ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: TheRadBaron on October 25, 2011, 02:54:26 PM
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Hey guys, this is my first post here. I just bought a '91 4x4 Tracker that's in pretty good shape.
The headlight low beams work fine, but I have no high beams. When I turn on the high beams, the hi-beam dash indicator light comes on, but the headlights go dark. I'm pretty good at automotive wiring, but I'm not familiar with the way these headlights are wired. I'm accustomed to the setup that has three leads at the headlight. One is ground, one is for high and the other is for low.
That doesn't seem to be the case on my Tracker. None of the terminals in the headlight pigtail go to ground, and I think two (maybe even all three, I can't remember) of the terminals have 12 volts on them even with the headlights off. The wiring diagram in my Haynes manual reinforces that, though it doesn't at all explain how they work.
Can anyone clue me in on this? I'd like to get my hi beams working. The Tracker also shows signs that someone has modified the lighting wiring in the past. I can see the holes in the bumper where aftermarket lights were once mounted, and there are some sort of in-line diodes spliced into the tail light wiring. Everything except the high beams works just fine, so I haven't looked into it too much yet. Thanks.
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I would not trust the haynes manual, far too many discrepencies, but it is about all i have found. I have been looking around for a FSM that shows the chassis wiring to verify the wiring scheme but havnt found one, looked over on Ack's Faq's and couldnt find anything either.
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your head lights do have 2 hots and one ground Suzuki grounds threw the switch the hot for the light is hot all the time when you turn the lights on the switch closes the ground they are backwards from how you think they should be
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Honda uses the same wiring scheme with the lights having power applied whenever the parking lamps are lit and the ground is in the combo switch completing the circuit for the high or low beams. If there is voltage on every wire on the headlight connector(must be removed from the light to check or it will backfeed the ground and show voltage) there is probably an issue within the combo switch.
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Hmmm. I'm having a tough time getting my mind around that. I understand the concept, but I'm having trouble figuring out how it works, exactly. The idea of the switch making the ground is simple, but I'm wondering how the combo switch switches between the two filaments using only one ground wire.
I'm an electrician by trade and I've been doing wiring on cars and motorcycles most of my life. I'm sure that the answer is simple, but I have had a few drinks tonight. I'll think about it some more in the morning. Thanks for the info.
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Hmmm. I'm having a tough time getting my mind around that. I understand the concept, but I'm having trouble figuring out how it works, exactly. The idea of the switch making the ground is simple, but I'm wondering how the combo switch switches between the two filaments using only one ground wire.
I'm an electrician by trade and I've been doing wiring on cars and motorcycles most of my life. I'm sure that the answer is simple, but I have had a few drinks tonight. I'll think about it some more in the morning. Thanks for the info.
Turn the diagram upside down - or - mark the ground as positive - that's all that's different.
Here's what you're accustomed to ...
+12v to fuse, to combo switch, two wires from combo switch to bulb filaments, bulb common to ground.
Here's how Suzuki does it ...
ground to combo switch, two wires from combo switch to bulb filaments, bulb common to fuse, to +12V.
I've omitted the main lamp switch/relay for simplicity, it goes just downstream from the fuse.
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Sorry that I mis posted, duh, I dont know why I got it incorrect other than a early happy hour.
there is a single common +12vdc that is always keyed hot and supplies both the high and low beam while there is two grounds that are used to switch between high and low beams on each headlight.
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Thanks guys, that's good info. Armed with a clear head and some good, concise explanations I got the concept all figured out. The actual problem was even easier to figure out. Both high beam filaments were burnt out...duh.
In my defense, they both looked fine to the eye. They had burned out in such a way that a resistance check was needed to diagnose it.
With two new bulbs in the lights, the high and low beams are burning bright. Thanks again.
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I'm gonna tag in a different problem that I have on my Samurai. My drivers side headlight is dim while the passenger side is fine. I haven't looked at the service manual yet but tthought maybe one of the resident experts here might share a simple direction for me to check out / repair.
I did check a different headlight which made no difference. I have also cleaned all of the vehicle grounds previously as enhancement maintenance for an older off road vehicle....
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!!
