. When I opened the boxes, there were a couple of components included that I felt were unnecessary but with everything installed it seems to be OK.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040768.jpg)
This little piece below is one of the items that I initially felt was unnecessary. They call it an upper knuckle relocation bracket (or something to that effect). The aluminum block goes in the strut where the knuckle would normally go and then the knuckle gets sandwiched to the front of the strut. It's main purpose is to correct the caster. Since the ball joint is moved forward, then they figure that the top of the knuckle should move forward and this is the easiest way to do that without moving the whole strut forward. Savvy.
When, you break it down, a line drawn through the strut in it's stock location passes through the outer CV joint and then through the balljoint. With the knuckle moved forward and the strut sandwiched behind it, this line now passes behind the CV joint. Since I was installing this on a bare frame, it was very easy to see the effects. When the spindle is turned from side to side, you can also see that this rotational movement of the top of the knuckle causes the CV to plunge in and out. Also, the strut swings in a funky arc. I called Geoff and asked him about not using it and he said that vehicles he has run that without relocating the knuckle have vibration??? I know that Muskegtracker moved his lower balljoint forward 2 inches or so and noticed no vibrations. Maybe the combination of the lift and everything...... Well, in the long run I decided to use the bracket mainly because it allows for more camber adjustment due to the offset of the holes in the aluminum. You still have to slot the upper strut hole but without it, you would also have to remove material on the knuckle between the strut and the top hole of the knuckle as it would bottom out on the body of the strut before the proper camber was achieved. Sorry, a picture would make more sense but alas.
With all of that said, if caster was the real issue, I would like to see a strut relocation bracket/strut spacer that moves the whole strut forward with the knuckle thus negating the need for said upper knuckle relocation bracket. I would also like to see it moved to a location that compensated for camber too. If you have to make a spacer, it just as well do something. To their credit, their spacer is offset a little. I'm guessing it makes up for the rest of the difference that the thickness of the knuckle does not. I'm sure that this makes no sense to anyone but me but I trying.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040778.jpg)
Now, with all of that said, my dad owns a sunrunner that we ordered a lift for at the same time. The lift is installed and it handles like a dream. It is relatively smooth through the fields and washboards and has gobs of articulation.
I also wish that the lift came with a little more new hardware. It came with all new bolts for the rear lower links (4 in total) but nothing for the front of the 3rd link (the creeper joint comes with a 9/16 bolt), the control arms, or the shocks. In our country, all of theses bolts required a little liquid wrench to be removed as they seize in the sleeves of the bushings. A few bolts are by no means a deal breaker but it does make the lift a little more complete.
Rear Springs
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040772.jpg)
Front springs
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040771.jpg)
Diff drop Brackets
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040782.jpg)
Not sure what shocks these are but they are long. So long in fact, the springs have about 1.5inches of room on full droop. Not quite enough to fall out or off of the perches but they do flop around when given the freedom.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040773.jpg)
Control arms. Self explanatory. Balljoint moves forward 1.5 inches with some lift built into the control arms. One qualm I do have with the control arms is you do lose turn radius as the caliper will actually hit the spring on full lock. The rim will also hit the control arm if you are using stock rims. Not an issue if you are using big tires because they will probably hit the frame at around the same time. The steering stops have to be extended almost all of the way to avoid the calipers hitting the springs. In fact, on my application, the stops are not long enough.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/TheZuke/Rudy%20Build%20Off/P1040775.jpg)
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nice pic's
Your removed parts are at least useable, I had to cut mine out! LOL
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Now I have freshly exposed lines ready to be covered in mud. :laugh:
I hear ya. But it easier to maintain in the long run if you start fresh. Now keeping it clean, that's the real hard part. I've found that rubberized stuff that came on a lot of em stock, is actually pretty good at keeping the parts from rusting. PITA to have to remove to weld around and such, but now that I got that dry ice tip I'll never scrape that crap again. Thanks guys. ;)
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The chassis saver only changes color due to UV, the black turns grey, but it doesnt alter it's physical properties or protection.
