ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Beginner / Repair => Topic started by: rbparker on October 30, 2011, 05:22:30 PM
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Hello all. All this nasty-ness is fresh from the re-install.
My engine runs rough at idle and through rpm. You can really feel the vibrations from the clutch/gas pedals and the transmission shifter; the transfer case shifter has no vibrations. I also feel some vibration in the seat. At 60mph I turned off the engine and all vibrations went away. Also when de-reving a knocking like gears slapping comes from the starter area. I've had this same noise with a 1.3 starter, it started when I smacked the starter with a hammer (no wood) trying to get it to work. The starter passed the test auto stores provide. The noise went away when I upgraded to a 1.6 bottom end as the starter was changed. I want to say that this noise and the vibration are related. No power has been lost.
I checked the starter to see if maybe it was loose. I checked that the plug wires were connected and orientated correctly. I I played with a timing light and could'nt smooth anything out..
My transmission was seeping oil so I pulled it to lay a silicon bead. I had to take off the center force clutch (one with sliding weights) before their was enough room to get the transmission out. In taking the clutch off the disk needed relined during install. With out a guide pin (thanks center force) I was only able to orientate the disk by feel. The input shaft slid into the disk with no problems. When re-installing the coil I was unable to find a wire diagram in my service manual showing the +/- leads on the coil. I hooked up black to - and brown to +, it started up so I have not changed it. I could'nt see a backwards running coil being capable of causing so much vibration. I also installed a new clutch line while everything was out.
I'm at a total loss, help would be wonderful, Thanks.
Parker.
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The guide pin is part of the flywheel and not part of the pressure plate, whomever surfaced the flywheel removed the pins and didnt reinstall them.
The clutch is balanced with these guide pins in mind, they need to be reinstalled into the flywheel.
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I think he was talking about the plastic dummy pilot shaft missing in the kit. you might have destroyed the pilot bearing putting the trans back in.
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The 6 (i think) guide pins the help set the pressure plate are still pressed into the flywheel. It has been resurfaced but by professionals with extensive race experience, the pins were re-pressed. Again the engine ran smoothly before I took the transmission off. The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.
I know that ACT provides the plastic guide pin when you purchase one of their pressure plates. Again, its just a plastic guide with a tapered end on the flywheel end and an eye hole for grip on the other end. The guide acts like the input shaft from the transmission and is pulled once the pressure plate is tighten.
I was thinking that the transmission was misaligned from the engine and tightened the connecting bolts to the MAX. The rear transmission mount needs replaced badly, but does sit in the cradle.
Ill keep the thought that a flywheel pin came out during the un-install/re-install in my mind as I could see an unbalance like that to cause what I'm feeling. The pressure plate was installed without a hitch.
Thanks, Parker.
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Mr. fuelish.
Great Idea. The input shaft did slide into the teeth of the disk, but I did not try squeezing the engine and trans together by hand as I was alone. I used the connecting bolts to squeeze the last 3/4 inch by bolt and felt no resistance. But yah I may have destroyed the pilot bearing... I've put around 50 miles on everything since the re-install.
You don't know any symptoms of a DESTROYED not warn pilot bearing do you?
Thanks, Parker
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I doubt that you destroyed the pilot bearing, it is solid brass. You may have been able to tighten it up with the clutch in misalignment and with the transmission jackshaft sitting on side of pilot bearing. That would cause an unbalanced clutch and bad vibrations, it would take a lot of force to do that which would prevent it from jumping in place. I have used large screw drivers with sockets slipped over them to create a sort of alignment spline successfully. You could probably get an alignment tool from the parts store also. If you were close I'd give you one, cause I have two.
If you have caused a burr on the edge of the pilot bearing from riding out of place, just take a larger drill bit and chamfer the edge of hole a little. The pilot bearing is there to keep the jackshaft from wobbling when the clutch is in (not engaged). When the clutch is engaged with proper alignment it also holds the jackshaft in place, and the pilot bearing is turning at the same speed as the jackshaft so there should not be any wear on the bearing then. It really takes a lot of time with the clutch disengaged to wear out a pilot bearing. Automatics do not have pilot bearings they use the torque to hold it in place.
