ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: Samurai_Hamster on May 09, 2004, 03:42:40 PM
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Ok I posted before but I cannot find the thread (too doggone tired)
I still have the knock and if you recall, I used a whole can of seafoam to no avail.
Today, I was on empty and I got a bottle of Greased Lightning from Advance auto. Dumped it in and filled the tank with Amoco 87.
Still got bad knock, obviously I know it hasn't gone through the engine yet to make a difference. Things to note, knock only occurs in closed loop at full operational temp. I also have noticed a tad of hesitation when I snap the throttle open from idle. This is both stationary and while driving. Could this be a TPS out of whack ya think? Telling the PCM to throw more spark advance cause the PCM "thinks" the throttle is open much further than what it is?
I got no check engine light and my "new" dealer is not gonna be in operation for a while yet.
There is a place that services foreign cars out 68 west of town. I could call and see if they got the tools for zukes.
Any more ideas? Things I could check? I have the FSM but no scan tools etc. Not even a damn ohm meter!
I am willing to entertain ideas short of torching it or driving off a cliff.
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Have you tried a higher octane? If so, for more than one or two tanks?
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Ok, Hamster, I'm just going to throw in my two cents here, I'm not saying this to open a can of worms here, but for my opinion, fill it with Premium. I've always used it in my Tracker, and been using it for the past 4 years in my wifes 94 Escort, the reason being is that it started knocking, but with the premium, it helps, also I used a fuel injector cleaner that is really really great. I'm trying to remember the name of it. But Advanced auto parts sells it, it's in a white bottle, I'm sorryI don't remember it off hand, when I do I'll post.
The thing with the premium is that it's only 10 cents a gallon more here where I live, at my gas station, so it's only an extra dollar to fill it with that on average. We had a guy with a Toyota Tacoma come in with burned valves, those 2.7 four bangers are good motors, and it shouldn't have happened, the general opinion is regular gas. premium burns cooler due to the higher octane, and is better for your valves etc. Like I said, I don't want to get into a big can of worms, but it works for me, I'd give it a shot if I were you. I know that our 2.0 doesn't have any settings for timing, it's all computer controlled. And believe you me, I'm no expert on anything electrical But why don't you give it a shot? It cant hurt. ;D
ps. the fuel injector cleaner is made by the company that has oil aditives as well, the display for the oil additive is on the parts counter where you turn the little gears with the crank and see how much better the protection is with the product over regualr motor oil. I wish I could remember the name of the company, I'll think of it. sorry, hope this helped. Dave :-/
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Isn't that the Lucas Oil Stabilizer ?
and Yes he's used the premium to no avail
I'm of the oppinion that the computer is
leaning out the mix, or just throwing in
some pretty agressive advance.
Have the timing checked, and get the dude
to ride along with the scantool plugged in and
recording while you drive, it will capture and store
the computer info while driving, and tell you what
you have going on.
Good Luck to you Hamster,
Wild
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LUCAS!!! That's it!!!! Sorry I couldn't remember the name, I was just trying to help with a cheap fix first. I didn't realize he tried it before. Oh well, it's worth a shot. Dave
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Have the timing check with a timing light. The timing might be off and create the knock and hesitation. You can also adjust without timing light. Just loosen the bolt holding the distributer and turn the distributer a bit to the left or right and open the trottle and feel the engine response. Do it a bit of a time until you get a good response at acceleration and idle. This is to be done when the engine is warm up and in close loop. Hope this help.
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I cont be any help to you , but just wanted to say it's good to hear your going to try and fix it instead of get rid of it ;)
Zig
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No dist. tsleong ;D
No I have not dumped hi test in it.  That's a thought, but at over 2 bucks a gallon.......whew.
Wild:  I tend to agree with you on the pretty aggressive spark advance.  The tailpipe is kinda black and a finger swab will come back black.
The PCM could behosed.  I like to think its something easy like the TPS.  I think its telling the PCM that the throttle is open a lot more than what it actually is and thus the PCM is putting out some pretty hot advance.
I hope to be able to get someone to ride with me so they can hear it for themselves.
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Ok I posted before but I cannot find the thread (too doggone tired)
I still have the knock and if you recall, I used a whole can of seafoam to no avail.
Today, I was on empty and I got a bottle of Greased Lightning from Advance auto.  Dumped it in and filled the tank with Amoco 87.