every couple of cleanings, especially after paticularly wet and muddy runs, I'll clean the chassis and fender wells real good, and use the same stuff I use to treat my sidewalls to treat any easily reachable part of the cassis and fenderwells that's covered with any kind of paint or undercoating. Just squeeze a dollap on a piece of sponge, I use a lot of recycled packing materials for this, and slather on anything you can reach. The slicker surface makes it harder for dirt and mud to stick, and it washes off easier when it does stick. Not only does it make it look all nice and clean, it helps keep it that way. I firmly believe that a well maintained rig tends to actually stay cleaner because of the surface treatments. Looks cool too. 8)
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I've found that rubberized stuff that came on a lot of em stock, is actually pretty good at keeping the parts from rusting. PITA to have to remove to weld around and such, but now that I got that dry ice tip I'll never scrape that crap again. Thanks guys. ;)
Rudy (the sidekick) actually has the rubberized stuff on it with an additional layer of asphalt undercoating on top. I was doing a little rust hole welding on the body yesterday and this stuff would burn like kerosene. Once ignited, burning gobs of tar would drip to the ground while continuing to burn. The fact that the threads of the bolts were all covered in this stuff could be the reason I only had to use the angle grinder to cut off one lower links.
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A discovery today,
While I was laying under the vehicle wiping some of the excess antisieze off, making youthfull engine noises and climbing imaginary mtns I pulled on the A-arm and it moved almost a quarter of an inch and thunked!
I knew immediatly what was happening, the a-arm's bushing were too short and the crush sleeve/center bushing was the correct length, thusly when the bushings were all greased up the A-arm could slide back and forth on the center bushing. I made a quick trip to the parts bin and found 8 large washers with a center hole of 3/4" to go over the center bushing, they fit perfectly and the A-arm has no movement, the washers will also help keep debris and stuff out of the bushings and they should last far longer. (crappy pic, macro feature screwed up on the camera, but ya get the idea) This is done to both the front and rear bushings on the a-arm. The washers are the gold colored parts between the outside of the poly bush and the frame Bracket.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/talonxracer/IMG_1214.jpg)
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Quick solution to that problem, nice work. You would think that for that much money they would fit a bit better though. I understand the need for large tolerences in suspension mounting on these trucks as most are pre-pounded, but having to add 1/4" of washers to make them fit seems a tad sloppy on their part. Did you compare them to the stock bushings in the control arms you removed ?
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The center bushings are the same length, they are the perfect length.
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A discovery today,
While I was laying under the vehicle wiping some of the excess antisieze off, making youthfull engine noises and climbing imaginary mtns I pulled on the A-arm and it moved almost a quarter of an inch and thunked!
I knew immediatly what was happening, the a-arm's bushing were too short and the crush sleeve/center bushing was the correct length, thusly when the bushings were all greased up the A-arm could slide back and forth on the center bushing. I made a quick trip to the parts bin and found 8 large washers with a center hole of 3/4" to go over the center bushing, they fit perfectly and the A-arm has no movement, the washers will also help keep debris and stuff out of the bushings and they should last far longer. (crappy pic, macro feature screwed up on the camera, but ya get the idea) This is done to both the front and rear bushings on the a-arm. The washers are the gold colored parts between the outside of the poly bush and the frame Bracket.
I had the same issue and performed the same washer shim mod. Actually, I was quite disappointed in the quality of the lift at that point. Between having a shortage of bolts, sloppy fitting control arms and links (I did the same on the 3rd link too) and the funky upper knuckle relocation bracket I was quite frustrated. I also found that the polyurethane was quite soft. Almost too soft in my opinion. I like the way the vehicle handles on and off-road. Very sweet off road but I am concerned about the longevity of the poly bushings. I dont mean to badmouth a Canadian company but I do want to highlight the pros and cons of a suspension investment. I am very interested in how a Calmini lift compares. If any of you have experiences to share, please share them. In Zukinations defense, I have installed 2 different ZN lifts in 2 different sidekicks and they both needed different thicknesses of washers in different locations. So, maybe they design them this way to avoid fitment issues.
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When I talked to Geoff he stated exactly that reason, though a few of these issues really should be addressed and will be. If the center bushing is the correct length and the arms are being CNC cut and commercially available bushings used then the washer thickness should be universal. I did discover that the rear arms rearward bushing washer needs to be a slightly smaller outside dia because the crossmember starts curving over and the large washer doesnt fit flushly.
A little creative fitment is always required, especially with a frame that has seen alot of little changes here and there over the years.
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I figured that was the case, room for adjustments. BUT, for that much coin I think they should provide a small selection of washers/shims/spacers with each kit. JMO.
