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ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Suzuki 4x4 Forum => Topic started by: zuki1018 on September 19, 2011, 07:45:57 AM
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Hey folks, looking for some tech knowledge.
The 96 16v I pulled from the scrap yard was missing the dizzy. I am trying to determine if the ECM recieves input from the crank angle sensor for spark, fuel, or both. Basically, does the dizzy rely solely on cam position.
TIA
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I know OBDII has, and needs, a Crank Position Sensor.
I bought an OBDI Engine and had to switch a couple things before putting it in.
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More specifically, I want to stay away from wiring the crank sensor. I am trying to run this engine with Megasquirt, not the factory ECU whatsoever.
I am just not sure if the 96' setup is like older domestic motors where the dizzy/spark/timing is independant from any 'computer' and knows TDC by cam position. I dont have a dizzy to try so i cant go this route without spending money.
TIA
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Let me see if I understand what you're attempting ...
You have a 1.6l, 16v engine with no distributor, and you want to run it with a Megasquirt - you don't want to use the crank sensor, and you don't want to buy a distributor.
I've never used a Megasquirt - but - it doesn't matter what engine management system you choose, it MUST have some sort of timing reference - either some sort of crank position sensing - or some sort of cam position sensing.
I don't understand your reluctance to buy a distributor, but, lets assume you plan on running a distributorless igntion system - either two coils in a wasted spark configuration (which by the way Suzuki did use on the later versions of the 1.6l, 16v engine) or quad coils - you're going to need a sensor either on the crank or on the cam to tell it which coil to fire when.
Let's go the other way - you're going to run a distributor to handle the ignition - and lets assume you can find one completely self contained with no connection to the ECU. You still need a sensor on either the crank or the cam to tell the ECU at a minimum, how fast the engine is turning because that determinesthe when or how often fuel gets injected - if you run batch fire injection - or if you're going to run sequential injection, it also determines the where or which injector to fire.
Are you getting the point here? Your ECU MUST have a timing input from either the crank or the cam - the easiest way is probably to get it off the distributor which is how Suzuki does it. You don't HAVE to do it that way, but if you don't, then you're going to need another sensor somewhere - the advantage of an aftermarket ECU is that you have a wider range of choices as to how to do the sensing - but it still has to be done.
Oh - to answer your question - the 96 setup is not "independent from any computer" - it is an input to the computer, and since the computer controls the igntion advance and determines when the plugs are fired, in a way, it's also an output from the computer.
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I thought you had this thing running with the coil packs. Are you trying to change the programming?
Acks Faq has the Factory Service Manual you need for the 96 engine, you can find it over at http://www.acksfaq.com/trackerfsm.htm (http://www.acksfaq.com/trackerfsm.htm). If you look at 6D-8 there is a picture of the distributor, I believe the camshaft sensor is built into there. That is what tells the stock computer system where TDC is.
The crankshaft position sensor is located inside the oil pump, there should be a spot on the front of the oil pan it fits into. The 96 and up have a different crank pulley then the 95, it has the notches on it similar to what you did with the sensor on the main pulley.
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Thanks for the quick responses guys.
Yes i currently am running wasted spark on 300m coil on plugs using a 32-1 crank mounted wheel and Ford VR sensor I made a mount for. MS is controlling fuel and spark. I ran this breifly (appx 30 miles in all) before having the timing/cranking issues I have had now for the past month.
For starters, VR sensors are super sensative to electrical noise. Each one can be completely different. I worry about reliability on back roads with the Megasquirt trying to do the signal conditioning itself. I also am not happy with my custom mount location low on the engine since I run through mud here and there.
Option 1 is my preference... for now its to get the 96 distributor and use Megasquirt to control fuel only. Yes I will need a tach signal from the dizzy. I just am not sure if the distributor's pickup/cam sensor inside the dizzy itself knows TDC or if it rely's on the factory mounted VR sensor and 5 tooth wheel. I know the cam turns twice the crank but some dizzy's have a seperate pickup inside... say 1 hole and sensor for TDC. I may have confused my reply. I dont mind buying a dizzy but I would like to know whats ahead to get things in harmony before spending the cash.
Option 2 is I have an EDIS-4 and can use that on my existing setup (with some changes to the MS board and external wiring). Since the Ford VR sensor and EDIS used to be a match, the EDIS will take care of the signal conditioning for me.
Looks to me like 6D4-2 in the FSM does show a 4 tooth cam position wheel and pickup sensor. 4 teeth with none missing and lack of having an additional single tooth tells me the dizzy alone has no clue where TDC is. I guess this makes sense as the ECM controls timing as you say and there is no manual adjustment on the dizzy itself. Any options for a compatable vac. advance dizzy?