Still got bad knock, obviously I know it hasn't gone through the engine yet to make a difference.  Things to note, knock only occurs in closed loop at full operational temp.  I also have noticed a tad of hesitation when I snap the throttle open from idle.  This is both stationary and while driving.  Could this be a TPS out of whack ya think?  Telling the PCM to throw more spark advance cause the PCM "thinks" the throttle is open much further than what it is?
I got no check engine light and my "new" dealer is not gonna be in operation for a while yet.
There is a place that services foreign cars out 68 west of town.  I could call and see if they got the tools for zukes. ÂÂ
Any more ideas?  Things I could check?  I have the FSM but no scan tools etc.  Not even a damn ohm meter!
I am willing to entertain ideas short of torching it or driving off a cliff.
As a retired Certifed Suzuki Technician here's my two cent's worth. A knocking engine that only occurs in closed loop at full operational temperature and having some hesitation when the throttle is open from idle has the indication signs of a cracked block. If you have exhausted all your attempts to locate the knocking source the next step would to be dye test your engine.
This is done by putting an automotive dye pack in your oil and in your radiator and run the engine again till the symptoms return, then using a small black light check engine compartment for any signs of the dye also be sure to look underneath up around the bellhousing. :(
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No dist. tsleong
No I have not dumped hi test in it.  That's a thought, but at over 2 bucks a gallon.......whew.
WIld:  I tend to agree with you on the pretty aggressive spark advance.  The tailpipe is kinda black and a finger swab will come back black.
The PCM could behosed.  I like to think its something easy like the TPS.  I think its telling the PCM that the throttle is open a lot more than what it actually is and thus the PCM is putting out some pretty hot advance.
I hope to be able to get someone to ride with me so they can hear it for themselves.
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Cracked block?
Hmmmm how could that be?
I should say that this is spark knock, not a rod or main bearing knock and the ping is RPM specific and temp specific.
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Might of helped if i typed something in previously!! Not awake i guess.
Anyway, hamster, I've been following this a while and didn't have anything constructive to add. Your comment about the black tailpipe confused me a bit and got me wondering. My Sami has the same black sooty tailpipe (has since I've owned it) I don't have any knocking, but, I do run premium in it. I guess the only thing I can say is my fuel mileage isn't great, but it's not real bad either. So what does all this mean?
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Did you say it pings when hot or cold?
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I am willing to entertain ideas short of torching it or driving off a cliff.
Well then between you and me there's one really good cliff and that's at Camp David. Your only a few hours away from me, you could take your zuki bungie jumping without the bungie or I could bring 1/4 sticks and primacord and we could toast it like a marshmallow! (http://www.rokzuki.com/misc/smile/newburn.gif)
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Did you say it pings when hot or cold?
Only when hot when ECM is in closed loop mode.
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Only when hot when ECM is in closed loop mode.
AutoZONE can read your ECM to see if you have any DTCs. For free... That may help... BTW: even inexpensive scan tools, $125 or so, can really help out with modern day troubleshootin'.
Good Luck, Eric
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suzuki fault code reader ... cheap as chips
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[url]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10426&item=2476880508&tc=photo[/url]
suzuki fault code reader ... cheap as chips
Only goes to 96, not OBDII compliant so that would be useless to me.
Also, I have no MIL light so I am concerned that a scan won't reveal any abnomalities.
A discussion with a garage this AM said OBDII is pretty tight with regard to leeway and anything out of the ordinary would fire a MIL indicator right off the bat.
Maybe it is carbon? I am checking on boroscopes so I can probe inside the combustion chamber to see how much if any carbon is present.
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Only when hot when ECM is in closed loop mode.
ok, htis sounds like a problem i had many many years ago w/ a new chevette (as in 1982, first new car err POS).
Wasn't injected, but had some type of ECM for what I don't know. The thing would run great until it got up to operating temp. I took it back MANY times and they kept saying it checked out fine. It was really starting to frustrate me (similar to you...cliff, torch etc.) Finally they made some kind of mechanical adjustment to the cold air inlet damper on the air intake. Problem solved.
Now I realize it's a completely different vehicle, and I don't know zip about your zuke, but maybe this gets you closer to looking in the right spot. Good luck!
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I've learned that the PCM depends on the sensors to give inputs however each sensor has a "priority" in terms of what position in the loop it sends data to the PCM.
For instancce, in open loop mode, its reading off pre mapped software in the PCM to operate the engine.
In closed loop, it pulls data from O2 upstream and downstream, VSS, TPS, MAP, MAF, CMP, CRM, ECT, Air intake sensor..........et cetera
What I don't know and the FSM does not make clear, is which sensor "ranks" interms of priority. For instance, all OBDII engines will read of the O2 sensors as priority 1. TPS has to figure in there too as does the MAF. QUestion is, which "value" from which sensor takes precedence over the other sensors.