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Yes, a washer/shim kit would be nice but, I do have to say that it does ride like a dream. We went for a little rip yesterday and it handled admirably. Geoff told me that I would not be disappointed in the ride and he was right. We did a combination of gravel driving and washboards and rough hay field to test it out. I couldn't wipe the smile off of my face and I feel that it is worth the cost. It flexes very well through washouts and draws. When I am nit picky in this build, you must remember that I am kind of picking it apart so that future investors know exactly what they are getting. I wish that I had information like this available to me when I purchased it because then I would have had washers and bolts on hand prior to the lift's arrival. I have no regrets for buying it but in my particular-ness, I may complain about less than ideal circumstances. I feel that when you buy anything that is not custom tailored to your needs and desires, there will be shortchanges here and there. If not, you are just too easy to please. :)
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Glad to hear you have her on the road/trail ! ! ! The ride from what I was told, is what sold me on the 4.5" lift. From the sounds of your first rides, I made the correct decision!
Little things like the washers etc are an aggrevation for sure, but they are very easily handled. I have almost come to expect a few glitchs in everything that is custom in nature.
I am really looking forwards to getting mine finished up, probably not till next weekend though :(
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I am thinking of trying to widen (Hagen Style) the 4.5" lift to fit Toyota CV Axles in the front end, any feed back on that ?
P.S. Please post some video / pictures of this thing wheeling.
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With the knuckle already moved forward and out with this lift kit, don't know if the widening is necessary or even wise. Fitting Toy cv's would be a completely new mod since the ZN lift is so new.
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With all of that said, if caster was the real issue, I would like to see a strut relocation bracket/strut spacer that moves the whole strut forward with the knuckle thus negating the need for said upper knuckle relocation bracket. I would also like to see it moved to a location that compensated for camber too. If you have to make a spacer, it just as well do something. To their credit, their spacer is offset a little. I'm guessing it makes up for the rest of the difference that the thickness of the knuckle does not. I'm sure that this makes no sense to anyone but me but I trying.
The only issue with this, why I don't think any suspension company (Altered Ego, Calmini, etc) sells parts with a camber compensation, is because there are too many wheel/tire combinations and choices available to the end user. For example, if they sold a kit with camber adjustment built-in, designed for a 31x10.50 tire on a 15x8 rim with 2.5" backspacing, and someone used a 15x7 rim with 3.75" BS, and the camber adjustment was off, you can bet this customer would be complaining. Add to that the fact that not every 31x10.50 is a "true" 31x10.50 tire, as all manufacturers have different specs.
All of this creates too many variables to control, which would make it harder to guarantee a 100% compensation for camber.
From a production/manufacturing standpoint, it just wouldn't make any sense. By NOT having camber compensation, and by selling "adjustable" camber bolts and such, they can sell this kit to virtually anyone with all sorts of tire/rim/backspacing combinations, instead of limiting their potential customer pool to a select few customers with those certain specifications.
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What size and backspacing on wheels and size of the tires that one installs has absolutely nothing to do with camber or camber correction one little bit. Fitment is the only concern. It doesnt matter if you have +3" or negative 3" of backspacing the camber remains the same, and it also doesnt matter if you have a 10" dia tire or a 100" dia tire the camber does not change.
The altered ego strut spacers are INDEED CAMBER CORRECTED ! In fact each of their different height spacers each have a different correction factor.
And the Altered Ego 4.5" kit requires slots to be fabricated in the struts(if you dont buy their pre-modified ones) for additional camber control.
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True, diameter doesn't matter much, but the width/backspacing can change camber...smaller backspacing (aka wider stance) means more leverage upon the spring since the control arm acts as a lever with the fulcrum at the frame. The more leverage, the more the spring will compress. Less leverage can be attained with stock rims or others with larger backspacing (narrower track width) and the spring will compress less due to the decreased leverage. This difference in compression should have an effect on camber alignment (even minor misalign not visible to the naked eye).
The altered ego strut spacers are INDEED CAMBER CORRECTED ! In fact each of their different height spacers each have a different correction factor.
Damn, that sounds cool though. Different levels of adjustment. Sounds like yet another cool feature.
I really like what I've read about this kit and seen a few pictures it looks great so far. Would like to see some more pictures and rigs finished so start chaining that camera to you and good luck to both you guys installing it (thezuke and talonx)! 8)
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You can have 1 mile of backspacing and it WILL NOT change the camber one little bit regardless of whatever kind of leverage is applied, camber is measured in a static condition, NOT during suspension cycling, I can put 5" back spaced wheels on and put stock wheels on and the camber will be identicle between the two, the suspension sits in the same location regardless of the wheels installed. Sure the leverage will work the suspension more, but that can NOT change the camber in a static condition(when you measure camber)(the camber does change during suspension movement, all mcpherson struts change camber during operation).
