ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: zuki1018 on February 07, 2012, 05:54:42 AM
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Hey folks. So this being my first rebuilt engine... I had a couple of questions. I have some smoke during start up after the truck has been parked. Once warm and driving, it 'almost' all clears up pretty much. I do know that I forgot an important step which was clocking my piston rings during assymbly. My machine shop did a 3 angle valve job, installed my new valves, springs and seals. I did everything on the bottom end.
So here is right after pulling the head and I am not sure if its the valve seals or leak down. I am going to pull the pistons and clock the rings at a minimum. I am just not sure what to do with the head. I hate to put it all back together and it be the valve seals! My back two exhaust ports are oil coated, front two are clean. Exh port 3 is by far the worst. On the intake side, I do see a tiny bit of oil coloring inside the ports. FYI the engine was not running all day just before pulling head.
My 2nd question is what do you guys do to seal the oil pumps on these engines? I have the metal gasket on right now and I have taken the pump and oil pan off 3 times and tried resealing it to find out it still leaks a bit of oil. It comes from the front dirvers side corner of the pump where it meets the block. Should I ditch the metal gasket and use black gasket maker only? TIA
(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/407131_10150545868216464_567406463_9370237_746101651_n.jpg)
Cyl 1 & 2
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/407307_10150545847711464_567406463_9370175_938207603_n.jpg)
Cyl 3 & 4
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/429664_10150545847791464_567406463_9370177_1321462476_n.jpg)
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Just wanting to clear something up,,,those pictures were taken before the machine shop work, correct?
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Just wanting to clear something up,,,those pictures were taken before the machine shop work, correct?
No after. Motor doesn't have many miles on it after rebuild. It does have a lot of idle/run time trying to fine tune megaquirt. Thanks.
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That's quite a bit of oil in the chambers for a fresh engine. Did you over lube everything when you assembled the bottom end and pistons? Clocking the rings will help some, but I would also check and make sure all the valve guide seals are installed and seated properly, and none got nicked or distorted when they were installed. You've already got the head off so it won't be that hard.
Another thing to look at is ring seating. If your running some high zoot synthetic oil during break in it can inhibit ring seating and cause blowby too. During any engine break in I only use standard pertoleum based oil. It's also not a great idea to let a newly rebuilt engine idle for long periods of time as this can glaze the cylinder walls and prevent proper ring seating as well. Moderate loading of new parts under varying rpm ( basicly just normal driving ) is how I usually break in a new engine and seat the rings.
One more thing to check, and this should be done FIRST , make sure you have the oil rings installed correctly. You could have one or more installed upside down or otherwise incorrectly.
Are you running the turbo now or just running normally asperated? Over-oiling the top end is one of the reasons I went to a scavange pump and restrictor. The turbo WILL push oil into the intake and out the exhaust if run at unrestriced engine oil presssure.
Some of that soot and smoke could also be form running rich while tuning the MS.
Hope some of this helps.
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Unless you got MS spot on tuned properly now, I would run a stock ECU to break the engine in, then worry about the MS tuning afterwards.
That is alot of oil for leaky valvestem seals unless they wernt installed. Probably as you thought, and the rings may be lined up and leaking.
I would apply a very thin coat of a sealant like hondabond Ultra or permatex ultra with the steel gasket. make sure there are no nicks or grooves or crap on the sealing surfaces. I use a rotoloc to clean them up. Sometimes what can happen is the old steel gasket made an indent in the aluminum block surfaces and the new gasket is slightly different and leaks.
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I did as I read suggestions online as far as lube. I basically gave the new valves, rocker retainers, seals and all to the machinist. Basically received the head back with everything installed. I didn't have a valve spring tool but I dont mind picking one up to check things over.
Although I did overlook clocking the rings... the new std. pistons were bought with rings installed already. If it helps at all, this motor was in the junkyard from an overheat. I had the head, block, and crank all surfaced and ordered and installed (myself) appropriate sized crank bearings. Water and oil pump new, new timing everything replaced, etc etc.
My reasoning for installing MS was I already had it, and also in lieu of having a tracker harness rewired for $300. Plus double re-wiring everything. I now have MS squared away and running great. I definitely fouled a plug or two in the early tuning stages of MS. I decided to hold off on the turbo install until I resolve my previous mistakes. I have plenty of prep to do for that anyhow.
As for the oil pump, the body leaked from day one. I took everything off and reinstalled to be sure I didn't overlook something. Still leaked. Went back in and added some gasket maker to both sides of the metal oil pump seal. Still leaked. This is where I am wondering if I should skip the metal gasket now. At this point in time I am going to pull the block anyway. Its a pita to clean sealing surfaces laying on your back. Plus I have to resolve the rings anyway.
So in short, should I replace the rings and do a proper break-in? ..or just clock them properly? I will plan to check the valve guide seals but I dont have much experience here. I really app riceate the advice.
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I was cleaning up the head in my parts sink and possibly found something helpful... just not sure what it translates into.
I had the head on its side with exhaust up and filled up the ports with degreaser. After just a few seconds#4 had almost all leaked out through the valves. #3 was half full and 2 and 1 were still full. Maybe not the most scientific method but a leak is a leak.