For instance, the knock sensor will only override the CMP sensor when it detects knocking due to excessiv engine vibration. However, it can only go so far to retard the timing after which it pings like crazy.
Next, where does the MAP sensor come into play? What values does it send to the PCM and when does it send them?
I suppose I will have to go glassy eyed and read the manual some more to gain insight as to where the sensors fit into the equation.
SIgh.................... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::) ::)
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O2 is priority 1, but the critical inputs are
all the ones you you listed.
Black tailpipe, not supposed to be like that
on a 2002, mixture is rich, which could be the
ECM trying to counter act the detected ping.
The ECM backs off timing and richens the
mixture to counter act the ping, so if the
ECM is wacked and not backing off timing,
the only other solution is fuel (Black Pipe)
Hmm, crankshaft angle sensor bad ??
what is the trigger for the spark ??
can it be moved for adjustment ??
Just thinking out load, and I could
swear you put Super in the little Hamster.
Ohh well, I ran super for years when I first
did the turbo, then added an intercooler, now
I can get away with 87 instead.
Wild
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God I hope not the crank sensor. Gotta pull the tranny to get to it! Talk about a stupid boneheaded mornic piece of cow crap design!
Cam sensor is on back of head running off the Exh cam (its a DOHC motor)
I did the "finger in the tailpipe" (no, not THAT tailpipe) and it came away black but not excessive. Water washed it off w/o soap. (Yes I did use soap on me wittle hands later)
Sunday I popped another airfilter in it. Thought that might help and I romped it a bit.
Weird thing is, I can be at 40 or so in fifth gear, stomp it, and one would thing that under that kind of lugging, I'd get detonation or pre ignition big time. But nothing, no peep. However, if I hold it like this to say 50-55 or so then back off on the throttle halfway and hold it, then its ping time big time.
I still think its the TPS out of range telling the PCM that the throttle is open much farther than it is. Per the FSM a 71 degree change in the angle (like blipping and holding the throttle open) is supposed to cut out the AC compressor. Well, I played with that this weekend and manually blipped the throttle just a tad. OFf goes the AC! I mean a barely noticable quick move of the throttle shaft!
FOr the life of me, I wish it would throw a code just so I have some thing to go with. As of yet, no MIL.
AUtozone said they'd read the ECM for free but did not promise anything as far as codes being stored.
WIll hit them up tomorrow night.
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Went to Autozone. NO codes found.
Going to try to get to the next closest dealer in Wexford and see what they can come up with.
Probably not much.
"they all do that"
"we can't find the problem" (because the stooge tech had the fan on high and the stereo cranked so it would mask any noise)
"unable to duplicate customer complaint" (meaning: we never even started it up)
"didn't get to it" (because its warranty work and we don't get paid for that)
"bad gas" (never mind I've used gas from all different stations in the county)
"ain't hurtin' nuthin'" (ok, let f&&& up your vehicle so it runs like mine and see if it still ain't hurtin nuthin)
"scanner didn't read any codes so therefore there is no problem" (meaning: we rely on chinese made scanners to do the part of diagnostic skills despite my ASE patch on my left sleeve saying otherwise)
"never saw that before" (meaning: unless its a flat tire or an engine on fire, I have no idea how to approach the problem)
"didja buy it here" (or, hey, we really have no reason to make you happy since you didn't buy the vehicle here)
Et Cetera. Probably going to be a wasted day listening to a drone spew nonsense from a script worthy of slapstick comedy.
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Hammy, you didn't understand my post.
you need to find an independant repair,
they should have a Snap-On Scantool,
it does real time data logging, and will
record what's happening IE too much advance,
O2 readings etc.
A friend with one that will do it as a favor,
as mine does, is a bonus, but if you have to
pay them a few bucks to figgure out the
problem it could be worth while.
Wild
PS and if you have already tried this I have
2 options, Moab has some really tall cliffs
and I can set you up with a turbo and a
MegaSquirt EFI CPU :)
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That's all fine and dandy wild, but this is a warranty issue. At least that's my opinion......ummmmm lets see 3/36 bumper to bumper.....yup, I say its a warranty issue.
I am not too excited about forking over money to fix a problem that can/should be covered under warranty.
Out of warranty, sure, I understand its my baby then.
I am guardedly optimistic that this other dealer will be able to shed some light on this.
Otherwise, this thing is otta here. I don't need headaches; I need a vehicle that works. Period. Its all I got to drive and it needs to perform. Simple as that.