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Is it dim in both high and low beams? If so, I'd guess that maybe it was a problem with the 12v supply. If the headlight schematic is similar to the Tracker (my Haynes manual says that it's basically the same, but Haynes is known to be wrong from time to time), there's a separate fuse for the left and right headlights. If you haven't already done so, I'd check the voltage present at each headlight. Unplug the headlight connectors and check from the hot terminals to a good engine ground. If the dim side has less voltage than the bright side, I'd look for a bad (high resistance) connection somewhere between the fuse box and the headlight.
Another check that would be worthwhile to do would be to check the voltage available at the actual fusebox. Remove the two headlight fuses and check from the fuse terminals to ground. One side of the fuse terminal should be hot with the fuse out and the other side won't be. The voltage should be a equal (approx. 12 volts) at the hot side of each fuse terminals. If the dim side is low here, the problem is in the fuse box.
If this doesn't turn up anything, report back and I'm sure that it can be figured out. Another option that's always a good idea is to wire the headlights through relays. This would fix your problem for sure and also give you brighter headlights due to less voltage drop at the bulbs. Most of my vehicles are wired this way. I've never done it for this switched-negative headlight setup, but it would be simple adapt.
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Check also and make sure the correct bulbs are being used - apparently there are bulbs which are physically interchangeable but have different wiring configurations at the base and a dim light in both high & low beams is one of the symptoms reported.
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Sorry for not posting a reply sooner... I forgot to check the notify box... dang! It is dim at both high and low beam. I have Halogen headlights and have tried the OEM lights in it as well but it made no difference.
Since I just read this I havent had a chance to look at it more. I will start at the fusebox and check the fuses if there are in fact 2 as indicated. I would be surprised if there is since the Samurai fuebox is soo small, but ya never know.
I like the relay idea but need some help on how to do that. I am all for a cleaner set up and brighter lights for sure....
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I had a problem similar to yours Tux, and it turned out to be corrosion in the fuse box where the fuses contact the box. i removed the fuse box and used some acidic soda ( coke or pepsi works) and a brush to clean it out. Hope this helps.
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Thanks man. I will give that a look / try. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Crazy Busy!!! I did take some time to travel today and score a hard top, 3 doors, with glass . and a primo targa bar today for $400 samolias....
I see new 1/2 doors being made soon for next spring.... ;D
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Other project are always getting in the way ;). I forgot to mention... Make absolutely sure it's dry before you re-install the fuse box so it doesn't cause more problems. It's obvious but I figured i should mention it :D
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I had a few moments late last night after I installed a new targa and a hard top to do some checking at the fuse block. I pulled the main fuse and both headlights went out which I expected. Then I placed the main fuse back into the block and pulled both R / L headlight fuses indivdually. To my amazement no change that occured. I would have thought that once the fuse was pulled for either one that particular side would go out because the circuit should be broken.
Is this normal or is the Gremlin lurking behind the fuse block awaiting my arrival if I remove the block?
Is there a work around without removing the block?
I don't have any type of testor (voltage or OHM) but have enough friends that do if I need to locate one.
Once I locate the problem and repair it can someone tell me more about how to wire in relays? I like the way that sounds...
Thanks in advance for those who are willing to locate a Cyber Hand!!! ;)
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If I read your post as I normally would (be warned, I do tech support for a living) - it says you pulled the main fuse, and the headlights went out, and then you pulled the R & L fuses one at a time, and the headlights stayed out - which is what I expect to happen.
On the other hand - reading between the lines, I suspect you put the main fuse back and the lights came back on (and never mention it) before pulling the individual fuses and that when you say no change occured, you actually mean the lights stayed on - whiich is not what you expect, but which is actually correct.
Try it again, but do it at night, you should find that the headlamp you removed the fuse from is not as bright as the other.
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Fordem... add mind reader to your list of qualifications along with Tech Support. :laugh:
I modified my post after your reply.... maybe it makes a tad bit more sense.
In the begining my drivers side headlight was dim and the passenger side was bright. During the "test" last night this remained the same while removing the indiviual lamp fuses. There was no visable change with the fuses in or out.
It was as black as the Ace of Spades outside where the vehicle was sitting with the headlights on..
(note I said outside where the vehicle was sitting with the headlights on.) I say this because in my earlier post I did say last night however didn't define that I had the headlights on in the dark. (Just funnin ya some I knew what you meant too...) and I appreciate you setting me straight with your reply...