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every Suzuki That I have put a clutch into has had a ball bearing type pilot bearing in it, even with a racing type clutch, these rigs are just about perfect when it comes to machine work, the transmission if lined up properly will slide right in by hand.
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The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.
Ahh ok the clutch alignment tool..
You can very easily destroy the pilot bushing without properly using the alignment tool, I know this as I tried the same route as you several years ago when the tool wasnt included and I was in a hurry to get the clutch installed(I since bought a universal alignment tool to use on any clutch) and the input shaft jammed the pilot bushing in further and made it cock sideways.
The two zuki clutchs I have installed in sidekicks both had solid brass bushings, no bearing style pilot bushing.
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Thanks for the reply brd.
That would cause an unbalanced clutch and bad vibrations, it would take a lot of force to do that which would prevent it from jumping in place.
I lost you in the bold.
I have used large screw drivers with sockets slipped over them to create a sort of alignment spline successfully. You could probably get an alignment tool from the parts store also.
If I understand the screwdriver socket idea correctly, one would need some sight to overlook the alignment. Would work well if the motor or transmission was out of the car and one was in a hurry without the guide. I have to align the disk while the transmission is propped up by a jack inside the trans tunnel as far back as possible. So being able to see ANYTHING alignment wise is impossible.
I aligned the disk by feeling the distance between the teeth of the disk and the edge of the pilot bearing. I took 5 minutes just feeling around until I was satisfied with what seemed a consistent gap length around the circumference of the disks teeth. Hope that makes some sense. I'll send center force an e-mail and see if they will ship me a guide "on the house". Otherwise if It comes to taking the transmission back out ill order one from a parts store.
I have watched some "bad pilot bearing" videos and I'm not hearing anything familiar.
Do you think their is enough clearance depth in the bell housing to allow the tapered end of the input shaft to not fit in the pilot bearing? My gut tells me there's not, but my gut has mislead me a time or two.
And also just to not forget... Some noise also started after the re-install. I want to say its the ring gear on the flywheel slapping the starter gear, that what it sounds like and seems to be coming from that area. When the engine is running under load you can hear it, and as I "engine brake" the noise gets louder.
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The guide pin I'm talking about is a plastic pin that lines the clutch disk center to the flywheel and pressure plate.
Ahh ok the clutch alignment tool..
You can very easily destroy the pilot bushing without properly using the alignment tool, I know this as I tried the same route as you several years ago when the tool wasnt included and I was in a hurry to get the clutch installed(I since bought a universal alignment tool to use on any clutch) and the input shaft jammed the pilot bushing in further and made it cock sideways.
The two zuki clutchs I have installed in sidekicks both had solid brass bushings, no bearing style pilot bushing.
Haha yes theirs the words I've been looking for! Clutch alignment tool... haha.
You logic seems soild and I cant disagree with jamming the pilot bearing. I'm sure its a ball bearing style, I pressed one in from a rebuild kit. At least my memory tells me it was a bearing. I aligned the disk by hand when I rebuilt the motor outside of the car. Maybe that boosted my ego a little to high.
You're logic is making me think I need to re pull the tranny.
Thanks, Parker.
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10-4 on pulling the trans, I have seen people pull those pesky weights off of the pressure plates on purpose to keep them from doing bad things also, they are made for high rpms extra pressure but sometimes stick at low rpms and get in the way. take pictures when you find out if you pushed it back or pushed the guts out, the bearings will fall out and could mess your new clutch up.
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Will do on the picture part. It might be a couple days until I get to pullin. Right now the Samurai is the only vehicle in operational condition. Living 12 miles from civilization I'll need to make sure the "time" is right. Also should order an alignment tool and bearing/bushing for the clutch before the ripping begins.
Why did I get a bearing and not a bushing in the rebuild kit? Well more-or-less should I order a bushing if possible?
Even though I hate your logic, its looking like I'm going to thank you.