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I beg to differ talonx, I agree with DJlantis on this and can say from experience. You are correct in THEORY, but where the rubber hits the road ther are REAL differences in effective, actual camber with different wheel offsets due to exactly what dj said: leverage at the fulcrum point.
This probably only applies to the Trackick front ends as it relies on the strut and coil length as well as weight to set camber. Most other IFS type suspensions have upper AND lower control arms and camber is not nearly as affected by coil, leverage and wheel issues, if at all.
You can set up your Trackick to have 0 camber (ideal) with one set of rims and tires, say 32" on 8" rim with 3.5" backspace and swap for a different offset wheel/tire combination and you will get a different camber setting because of the increased/decreased leverage caused by the offset changing the leverage point. I've swapped wheels and tire combinations, from a 8" with 32's and 3.5 backspacing to 5.5" stock rims with 31 swampers and almost no backspacing and indeed there is a noticeable difference in camber.
This is exactly why Calmini reccomends a specific rim backspacing for their lift, 3.5" I believe, to provide the correct leverage, ride height, and camber adjustability. Once your lift is all finished and you have the tires and rims your going to run installed, get a proper alignment and camber adjustment so it's set to factory spec, 0 degrees camber 0 degrees toe, and if you get a chance, just for ha ha's, swap to a stock set of rims and tires if you got them. You'll see the diff.
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I just cant see that. I went out and tried exactly that, put the 31's on(15x8x3.5"bs) and then installed the stockies and there was absolutely no difference in camber while sitting there. One thing you have to make sure of is that when you drop the vehicle back down that the front suspension be allowed to settle, as in just like on a alignment rack you have a slider that allows the tires to sit properly and squarely on the ground. Now when i didnt place wheel dolleys under the wheels then yes the suspension stays loaded and you will see a difference because the suspension is not sitting at the same height(not above ground, but as measured from the strut mount to A-arm(spring compression)), remember I did say that camber changes as the suspension travels through it's arc, what you are experiencing is exactly that, the suspension is not sitting the same. Heck even just lifting the front wheels up off the ground and setting the kick back down will change the camber measurement if dolleys are not under the wheels to allow them to spread apart and sit in their natural static position.
If you want a very real first hand experience with this go to a Polaris shop and check out any of their ATV's with mcpherson stuts when parked on carpet, jack it up and then set it back down, the ATV sits alot higher and the camber is very evidently different.
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it sounds like its time to agree to disagree. ;)
and you probably want your thread back. ;D
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LOL, yep that probably is best, LOL
I only take this position because I have spent 8 years campaigning a mcpherson strut equipped Honda in AutoX competition.
BTW, the reason for the bs requirement for Calmini's a-arms is clearance with the rim and arm when turning.
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Well, that was fun wasn't it. And yes, I agree with talonxracer that there is some camber adjustment and caster adjustment built into the strut spacers but, I just felt like maybe they could have done more. I slotted my struts as much as I can and barely have room to get the proper camber but that could be what they were going for. Having driven it, I think that they did something right and they know what they are doing. But, I do have to say that I have mounted two different sets of rims on my sidekick since installing the lift and there is no noticeable change in camber between the two but personal experience can present differences in opinions.
Sorry I don't have more pictures yet. Slow internet connection. Also, I've been working like a fool trying to get ready for its maiden voyage on a trip from Edmonton AB to Colorado Springs. Almost there. I just have a transmission leak that is starting to get on my nerves. Three speed automatic and I have fluid coming out of the plug connection on the left side of the transmission and some coming out of the seal around the gear selector shaft. Any ideas???
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I did modify the spacer blocks to attain even more camber, I simply bevelled the upper inner corner that hits the strut body, this allowed for alot more camber adjustment, I will snag a pic or two tonight when it cools off to an acceptable temp to do any work. When the temps hit above 90-95 degrees I start hibernating down in the cellar, LOL.
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I just have a transmission leak that is starting to get on my nerves. Three speed automatic and I have fluid coming out of the plug connection on the left side of the transmission and some coming out of the seal around the gear selector shaft. Any ideas???
Mine was leaking at the mod valve seal too, I used Lucas trans stop leak, worked like a charm. Just be sure it's low enough 1st, so you don't overfill the ATF & cause frothing. I used a hose & a squeeze bottle to draw about 1/2 quart of fluid out the fill tube.
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Also from What i was told by Geoff at altered, is that as the springs settle in, the camber adjustment range will be alot better as the chassis lowers and the strut goes more negative, I was told to expect 1-1.5" drop as the spring settles.