Anyway, as I said I thought there would be some visable change to the headlights when removing the individual fuses. There was none.
I am pretty sure that I will end up removing the block. Unless there is some other magic to brighten up the drivers side light correctly.
If I remove the block what might I expect to find? How are the wires attached to the firewall side? Is the soda method previously described a reliable method or is there a better method?
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Tux - you have some sort of bad connection somewhere .
I would start with the headlight bulbs themselves - verify that they are both the same type and also the correct type - if necessary swap them from side to side and see if the problem transfers with the bulb. The reason I am suggesting this is that I believe there are two different bulbs which physically interchange but the base wiring is different - we don't use the same bulbs as you do - and you will get that always dim symptom that you describe.
I also have to confess I've never worked on a Sammi's electricals so I don't know what you'll find - I just have the experience that I can sketch the circuit from the diagram and then add in the current flow and tell you what to expect if a given fuse is removed or a wire cut. Ask me specific questions about a Swift or a GV I can answer those, I've hand wired looms for kit cars, sat down and repaired auto tranny harnesses after a dog attacked them, I can find my way around a schematic and in many cases around the vehicle without the schematic - and there is no question - I could fix your truck if I was standing next to it.
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Somewheres you are back feeding your light circuits, either a bad ground, or a added in piece of aftermarket electrical equipment.
Electrical issues are very hard to diagnose and troubleshoot remotely, it is entirely a hands-on job.
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Fordem, I appreciate you and the others trying to lend a hand! I have switched the Halogen headlights from side to side previously and it made no difference the drivers side stayed dim and the passenger side bright no matter what headlight was there. This holds true to low beams as well.
I did check try different OEM style headlights which made no difference. I have also cleaned all of the vehicle grounds that I could find previously as enhancement maintenance for an older off road vehicle.... I did this approxamately 4 months ago. I bought this vehicle a year ago and have been doing alot of upgrades along the way. I have pretty much gone through most every nook & cranny with the exception of the engine / tranny / differentials.
It is an 87 and has been driven both on and off road with moderate maintenace along the way. I guess I am saying this to give folks an idea that it was necessary by my standards to inspect / remove / clean / repair items as what I call precautionary maintenance and for me to familiarize myself with what I wanted to / needed to do to get me where I ultimately want to be. (Were getting there)
I am mecahnical enough to do the work as I have built lots of 4wd vehicles, retored Corvettes, work in a machine shop. If given the right info and a good starting point I believe I will get this repaired with no problem.
You guys are a BIG HELP and as time permits I will tackle and KILL this Gremlin!!!
THANKS GUYS!!! ;)
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you could just use a Bosche 30amp relay to fire the headlights and simply bypass your existing wiring.
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How do I wire the relay into the headlamp switch circuitry? Can I utilize the existing hot wire for that particular headlamp?
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First you need to make sure your combination switch is working properly, go to ack's faqs and download the electrical FSM, then use a meter to check the switch for proper operation.
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If one side of the lights work properly, which is what I think is happening, then the combination switch will be fine - it controls both lights - the problem has to be either the feed to the lights or the wiring in between the lights.
You'll need a volt meter to work on this.
Hook the black meter lead to the battery negative and use the red meter lead to probe the head lights connectors - you can usually ease the socket back a little so that it stays on the lamp base, but shows enough of the three connectors that you reach them with the probe.
There are three wires behind each head light - red and red/white on both, and white/red on the right side and white/blue on the left.
With the headlights ON probe the white/red and white/blue wires - you should see the same voltage on both and it should be close to 12V - if it's not check the headlight fuses and the wiring from the fuse panel to the headlights.
Select low beam - probe the red/white wire on both lights - you should see the same voltage on both and it should be close to 0V - if it's not check the wiring between the headlights - they are connected to one another and to the combo switch.
Select high beam - probe the red wire on both lights - you should see the same voltage on both and it should be close to 0V - if it's not check the wiring between the headlights - they are connected to one another and to the combo switch.
If you run into trouble let me know which step didn't have the right voltage - close to 12V is anything between 11 & 13, close to OV - up to 1V is acceptable - for the purposes of this test.