I will say, after tightening the bolts "to the MAX" (aluminum v.s steel in mind) and moving timing from about 10d TDC to 17d TDC the vibration did subside a %'age. The "ring gear/ starter noise" however stayed the same. A part of me is saying that this noise and the a-new vibrations are not related though they started at the same time. Maybe I set the starter on the concrete ground to hard? I've had this headache before with the 1.3 engine/starter (after hitting it metal to metal) and it did not carry along any vibrations at the start its clanking sound.
I love the internet and this website for its awesomeness of connectivity. Honestly I can't thank you all enough for your help.
Parker.
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Oh, and I forgot. Do you know of anything I can get my hands on that talks about the removal of those weights on the pressure plate? I don't know much about why they are there and would like to know some more info before I just go cutting. I'll be looking around the web for some answers myself, but figured you might know of the tell all link.
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I'm not supposed to mention links like pirate4x4.com but the locals here are more into driving over stuff than drag racing so they remove the weights (probably with a hammer and screwdriver hitting them towards the hole on the fingers) because the stock 1.3 does not have enough horse power to need them, the faster the pressure plate spins the weights the weights use centrifugal force and apply more pressure to the disk, but the centerforce has way more pressure by itself than a stock one. hope this helps.
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If you are having starter engagement with the flywheel without hitting the starter, you probably are setting on the side of the pilot bearing.
I would try loosening all the bellhousing bolts (without removing them) and remove the back transmission mount and see if you can wiggle the transmission into place. If the bellhousing slides up tight on all sides (with loose bolts) the jackshaft is inside the pilot bearing. It is worth a try and may save having to pull it all apart.
Right now with the bolts tight I suspect that you still have a gap on one side of the bellhousing.
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I'm not supposed to mention links like pirate4x4.com but the locals here are more into driving over stuff than drag racing so they remove the weights (probably with a hammer and screwdriver hitting them towards the hole on the fingers) because the stock 1.3 does not have enough horse power to need them, the faster the pressure plate spins the weights the weights use centrifugal force and apply more pressure to the disk, but the centerforce has way more pressure by itself than a stock one. hope this helps.
Not like it matters but I got the 1.6 bottom end! And yah I drive over stuff with the Samurai, drag racing a Samurai... :-\. Those weights do make some annoying noises.
Thanks, fuelish.
If you are having starter engagement with the flywheel without hitting the starter, you probably are setting on the side of the pilot bearing.
I would try loosening all the bellhousing bolts (without removing them) and remove the back transmission mount and see if you can wiggle the transmission into place. If the bellhousing slides up tight on all sides (with loose bolts) the jackshaft is inside the pilot bearing. It is worth a try and may save having to pull it all apart.
Right now with the bolts tight I suspect that you still have a gap on one side of the bellhousing.
Nice will do! ;)
My only complaint with my thorley header is that its impossible to access that bottom trans-engine bolt and nut while its on. I'll get to wigglin the trans today. Maybe I'll get crazy and go the whole 9 yards if the wigglin doesn't work for me.
The transmission is flush to the engine. The only way I could have a peek into the bell housing would be to take a grommet off. I'm worried that I pressed the pilot bearing in at an angle when pressing the tranny to the engine.
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I have used Centerforce clutchs many, many times on everything from a Acura to a Pontiac Trans Am and I wouldnt remove the weights, they apply extra clamping force with ANY rpm and gets stronger as the rpm's rise through centrifical force, and with such a small friction surface on the zuki's, every bit of clamping force is needed especially with larger tires. You might as well just get a stock replacement clutch if you plan on modifying the Centerforce.
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Thanks for your concern Talon.
Hey I race a talon too, lol.
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Alright so I got to pulling the transmission out today. Actually didn't take long at all, being it the 2nd time in a short while.
Once I got the clutch and transmission out I took a glance at the pilot bearing and this is what I saw.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3582.jpg)
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3589.jpg)
Its set correctly and was not pressed further into the flywheel and at angle like I figured.
It also feels completely smooth (less and 5000 miles). The ball bearings have not "turned to dust" like I have read from other horror stories.
