ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: bentparts on September 11, 2011, 02:48:50 PM
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I'm trying to put the Calmini 4 2 1 gears from the tcase I got from 37kicker into my old stock tcase which is in much better shape. I can't get the clutch reduction gear off the main shaft of my original tcase, won't budge. Same clutch gear came off the case I got from 37k without a problem. I've tried heating with map gas torch, 3 jaw puller, it just won't budge. Any ideas would be GREATLY appreciated. Yes, clip has been removed.
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Freeze it overnight and try again?
Not exactly sure what your talking about, but that's on my end. Did you happen to look at the gear installation article we have on the 'site? It may help... or at least get us on the same page as to what part you're trying to pull. I think your talking about step #13.
From the Gear Guide section:
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_010103/feature_calminirockcrawler_sidekick.htm (http://www.zukiworld.com/month_010103/feature_calminirockcrawler_sidekick.htm)
Eric
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Yep, step 13 allright. I mispoke, it's actually the clutch reduction hub. I was using the sites gear install article, as well as the FSM as a guide. First ( old ) case came apart easy. Examination showed the face of the clutch hub scored pretty good. I soaked the hub in the replacement case with PB, gonna let it sit. The tcase it's in has been sitting for 4+ years but it was sealed and there was no noticeable corrosion on anything inside.
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The lock ring seems to make a little ridge around the splines, and makes the
hub hard to get off, otherwise a gear puller may be in order, I've had them
stick and hang, but never that bad.
Good Luck
Wild
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Thanks Wild, the only gear puller that will fit between the two gears is pretty small. I've been letting it soak overnight in PB Blaster and I'll give it another try after work today. If I can't get it off I guess I'll need to look for another Tcase.
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What a stubburn BITCH!!! Came home from work and went right at it, Nothing, nada, ziltch, didn't budge. At least I figured out where all the noise and grinding sounds were coming from. First, the drive chain is totally streached and sloppy, twice as much play as my replacement case ( my original case) and both the face of the clutch hub and the gear face it rides against were scored from a lack of oil getting to them. I talked to Mike who builds all the transfer cases and transmissions at Trail Tough and he gave me a great tip: galling between those two parts is a known issue with a certain mfgs gear sets, so he always grinds some oil grooves into the clutch hub face to get more oil to it. If I can ever get the damn thing off I'll do just that. IF I get it off.
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:'( I give up. Wasted another hour and 45 minutes messing with that thing. I've spent more time trying to get that damn clutch hub off then I did pulling all the skid plates, and removing the damn tcase. Looks like I'm getting another decent used one to try, hope the hub comes off this one. Man, the shit we go through for our Zuks.
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You could knock the shaft out all the way so there is room to
work and get it off, just a thought
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You could knock the shaft out all the way so there is room to
work and get it off, just a thought
I'd have to disassemble the back half of the tcase, and even so it's so stuck I'd probably crack the case trying to knock it out. Screw it, I found another tcase. I just hope this one comes off. If the rest of the old tcase parts weren't so worn out I'd just resurface both gear faces and call it, but the whole thing is just WORN.
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Ya, once you are into the case, it's not much more to take it all apart,
but anyhow you got a replacement.
Don't forget to remove the middle detent ball bearing so you can do a
twin stick while you are in there, or have you got a twin stick for it?
If you have not, do it, it is so cool having 2WD low and turning with
a front locker is a dream, I did most of the trails in Moab in 2 wheel
and only hit 4WD when I started to slip or got stuck, and it really takes
a lot of stress off the front driveline and the t-case chain too, I recall
how loose you said one of the cases chain was, so .....
Wish I were closer, I'd come over and help you with the little $#%&*
Good Luck
Wild
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I agree with Wild.... def do the twin stick while you have it apart, you wont be disappointed.
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All ready got the twin stick setup, and you are right, makes it so much easier and nicer to drive. If I didn't put the Calmini low range gears back in I could be up in a matter of hours, but their just too good to leave out. Looks like I'm going to be up on the jackstands for awhile waiting on the newer case to arrive. Just as well, it'll give me time to get under there and wash off the accumulated mud and gunk from a summer of Jersey rain, and I've been puttin in 12/14 hrs a day lately anyway so evenings are pretty much wasted. When it rains it pours. Oh, and thanks for the help offer Wild, I wish I was closer to any other Zukers. Kinda funny, none of the guys I've been out with have offered. I guess I will start charging for rescues now! :laugh:
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Took a chance and dropped it off at a local trans shop to see if they could do something with it. I won't know until mon or tues but hell, can't hurt.