I know the payoff and what its worth so I have some wiggle room here.
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This sucks man. I know how you're feeling. I hope things work out. Nothing is worse then hearing the same old crap being spewed out of people's mouths.
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WELL YOU KNOW AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY RUNS OUT THEY'LL KNOW WHATS WRONG. BEEN THERE DONE THAT .............................MATTY 8)
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Suzuki water temp sensor had been know to go bad very fast. I had work on a V6 2.0 and the ECU just flooded the engine every time. Disconected the water temp sensor and it ran fine with the engine light on. Replace it and it is running normal. This is an idea, maybe you disconect your water temp sensor just to rule out the fault. Bad water temp can cause the engine to run rich or lean. Hope this help.
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Hansen auto will be up and running MOnday as a full line zuke dealer. ALready, he's got 40 rigs on the lot plus cars.
Met the owner, he's gonna hook me up with warranty work when they get the paperword signed.
Keep your fingers crossed.
Good news is, this place is literally downhill from me so if the hamster croaks, I can coast there. Maybe make a hagen jump over the curb too! ;D
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That is good news! I hope they can solve the problem.
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When he looks at it, you might have him check the EGR valve.
I had the same problem (from nearly new) with my 94. We finally found the EGR ports (in engine and EGR valve) needed a good 'reaming.' I'm gonna try out something other than premium fuel, now.
Looking at octane, I came across an interesting article. Many engines have ping detection. If you run too low an octane fuel, they'll retard the timing. (This results in lower MPG, more carbon & lower performance.)
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That is good news! I hope they can solve the problem.
They're not quite ready for prime time. A guy rode with me and it knocked a tad but not bad, it was cool and damp!
He tried to pass it off as a heat shield but I blew him outta the water when I asked, why then does it not do this when motor is cold?
He returned a "nobody's home" look on his face.
I have an appointment in Wexford June 3 at another dealer that IS up and running. We'll see. If I get more shit from this dealer than that's it. This thing is outta here.
If I had to guess, I'd say TPS as the spark knock is contingent on 1. fully warm, closed loop 2. Position of the gas pedal; only a certain position of pedal (and TPS) as well as RPM makes it knock. Floor it, no knock. Keep RPM under 2500 or so, no knock. Cold engine, no knock.
I know the TPS has to tell the PCM the 1. rate of opening of the throttle plate and 2. the actual position its at. My contention is the TSP is still within spec and responds to the 5v reference voltage but I think its "stuck" at the far end of the scale telling the PCM that I am at or near WOT and thus the PCM will 1. provide a LOT more spark advance.......2. Lengthen the injector pulse width to throw more fuel in order to provide more power. That and along with 1. a slight blimp in the throttle cuts out the AC compressor (it does this by design but only when the throttle blade passes 54 degrees of travel within a specificed time frame....ie a ssssssloooooooow push down to WOT won't kill the AC) and 2. a slight off idle and part throttle hesitation .
Well that's my theory anyway. What I am solidly convinced of is most Techs, ASE certified or not, rely too goddamn much on the "scanner" to do the thinking for them. If there ain't no code, then gee.......I can't find the problem. Meanwhile, rome is burning and my valves are a knocking. Duh!
What I am learning is that Suzuki has a way to go in customer service before it can really hang with the big dogs.
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I mentioned this to my neighbor. His GM was having the same knocking problem you mention. His mechanic thought it was piston slap. They proved it was pinging by using some octane booster. (They bumped octane to about 120, he said, and the knock went away.)
That stuff is $3-4 a can, so might be a good place to start.
I don't know about 'Zuki, but if premium gas will stop the knock, GM wouldn't fix it. (That was their first "solution"... run a $47 can of carb cleaner through the engine & told him to run 3 tanks of premium.
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That's an expensive "solution"! ??? >:(
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That's an expensive "solution"!  ??? >:(
Agreed. They charged him $35 for a 'warranty' service call & $12 for a $3 bottle of injection cleaner.
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I've dumped enough cleaners, etc into my tank that I think its running on chemical compounds instead of gas!
I have June 3 set aside for a trip to a dealer in Wexfor.
Just got back from a trip up I79 to grove city and back and it was a knocking big time. FIlled up with Citgo gas 87 octane and its sipping that now but still knocking.
But you know, I don't give a f**** any more! actually, I hope it throws a code or worse, blows a piston. At least then it will be so broke dick that no dealer, unless they're smoking crack, will be able to cop out and say, "I can't hear the problem"!