Then I began looking at the at the ring gear on the flywheel (concerns with the starter) and something caught my eye.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3592.jpg)
One end of the ring gear has been shaved and the other side hasn't. And as it turns out the shaved side faces the bell housing, or the rear bumper.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3593.jpg)
The other end faces the engine block, or the front bumper. As I felt this sides edge facing forward I felt beat up surface. Getting a good picture of this edge in focus was very hard, so you kind of have to find the areas in focus.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3606.jpg)
I'm left wondering, is the ring gear on the flywheel backwards? I would bet an arm that if the ring gear was flipped around and still allowed the starter teeth to engage while the solionod saw power; that the starter wouldn't slap around while I'm driving.
But in its defense all was quiet, smooth, and non-slappy before I took everything apart. So I dunno ???
I skipped the idea of wiggling the tranny free and then re-attaching it. When I got under it I noticed tranny fluid! WTF?!? So I just ran with it and found my sensors to be leaky. Its just my luck and this luck is the sole reason I only work on my cars. Sometimes I question why I contiune to tinker with fun stuff and just go buy a kia... I guess the best things in life are earned.
Also got a universal clutch alignment tool. Figured any work was futile without properly aligning the disk. The only place within 30 miles that carried it was NAPA and the thing was nearly $40 bucks after tax! Autozone only carries alignment tools with their clutch packages, they don't sell them individually ???. Center force is getting an e-mail. Anyway figured I'd take a picture of it in case someone realizes that it won't work.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3635.jpg)
Hopefully everything gets tied up tomorrow and the test run doesn't have me pulling out my hair.
Parker.
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I might of missed it But did you have the flywheel and the pressure plate Balanced at all?
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No I haven't. The flywheel was turned by a reputable source and the pressure plate was just thrown on. Doesn't the pressure plate come balanced? The flywheel does have drilling holes for balance, but that's from the factory.
But I would need some logical convincing to get me to think I need to balance my clutch assembly.
1. I don't know everything, but I've never herd of having to balance a clutch assembly for such a "stock" or low powered car. with multi disk clutch assemblies for 800+ hp engines I'd see you're point a little more relevant. But if I'm the irrelevant one please, let me know.
2. My drivetrain preformed flawlessly before I re-installed the tranny. THE ONLY THING I DID WAS RE-INSTALL THE TRANNY, no new bell housing parts.
I'm not trying to sound harsh I just don't want to spend the time buttering it up.
Thanks for your input.
Parker.
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Well I have built race engines for a living in the past, balancing has more to do with RPM than horse power, I have had complete Assembly's balanced and put the engine together only to take it apart and take it to another shop to have it rebalanced and it makes all the difference, but yes they can have a Bad day from the factory.
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By the way can you take a pic of your input shaft on the trans. does it have any wear from the pilot bearing?
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Yah will do the next commercial break. :P
Thinking about it, the only other type of engines I've worked on have a harmonic balancer which could account some Suzuki in-experience.
I forgot to mention, if it matters. Things seem to vibrate worse while I'm turning.
Thanks fuelish.
Parker.
edit*
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3642.jpg)
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well the shaft does look to have some wear and tear to it,if you have the old bearing laying around I would do a test fit on it or if you have the money pick up another new one and see if it fits tight, if so I would see about having at least the pressure plate balanced if you have a shop near by.
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The old bearing was horrible and even if I did still have it I wouldn't use it. What if I filled the wear with a metal putty/jb weld? It doesn't seem to be a high stress area. Its a laughable and ghetto idea but being a few months from a payday I need to budget the money I have.
From what I'm reading balancing isn't necessary as parts are balanced from the factory. Not saying a machine shop could add weights to dial everything in more finite. I notice the "bad" vibrations while turning and at around 2200 rpm. On the highway turning the engine at 4k is actually smooth besides the vibrations correlating with the starter clanking around.