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Update: still haven't heard from the trans shop. It's probably still sitting in the milk crate I dropped it off in. I hate waiting for other people to do work for me that I should be able to do myself. I'm abobut ready to just pick the damn thing up and CUT the old clutch hub off.
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Yea, it can get aggravating. Let us know how it works out and what they had to do.
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FU*K!! After waiting for almost a week, I finally got pissed enough to give them a call. It's been sitting under the builders bench gathering dust and finally he told me he wanted $95 to dissassemble the case and press the gear off. I told him to put back in the crate and I'll pick it up. I'm going to pull the whole thing apart and try using a bearing splitter in my 20T press to get it off. What a waste of time. Just in case, I was able to get another decent tcase from another member. Just waiting for it to arrive from Iowa. :laugh: :laugh:
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That thing will probably pop off so fast with a press you will wonder what was holding it on
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...the saga continues.
fwiw, I have 1/2 dozen pullers from small, for steering wheel type, to ball joiint size, to very large (pull props from yachts).
you *might* convince me to come down there w/the right 'enticements'
btw- our RC membership is up in November; are we going to make a trip?
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Love to have any help John, hint, hint. Wife works every other Saturday, so getting away for the weekend is problematic right now. I however still get most weekends off so could join you and the wife for a bit o camping. Holla back, we'll set a date.
Wild, Yeah, I'm pretty sure the press will remove it, it's getting to it that's the issue. Once I pull the back off the case and get everything off the countershaft, I still have to get THAT out of the case with the counter gear still attached. I've been studying the FSM, but need to actuall see it to figure it out. Picking it up this morning, Got my 50 hours this week in 4 days so have most of today to mess with it.
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That thing will probably pop off so fast with a press you will wonder what was holding it on
this was my experience. i ended up dissassembling a couple of times after the press as i figured out how to fit the gears together(japanese wood box). i was able to tap it apart with no problem.
i also had to adjust the shims for the countershaft as the new gear(trail tough stuff) caused a bind on final case torque. no biggie, but watch for it.
great mod
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Well, got it all apart, ( spare case) the press made fast work of it. Both the low output gear and clutch hub were stuck, but pressed off easily. After going through the old case ( took them both right down to the bare shafts) I could see where all the noise and binding were coming from. Countershaft and main in old case had so much play in the bearings the shaft wobbled visably, I mean 16th"! Shaft itself was scored and worn under the gears too. On top of that the 4 wheel drive chain was so streached it wouldn't even fold and the drive gears had deep tooth groves in them. Good news is, My stock spare case that was originally in the Tracker is in Excellent condition, very little wear. Shafts, Drive chain, gears and most bearings are great. I say most because the rear center case main bearing took a hit getting everything pressed off. Local bearing supply will have one for me Mon morn.
All the Calmini gears and bearings in the front case look great except for the faces of the clutch hub and input gear where they ride against each other. I'm going to attempt to lightly sand the faces on a peice of glass ( nice and flat ) then polish them, and cut the oil grooves in the back of the clutch hub, as reccomended by Mike at trailtough.
Fortunately for me, years ago I picked up a GM dealer special tool set off ebay that was complete, and has all tools necessary, bearing installers, seal linstallers, removers etc, so putting everything back together should be much esier than getting it apart. I've got some pics of everything I'll post a bit later.
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very good.
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More damage found. Once I pulled the remainder of the front case apart and removed the Calmini gears from the shaft ( they at least slid off ) I found the locating ball for the thrust bearing was gone, either ground up or ? By the looks of the thrust bearing and face of the gear it rides on the ball had come out of the locating hole or was never installed correctly and rode around under the thrust bearing eventually cutting a channel into the gear face and thrust bearing before grinding itself to powder. The damage was at least .03 deep or more in the gear face, thrust bearing completely shot. This is a problem, I was able to clean up the back of the gear where it rides against the thrust bearing, and I have several spare thrust bearings and balls, but removing that much material from the gear means I'm going to have to come up with a shim to take up the difference. I have a stock of shims of various sizes from building Harley motors and I'm going to try them first. If that fails I'll give Trailtough a call to see if they can help.
Burned up main shaft, used up drive chain on top good one on bottom. That's as far as it would fold. Gear damage.
I was able to clean up the faces of all the other gears no problem removing only the minimum amount of metal to achieve a smooth finish, but this one really took some work. Hope it's still salvagable.
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Can-O-Worms man, I bet that case was run dry on oil, and the retaining ball
was never put in because they are a PITA to install with the low range gear set
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Can-O-Worms man, I bet that case was run dry on oil, and the retaining ball
was never put in because they are a PITA to install with the low range gear set
Sure looks like it. Strange since I got it from a well respected member of this forum, and I've always serviced the fluid.