Thanks again!
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The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly, the 96'+ use electronic ignition advance with integral coil, while the earlier distributors use mechanical and vacuum advance with a seperate coil.
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The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly, the 96'+ use electronic ignition advance with integral coil, while the earlier distributors use mechanical and vacuum advance with a seperate coil.
I was tempted to make that very same statement last night :) what he actually means is that with the distributor alone the ECU will have no clue where TDC is - and I believe the same is also true for the crank position sensor alone.
A crank mount wheel with a missing tooth - which is what he's using - is probably how I would have approached it.
I think the "pre 96" distributors tilt (as in to the left/right of the cylinder head) & rotate (clockwise/counter-clockwise) the other way - I think I've read that they can be made to work by swapping the gear - but don't quote me on that, I could be wrong.
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The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly,
In other words, your saying in the 96 electronic advance distributor, it will fire plugs without any input from other sensors or ECU (but not be able to advance timing based on them)?
But wiith only a 4 tooth pickup in the dizzy, it wouldn't know which rotation the crank was at as the cam is 2x the speed right?
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I was tempted to make that very same statement last night :) what he actually means is that with the distributor alone the ECU will have no clue where TDC is - and I believe the same is also true for the crank position sensor alone.
A crank mount wheel with a missing tooth - which is what he's using - is probably how I would have approached it.
If I can use the 96 dizzy (or alternative), all MS needs is a tach signal. I wouldn't be able to control timing, only fuel maps. This is what I am after at this point. I want to simplify things until I can figure out how I want to control spark down the road. My sami distributor/coil could possibly work but the housings are different nor will the sami dizzy fit the tracker housing.
I think the "pre 96" distributors tilt (as in to the left/right of the cylinder head) & rotate (clockwise/counter-clockwise) the other way - I think I've read that they can be made to work by swapping the gear - but don't quote me on that, I could be wrong.
By tilt/rotate do you mean to advance/retard timing?
Does anyone know if the pre 96 dizzy and housing will 'mechanically' fit the 96+ head (with or without swapping cam gear)? That sounds like the ticket to me.
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The distributor is mechanically linked to the camshaft, it will ALWAYS know where TDC is located at if set properly,
In other words, your saying in the 96 electronic advance distributor, it will fire plugs without any input from other sensors or ECU (but not be able to advance timing based on them)?
But wiith only a 4 tooth pickup in the dizzy, it wouldn't know which rotation the crank was at as the cam is 2x the speed right?
The confusion here is in your concept of TDC - you are looking at it from a "combustion" event point of view - which is incorrect.
TDC or top dead center is the point at which the piston is at the top of it's stroke - it has nothing to do with igntion or injection - it occurs twice per combustion event - once between the exhaust & intake strokes and a second time between the compression & power strokes - your difficulty is that you need to know not when a cylinder is at TDC but when it is at TDC on the compression stroke because that's when you need to ignite the mixture.
The distributor ALWAYS knows which cylinder is on the compression stroke - it's the one the rotor is pointing to.
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By tilt/rotate do you mean to advance/retard timing?
No - the tilt refers to which direction the cap and leads go. Stand infront of the engine and look at the distributor - if I recall correctly the 16v distributor is tilted top to the left, and the 8v distributor tilts top to the right.
The rotation is clockwise/counterclockwise looking down at the rotor - the 8v rotates one way (don't remember which) and the 16v rotates the other - and yes - this does impact the advance/retard of the timing.
Does anyone know if the pre 96 dizzy and housing will 'mechanically' fit the 96+ head (with or without swapping cam gear)? That sounds like the ticket to me.
That's the piece I'm not certain on - I have this recollection of being told that it can be done - but I have not tried it personally.
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I'm not sure about the mounting for the 16V, I have one of these dizzys in an 8V motor, the camshaft position sensor is a hall effect sensor with 4 vanes to trigger it. The ignitor is triggered from the ECU, it will not run independently like on some US vehicles.
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On the 16v you need the ECM to get a spark, the ECM is what decides the timing. I will try and get my Tracker FSM this weekend and take a look at it. There is an entire section on the firing and fuel injections system.
When we 'advance' the timing we are manually moving the distributor forward of advanced of where the motor thinks it should be. If you connect an ODBCII computer you can actually watch the timing adjusted live. You can then connect a timing light to verify that it matches what the computer thinks it currently is.
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??? Good lord man, how hard would it be just to put stock stuff back in it and make it run right ? I'm gettin a headache just trying to figure out why you want to do this in the first place.