Half a year or so ago with the 1.3 and stock pressure plate I noticed the same noise immediately after tapping the starter metal-to-metal. This was while it had the bad pilot bearing in it. After changing to the 1.6 starter (kept the 1.3 flywheel w/ new pilot bearing) the clutch disk the clattering did not occur. During all this the input shaft was kept the same. I don't feel like the wear on the input shaft is from the 120 miles I put on it from the install.
I'm trying to think of how a misaligned or loose input shaft would have the same results I got when I hit my starter. I tested the starter, its fine.
lol, I'm writing a book here in hopes of solution. Sorry if I seem to be a bit of a repeat.
I'd say the two owners before me used the truck as a "weekend warrior" having fun romping around and put it away wet. Its amazing to think that the body is in extremely good condition.
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The end of that input shaft looks to be rather screwed up/wobbled over. If the input shaft is not riding tightly within the pilot bearing it entirely defeats the purpose of the bearing.
I have seen where a new starter is installed and works fine for a bit and then starts hanging up as well, we traced it down to the condition of the ring gear teeth. We attacked the teeth of the ring gear with a file & arkansas stone and cleaned up the burrs and rolled/chipped edges of the teeth and this gave the ring gear some more life.
I have micro balanced many a rotating assembly, micro balancing of the fly and pressure plate with the rest of the rotating assembly always greatly improves vibrations compared to relying on the vageries of manufacturing tolerances. Just doing the fly and pressure plate will see benefits as well, I have seen many factory fly's and PP's that are each within spin balance tolerance seperately, but when bolted together they are then out of balance.
Also driveshafts that are not properly phased when reinstalled can appear as engine vibration with weak mounts.
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([url]http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3635.jpg[/url])
Hopefully everything gets tied up tomorrow and the test run doesn't have me pulling out my hair.
Parker.
That looks close to my screwdriver & socket tool. At least now you will have the right size sockets available.
Did this problem start with a reinstall, or when you swapped the bottom end with a 1.6? Or was it present with the old bottom end?
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1...I have seen the tips of input shafts worn much worse than that and it didn't cause any vibrations. I would say that is not the source of the issue.
2...I have never heard of a balance issue with the clutch setups on trackicks or samurais. The flywheels are balanced individually during manufacturing and the clutches should be balanced when made too. I would look elsewhere for the issue.
3...You can flip the starter ring gear on a samurai flywheel. But from your pics, it doesn't look that worn and I don't see that being the cause of your problem.
4...Did the shop grind both surfaces on the flywheel? From your pic, it looks like they only ground the stepped surface and not the surface that the pressure plate bolts to. If they didn't do both, they did it wrong and that could cause some issues.
5...You did remember to put that thin metal spacer plate inbetween the engine and tranny, when you put the tranny in, didn't you?
6...I am wondering if you have a broken motor mount, or transmission mount. Have you checked them?
7...If you want to "fix" the worn input shaft issue, without spending much money....get a wider pilot bearing, so it runs on the non-worn part of the shaft. I've done this fix to a trackick and it works great. Look on zuwharrie in the IFS section for my thread on a wider pilot bearing to fix a worn input shaft. It has pics and part numbers in it.
2. My drivetrain preformed flawlessly before I re-installed the tranny. THE ONLY THING I DID WAS RE-INSTALL THE TRANNY, no new bell housing parts.
So the only thing you did between the no vibration and the vibration is remove and reinstall the tranny, right? You didn't put in a new clutch? You didn't replace the starter? You didn't do anything else to the vehicle?
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Talon.
I thought of filing down the ring gear but then though, why not just flip it around?
About the balancing, I'm not disagreeing with you, I believe you. But because I know this clutch has worked without vibrations, living where I do, and since I'm not going to transport my clutch via shipping to a machine shop, its just un-realistic.
About the drive shaft. Unless the rear transmission mount (bad/will include pic) would change the angle enough to alter the drive shaft's angle of operation, I've done nothing that would mess with these angles. In the transmission shifter I feel vibrations, in the transfer case shifter I feel nothing. Wouldn't a crazy drive shaft send vibrations from both the transmission and transfer case?
BRD.