I remeasured everything and it turns out I only had to take off .012 to clean up the gear face, and a shim on the countershaft doesn't look necessary. With everything polished up and new oil grooves cut into the back of the clutch hub I put the front case back together ( it's a lot easier to install the ball with the front off the case ;D) and everything seems good and spins smoothly.
Been working on dressing up the teeth where both clutch hubs are supposed to " slide " on and off ( had to press the rear one off too) but am getting nowhere, at least very little progress. Looks like I'm going to have to figure a way to press them back on somehow WITHOUT damaging the center bearing. Man, I could have just bolted in my good low milage stock case with twin sticks and been done. Those super low range gears sure make the difficult stuff a bunch easier though. At least I'm learning a bunch about how the tcase works. :P
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Picked up the replacement bearing this morning on the way to work and had the case back together and shifting smoothly in about 90 minutes once I got home. On the bench at least, it turns smoothly and quietly and shifts with a nice snick. Gotta make a new boot for the top of the shifter and bolt it back in.
This type of repair is what happens when maintenance and inspection intervals aren't followed. At the first sign of apparent noise and vibration I should have yanked the thing, but to it's credit it and in spite of my neglect, it kept on working for quite awhile in it's sorry state. A testament to it's original build quality I believe. The locating ball coming out and the probability of it being run low or out of oil at one time is what killed this transfer case.
If the clutch hubs would have come off the original stock tcase like they were supposed to this job would have been cake. But the way I see it now, I'm grateful Suzuki builds such a tight quality product. :laugh: Crash course in Tcase 101.
I had the advantage of having a Dealer Service Tool set to work with including some of the pulling plates and bearing installers needed, but still had to cut some lengths if stainless tubing and stack shims under the output in order to put both clutch hubs back on. Even after dressing the teeth on both the mainshaft and hubs they were still both tight fits and had to be pressed back on. They are tough little buggers ;D
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Gotta make a new boot for the top of the shifter and bolt it back in.
The shifter to t/case boot or the shifter to tunnel boot?
Suzuki only supplies the shifter to t/case boot (the #1 boot) with the shift lever, at a ridiculous price of course - I've had success using a cutdown boot from a steering rack - you need to select one where the narrow part of the accordion pleat is a snug fit on the t/case shifter neck.
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The top of the selecter cover where the twin sticks come out. I had a boot steup from Rock4Fab, but it was made from very thin rubber and split in several places, and really didn't seal very well. I'm just going to use a chemical and oil proof rubber glove and make my own boot from that. I already have shifter to tunnel twin stick boot for the cab ( From Curry ) and it's held up very well. All I had to do for that was make up a new plate to hold it in.
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...i'll pattern/create a boot for you the next time we we get together.
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Cool, nice to know someone who can use a heavy duty sewing machine!
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Good job, im sure there were alot of four letter words thrown around on this project.
Would i need some kinda puller if i rebuild my tranny?
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You'll no doubt need several kinds of pullers and bearing installers. Some I'm sure can be had over the counter, but others I've found are designed specificlly for a paticular purpose and fit. I noticed in the FSM that many of the same tools used in the transfer case for the Trackicks are used in the manual transmission as well. Not sure if they will work on the Sammy stuff though. Maybe someone who knows Sammy's better could tell you. I do know one thing, It may seem a bit intimidating at first tearing into a manual trans or transfer case but it's really not as bad as it looks, providing you have the right tools.
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You'll no doubt need several kinds of pullers and bearing installers. Some I'm sure can be had over the counter, but others I've found are designed specificlly for a paticular purpose and fit. I noticed in the FSM that many of the same tools used in the transfer case for the Trackicks are used in the manual transmission as well. Not sure if they will work on the Sammy stuff though. Maybe someone who knows Sammy's better could tell you. I do know one thing, It may seem a bit intimidating at first tearing into a manual trans or transfer case but it's really not as bad as it looks, providing you have the right tools.
Yeah, my mechanic showed me, on his computer, a complete diagram of my tranny and i was kinda stunned to see how many parts are in there, but i am confident that with the FSM, you all, ACK and my uncle i should be able get this done with alot less expense than i would if someone else did it. I know NAPA let's you put a deposit and rent a tool for 10 days and then they give you the money back. So if i need something specific and don't have the funds to buy a new one, i mite just do that, but i recently made a good friend he's in his late 40's and he lives on 5 acres and has a boat load of tools and parts, so i will probably talk to him first once i start compiling a tool list.