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??? Good lord man, how hard would it be just to put stock stuff back in it and make it run right ? I'm gettin a headache just trying to figure out why you want to do this in the first place.
Come on man - have you never done something just for the challenge - like maybe turbo charge an engine ;)
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The confusion here is in your concept of TDC - you are looking at it from a "combustion" event point of view - which is incorrect.
The distributor ALWAYS knows which cylinder is on the compression stroke - it's the one the rotor is pointing to.
Thanks for the clarification!
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Does anyone know if the pre 96 dizzy and housing will 'mechanically' fit the 96+ head (with or without swapping cam gear)? That sounds like the ticket to me.
That's the piece I'm not certain on - I have this recollection of being told that it can be done - but I have not tried it personally.
I took a quick look at the back of my sami cam last night. I didn't see any sort of pin or retainer that holds the gear on the back of it. Not sure without a bit more looking/digging how one would swap the gears.
Good lord man, how hard would it be just to put stock stuff back in it and make it run right ? I'm gettin a headache just trying to figure out why you want to do this in the first place.
Ya probably much much easier. I chose my direction for full tunability on a future turbo'd rig. Also when I leave my comfort zone and try a new route, I learn a lot of things. Keeps my brain occupied. I will be a megasquirt pro here before too long!
Here is part of the build diary:
http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/build-up-87-sami-1-6-16v-megasquirt/ (http://www.zukiworld.com/forum/build-diaries-how-to-diy/build-up-87-sami-1-6-16v-megasquirt/)
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Whew, what a project. So i went to my pick n pull and lucked out on a 96 dizzy. I will be scouring over this option next week (bow season is open here!).
I actually went out there to look for the rig i orig. pulled the cam housing from (later distributor less model) to snag the cam shaft.
Kudos for all the comments guys. I will update as i move forward. I may have a EDIS-4 COP setup up for grabs!
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I took a quick look at the back of my sami cam last night. I didn't see any sort of pin or retainer that holds the gear on the back of it. Not sure without a bit more looking/digging how one would swap the gears.
ahhh - swap the gear on the distributor ??
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??? Good lord man, how hard would it be just to put stock stuff back in it and make it run right ? I'm gettin a headache just trying to figure out why you want to do this in the first place.
Come on man - have you never done something just for the challenge - like maybe turbo charge an engine ;)
Well, yeah, but it seems that doing the turbo was much easier than this mod. Gotta hand it to you zuki1018 you are definitely up for a challange! I hope you get it worked out as it may have future implacations for my turbo setup. Could always use better fueling. ;)
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Thanks. I was not against using the factory Ecu and harness. I was just missing the dizzy and already had the Ms box. In fact I had started tearing into the harness.
All in all after my full write up it will be pretty easy to do. I think using the stock dizzy will be my recommended method. We will see next week! Honesty the most work has been scouring the fsm tracing each wire color and its function to wire it correct into Ms. Countless hours of wiring! I plan to offer up a diagram here for others. Hmm i wonder how many prestige points that is worth!!!
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It's worth a BUNCH of Prestige points, but I can only give you 1 at a time ;)
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I actually went out there to look for the rig i orig. pulled the cam housing from (later distributor less model) to snag the cam shaft.
I just noticed this - there is a version of the 16v G16 engine that is distributorless and has no crank sensor and depends only on the cam position sensor for timing information - you might need the entire head assembly though, because I think the cam position sensor fits into the head.
I'm not certain which US vehicles would have had this engine - we got it in the 98+ 1.6 Grand Vitaras which were wither not sold in the US or would have been quite rare - 99+ 1.6 2 door Vitara/Tracker - and possibly the later 1.6 Esteems.
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Ya I didn't pay attention to the year or make. The cam sensor housing mathches the 16v dizzy housing bolt pattern. That was I was talking about early on. I used the housing as a block off. The sensor reads a wheel on the back of the crank. This wheel is obviously different than the dizzy gear on my existing 96 cam. I'm learning as I go but hind sight I woulda grabbed the coil packs and cam off that later model from day one. But really.. how important is sequential or even wasted spark vs a dizzy on a low boosted lower rpm application. I do like the cleaner engine bay though.
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Using a distributor is in essence a sequential spark system, and wasted spark is an
easy way to time an engine with only half of the ignition inputs, really the wasted
spark system could add better resolution to the timing by giving more time between
inputs
As a side note, you could modify a distributor with a timing pickup to feed info to the
MS system. The MS is a very flexible system and all it needs is the input information
to deliver the outputs
Keep it up, good work
Wild