Thanks on the alignment tool comment.
The start clanking around problem occured with the 1.3 motor, the vibrations while turning did not. The starter clanked around after hitting it metal to metal, but passed testing. I rebuilt the 1.3 and the starter still clanked around once I installed everything. When I got the 1.6 the issues were solved.
skyhiranger.
1. Cool, kinda on my train of thought.
3. The flywheel is from the 1.3 "samurai" motor. I would only flip it so that the shaved side was orientated to the starter. If you look you can see (it feels fresh) were the starter has chewed the ring gear. But again, its worked without problems in its current orientation.
4. They did. I remember seeing clean shinny surfaces where the pressure plate mounts to when I picked it up.
5. That thin metal plate that the starter mounts to? No is not installed because I use an adapter plate to mate the bottom end to the tranny. 1.6 - samurai tranny.
6. The motor mounts are in good working order. The transmission mount however needs replaced. All the rubber is there but its has separated some of it being pressed into the cradle of the mount. I'll snap a pic for you. I did notice the transmission not sitting in the middle of the cradle the 2nd time I took the transmission out (yesterday). It needs replaced.
And yes, NO new parts. The ONLY reason I took the transmission out in the first place was to take the transmission casing apart to silicon it.
Thanks everyone.
Parker.
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Here is the tranny mount.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3649.jpg)
skyhiranger.
I was thinking what if I just pressed the pilot bearing a little further into the flywheel? Not pressing it so far that its not in full contact with the flywheel.
Parker.
p.s. Owning 2 Siberian huskies puts hair in EVERYTHING. lol.
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nice mount. are you marking the pressure plate to where it sits on the flywheel every time so it goes back on the same place every time or is it possible that it could be going back on in a different location each time? and yes the mount could most likely be causing your vibrations.
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skyhiranger.
1. Cool, kinda on my train of thought.
3. The flywheel is from the 1.3 "samurai" motor. I would only flip it so that the shaved side was orientated to the starter. If you look you can see (it feels fresh) were the starter has chewed the ring gear. But again, its worked without problems in its current orientation.
4. They did. I remember seeing clean shinny surfaces where the pressure plate mounts to when I picked it up.
5. That thin metal plate that the starter mounts to? No is not installed because I use an adapter plate to mate the bottom end to the tranny. 1.6 - samurai tranny.
6. The motor mounts are in good working order. The transmission mount however needs replaced. All the rubber is there but its has separated some of it being pressed into the cradle of the mount. I'll snap a pic for you. I did notice the transmission not sitting in the middle of the cradle the 2nd time I took the transmission out (yesterday). It needs replaced.
And yes, NO new parts. The ONLY reason I took the transmission out in the first place was to take the transmission casing apart to silicon it.
Thanks everyone.
Parker.
3...Do you see any place on the starter where the flywheel/ring gear has rubbed on it?
5...Oh yeah, you did say you have a 1.6 block, so of course you would use the adapter plate and not the stock thin metal plate. The adapter plate is thicker than the thin metal plate. So therefore the starter would actually sit a little closer to the flywheel. So that was why I asked about the starter having any rub marks on it from the flywheel/ring.
6...Very common for the tranny mount to break in that way. A broken tranny mount can cause vibrations. I'd fix it, before I'd do anything else, and see if that happens to fix the vibration issue.
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Fuelish.
I've been meaning to bring that pressure plate issue to light. No I have not marked the pressure plate and kept parts "brethren".
I've been planing on replacing the tranny mount once its back together and I get into town. Maybe when I turn the mount lets the tranny shift around and that's why I feel the worse vibrations while turning?
Skyhiranger.
Like the pressure plate issue, I forgot to mention the starter. Here it is.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3656.jpg)
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Well I got the dremel out and trimmed the ring gear up.
Got to finding the right size socket with the alignment tool and found that the smallest size is to big. So I kept the dremel out and made something work.
Got all the clutch surfaces cleaned so here goes, wish me luck.
Things I've done to hopefully solve my problem.