The 4.5" lift kit has been for sale for over 7 years now.
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I have a question, I had to cut out the stock lower arms in several pieces and had failed to take a length measurment of the stock arm/link, do you have a measurement for the length of the stock arm handy?
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If I remember correctly, I measured 18 3/8" but I will get back to you. I am running my new links at 19 1/4" in order to get the drive shaft far enough into the transfer case. My upper link is quite short. I just used an angle finder on the transfercase output and then on the pinion flange and matched the angle. Not quite sure I have it into the transfercase enough. I have the shield flush with the end of the snout on the case. It seems ok and I have no vibrations. Not quite sure if it is in enough.
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Someone had given me 18 1/4" so that is what I went by and set the lower links to 19.5". I had set the upper link to the spec in the directions, I think that needs to be changed though seeing I lengthened the lowers.
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I just re-measured 3 of the 4 links that were intact. I got 18 7/16 which may be a little too accurate for a tape measure and rubber bushings but they were all about the same. Between 18 3/8 and 18 1/2.
I finally got to the highway yesterday and took it for some distance driving. The ride on the highway was a bit stiff but I think that the springs in this one still need a little breaking in. The Sunrunner we put the lift in rides like a caddy but Rudy is kinda 3/4 ton truck like. Strange how the two could be so different but the sunrunner has had the lift in for about 3 weeks longer.
Just to remind you, I put the 5.13 diffs in it and with 235's it revs like a banshee just to keep up on the highway. About 4500 RPM at ~ 105 km/hr. I am going to have to find some bigger tires. Pretty peppy around town though.
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Cool, I had the lower links set at 19.5", but while setting the pinion angle i didnt want to set the upper link fully threaded in, so I lengthened the lower links a bit more, they are around 20" now.
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Well, the plan was to take the sidekick down to the States with Muskeg Tracker on a long trip but there were a few bugs that I could not work out. After my highway drive, I realized that there was a drive line vibration that appeared when I floated the throttle and decelerated. The rear differential got smoking hot too. Not knowing what it was, I started with the simplest thing and tried dialing in the pinion angle more precisely. No matter what combination of lengths I tired, I could not get rid of the vibration. I tried a spare driveshaft. I shortened the lower links to 19 1/8" to get the slip yolk into the t-case further.
To test for vibration, I put the axle stands and put it in drive. (making sure I had a straight shot if it by some freak chance it slipped of of the stands and jack). At about 60 km/hr the vibration would appear and not go away. I then removed the lift springs. Installed the stock springs and re-adjusted the pinion angle for the lower height. Stuck it in drive and no vibration.
As a last ditch effort, I called Geoff and he told me to lengthen my upper link. Tip the pinion back so it almost points at the t-case. He said I know this is against the recommendation for u-joints but they have had luck with it. He also said that they have had problems with using 235's and 5.13's and the 3 speed automatic. The harmonics of everything causes resonance within the driveline. ??? I was out of time and therefore had no more time to adjust the pinion angle again after messing with it for 2 days.
Talon, you may have problems with your lower links being so long. The slip yolk may be too far out. If the pinion gets tipped back, then that would lengthen out your upper link anyways. Hopefully you don't have the woes I've had. Approx 1/10 lifts Geoff has done have had these rogue vibrations and it has been everything from pinion angles to wheel balancing.
Sorry for not posting pics yet.
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Sorry to hear you are having issues. I have only taken a few short jaunts and have not had any balance issues, YET!, LOL
The upper link is close to to being bottomed out(maybe a 1/4" left) and I just took a few minutes to remeasure the lower links and they are a little under 19.5", I could swear i measured 20" the other day!
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I took the Kick for a spin and found no vibrations up to 55mph indicated(didnt go any faster), other than needing a alignment because of the toe out, it drives nice and smoothly.
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Congrats guys sounds like the install was a breeze. But I think we need some PICS! I'll bet I'm not the only one who wants to see 'em
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Congrats guys sounds like the install was a breeze. But I think we need some PICS! I'll bet I'm not the only one who wants to see 'em
Here you go http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-sidekick-vitara-geo-tracker-(gen-1-platform)-1989-1998/install-altered-ego-4-5'-lift-kit/ (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/suzuki-sidekick-vitara-geo-tracker-(gen-1-platform)-1989-1998/install-altered-ego-4-5'-lift-kit/)
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I found the 4dr calipers to provide more clearance with the coil spring and provides far better braking, might be worth a look for ya.