1. Grind-ed the ring gear in hopes that the starter and ring gear get along.
2. Used a clutch alignment tool.
3. Replaced rear transmission mount.
Parker.
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skyhiranger.
I was thinking what if I just pressed the pilot bearing a little further into the flywheel? Not pressing it so far that its not in full contact with the flywheel.
A stock pilot bearing doesn't "hang out" of the flywheel much with one side flush with the flywheel. So to keep a stock pilot bearing in full contact with the flywheel, you don't really have much "tweak" area.
One thing to consider is that with the thicker plate between the tranny and engine the tranny input shaft doesn't sit quite as far into the center of the flywheel (pilot bearing). So you don't want to push the pilot bearing in so far so only like half the tip of the tranny input shaft is in it. Gonna be hard to say how deep you can go with the pilot bearing and still have the input shaft positioned properly in it.
I can tell you with just a regular stock metal plate between the tranny and engine that I had to bottom out the wider pilot bearing against the crank (start the pilot bearing in the flywheel, bolt the flywheel up to the engine, then bottom the bearing out against the crank), to get it deep enough so the pilot bearing stayed on the machined part of the tip of the shaft. I checked input shaft to pilot bearing engagement by putting a dab of grease on the tip of the input shaft, sliding the tranny and engine together and bolting them up, then taking it all back apart and seeing where the "engagement line" was in the grease.
So if you wanted to use a wider pilot bearing, and since you have the thicker plate between the engine and tranny, I would guess you could probably set the pilot bearing flush with the engine side of the flywheel and be about perfect. But I don't know how close the tolerances are on input shaft to pilot bearing engagement, so I can't say for sure.
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Are you able to get the input shaft into the pilot bearing/bushing by hand? I can't. I tried and tried until I my frustration got the better of me. I could only get the input shaft into the teeth of the disk by hand. I had to mate everything together using the bolts to clamp it all together. I've not had this problem with the other transmissions.
I left the input bearing alone. I'm prepared to take the b!tch out again, but would be soooo pissed at myself if it were because I put my fiddling hands on something. If I end up taking everything apart again, ill try a wider bearing.
I've got about 45 - an hour and half left of work to do until its running, all the grinding took up so much time. The trans mount should get shipped tomorrow.
I'll make a post covering the test run, more than likely tomorrow.
Parker.
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Are you able to get the input shaft into the pilot bearing/bushing by hand? I can't. I tried and tried until I my frustration got the better of me. I could only get the input shaft into the teeth of the disk by hand. I had to mate everything together using the bolts to clamp it all together. I've not had this problem with the other transmissions.
I left the input bearing alone. I'm prepared to take the b!tch out again, but would be soooo pissed at myself if it were because I put my fiddling hands on something. If I end up taking everything apart again, ill try a wider bearing.
I've got about 45 - an hour and half left of work to do until its running, all the grinding took up so much time. The trans mount should get shipped tomorrow.
I'll make a post covering the test run, more than likely tomorrow.
Parker.
If you pull the tranny up to the engine using the bolts, that is a good way to damage something.
The tranny will slide all the way up to the engine, once you have everything aligned perfectly....sometimes that takes awhile. Generally what happens is the splines of the input shaft and the fiber plate don't line up quite right. What usually helps them line up is to slide the tranny up to the engine as far as you can, then with the tranny in gear, turn the output shaft of the tranny and continue to try to slide the tranny forward. When everything gets lined up, they will slide together all the way. Sometimes it helps to physically shake the tranny while pushing it towards the engine...that can sometimes get things just right to line up and slide together.
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Oh I was shaking the #$%$ out of tranny while cursing at it. And yah, I wasn't happy using the bolts to mate. I think my major problem is how the engine sits without the tranny and my 1 jack. I bet the 1.3 or a more engineered motor mount bracket would help me out installing the tranny. Anything RRO "engineers" or "CAD designed" is shit. I use different vendors now only because of how they up-talk their stuff.
Hopefully everything found its home nicely. I don't want to say or even think it, but I may moved the bearing while pressing the two together. I unattached the two and felt what I could of the bearing. I didn't feel anything extreme.
Parker.
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Yeah you definitely have to get the engine and tranny in alignment, before you try to slide them together. Sometimes you can use a block of wood between the back of the engine and the firewall, or between the front axle and the oil pan, to change the angle of the engine so the tranny is easier to line up.
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I'll remember that for next time.
Thanks.
Parker.
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Driving the car today isn't gonna happen. My valve cover gasket was a little leaky so I bought a replacement. And the replacement doesn't fit the valve cover. Perfect! So I laied a thick bead of silicon and now I'm just waiting for a cure time of 24 hours until I put the cover on. With all my free time I got the camera out.
Here is the torn apart transmission mount installed.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3677.jpg)
And then the bead of silicon and faulty gasket.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3680.jpg)
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/rbparker/DSC_3683.jpg)
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There are 4 different ways you can orientate the VC gasket. Did you try all 4? Only 1 is right for everything to line up.
Swap it end for end and flip it over from one side to the other side.
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Yep, played with it for 10 minutes. They way I took the picture is its best fit. And actually there are only 2 ways it could be orientated because the waves in the cover do not follow a consistent pattern from side to side.
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There are still 4 ways to orientate the gasket, even though it doesn't line up properly with the waves.
I've never had a problem with the cork auto parts store gaskets lining up. The ebay rubber/cork gaskets don't fit worth a crap though.
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I've used a cork gasket that came with a rebuild kit but it came apart quite quickly. So this time I got a rubber-ish one. If you look at the pic you can see that while the waves are aligned the ends are not. When I try putting the top of the gasket to the bottom of the valve cover (reference pic) or opposite of the pic, non of the waves, tabs line up while keeping the gasket within the length of the cover. When I align the waves, the length of the cover is even worse than in the picture.
I doubt that NAPA will take back, or listen to me when I say the gasket is wrong. Gosh I love ego's at auto part stores.
-I went into Autozone looking for a cooler thermostat. So I'm shopping for a 15 dollar part and the guy behind the counter says "I usta build those things for rock crawlers, what size tires and gearing do you have?" After I told him he told me I did'nt need a cooler thermostat but I needed to re-gear the diff. Yah I know what re-gearing will do, but I didn't come in to your store to re-gear my truck, I came in for a 15 dollar part, and don't tell me about your history with car modifaction. Obviously you were really good at it and got promoted to autozone... ;)
Parker.
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I doubt that NAPA will take back, or listen to me when I say the gasket is wrong. Gosh I love ego's at auto part stores.
Take the valve cover and the gasket into NAPA and ask them to put it on. If they can't get it to fit, then they really can't argue with you that it is wrong.
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Well the vibrations and rough-ness have subsided. In-fact I didn't notice any nastiness over a 25 mile trip so that's good.
The starter still clunkers around, although no where near as much or as loud as before but its still there. I can now only hope that transmission mount solves this problem. Otherwise I'll have to wait until I can afford to buy a new starter so that I can grind away at the starters teeth. But I have hope that the new mount will center everything up a bit and do me good.
The starter also makes a high pitch whine when I cut power to the solenoid which must be from me grinding away at the ring gear.
Parker.
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I think your starter needs to be traded in. you might want to loosen your front moter mounts up on the frame and give your moter a wiggle to center your front mounts up, the pic underneath shows it sitting to one side a little. or not. also how many teeth are on your starter? I think you use the 1.6 starter but I can't remember if it has 8 teeth or 9 ? getting old i guess (sleeping pill does not help either) maybe I should post in the a.m. Lol
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I'll try loosing the mounts. If I remember correctly they were tightened with nuclear power. The rear mount (tranny) is off kilter. You can see the bolt that is off to one side of the center hole. The new mount is still in the mail.
Trade my starter in? Last I herd (Advance auto) is that a starter core is not given, at least with the 1.3 starter. Although my starter tested fine so I did not check core refunds with other part stores.
I do not know the number of teeth on the starter. The solenoid does retract and hold the gear.
Parker