Seems I may need some specific spring compressor tool or adapter for the 16v? I did spring for the stainless exhaust valves if there is any correlation there. I don't think I replaced the springs that I can recall. How possible is a couple of weak springs?
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No after. Motor doesn't have many miles on it after rebuild. It does have a lot of idle/run time trying to fine tune megaquirt. Thanks.
You really don't want a lot of idle time on a freshly rebuilt engine, you'll have problems with bores glazing (or getting the rings to bed), depending on which angle you're looking at it from.
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You definitely have one or more valves not seating correctly. If the shop did the 3 angle valve job on the head and maybe missed grinding a couple of valves to match that could cause that leaking. Or a bent stem, or valve head. With the head off and cam removed compressing the springs can be done with any number of home made tools. Basicly anything that will fit over the valve stem and give you a bit of leverage will compress the springs enough for you to get the keepers off. The springs are very light and easy to compress. Just watch out for flying keepers!
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The leaking valves could also be kept from closing fully due to carbonized oil on the valve seats, they do look very nasty for such low time.
Expensive lesson to learn about tuning.
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If the oil issue is on start up it would seem that it is mainly a head issue with the oil leaking down the valve guilds and valves through the stem seals .
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This was a used engine that you put in, did you have the bores honed? you have used standard sized rings and pistons, how much wear was there on the bores? Did you gap the rings before you put them in?
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It seems mostly a carbon issue on the head side. After soaking for 2 days and some cleaning, the same test filling the ports checks out good now. I still plan on pulling the block and re checking things over on the bottom end since I am this far.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
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I had the head on its side with exhaust up and filled up the ports with degreaser. After just a few seconds#4 had almost all leaked out through the valves. #3 was half full and 2 and 1 were still full. Maybe not the most scientific method but a leak is a leak.
IMO, that is actually a very good way to check to see if the valves are seating/sealing properly. I have used brake cleaner before and filled up the ports, to see if there was any seepage/leaks through the valve and seat area.
As far as the metal gasket for the oil pump goes....that is what they use from the factory, so there shouldn't be an issue. Does the gasket have a round or oval hole in the edge of it? From what I recall, the gasket should have an oval hole, even though the oil pump and block holes are round.
Also, if you are using a bit of sealer, to help seal the pump....did you wait a day or two, for the sealer to cure, before you dumped oil in and ran the engine? Generally, it is best to wait for the sealer to cure, before exposing it to oil. I have used just sealer alone (no gasket at all), on the oil pump and not had any leaking issues (I did wait a day or two for the sealer to cure, before adding oil).
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Does the gasket have a round or oval hole in the edge of it? From what I recall, the gasket should have an oval hole, even though the oil pump and block holes are round.
Its oval.
I finished pulling the block tonight. I found the worst piston ring gaps to be about 1" apart from one another. That piston was not the worst of the 4 which had oil in the exhaust chamber. Seeing how 1 and 2 were waaaay cleaner than 3 and 4, I am chalking it up to "dialing in Megasquirt". And actually there was a period there were I didn't have the wide band 02 sensor to tune with which probably made it worse. Add in a few fouled plugs and the way the injectors are "banked" and oil in #3 and #4 makes sense.
I really had rather not take out the valves at this point... they seem to be sealing pretty good. I rotated the cam and cleaned the sealing surfaces pretty well. The chambers are not sparkling clean on 3 and 4 and there is no perfect tool in my shed to get deep down to clean the baked oil with.
I have been thinking it may be a good idea to drop the head off for a good deep cleaning (as opposed to pulling the valves myself). I am not too confident with some of the left over residue and i DEFINITELY had rather not do this again.
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I would suggest that you also consider running a glaze breaker thru the piston bores as I can just about gaurantee they were fuel washed and polished nice and smooth now and the rings cant seal the bores.
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I agree, the cylinders where you fouled the plugs are gauranteed glazed. Those bores will need to be honed again! You said the ring gap is 1"?? So you took the rings off and slid them down the cylinder with the piston? Then measured the gap? 9 x out of ten an overheated engine will need bored for best ring seal. I would do a light hone and measure your ring end gap for each cylinder and the reassemble. The one cylinder looked to have a lot of oil in it! Good luck, I hope it runs good for you! Which megasquirt is it? I'm looking at the pnp.
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I agree, the cylinders where you fouled the plugs are gauranteed glazed. Those bores will need to be honed again! You said the ring gap is 1"?? So you took the rings off and slid them down the cylinder with the piston? Then measured the gap? 9 x out of ten an overheated engine will need bored for best ring seal. I would do a light hone and measure your ring end gap for each cylinder and the reassemble. The one cylinder looked to have a lot of oil in it! Good luck, I hope it runs good for you! Which megasquirt is it? I'm looking at the pnp.
The rings were already installed on the new std bore pistons. Only oversize anything was the crank bearings. I went one size over stock and gave them all the parts to match up. I think they took .015 off the head to true it up. Its been a while now so its tough to remember all the details. This "overheat" was pre- rebuild. Everything has been cleaned up or replaced since I pulled the long block from the scrapper. Thx.
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You can not take rings and simply run them, they need to be matched to each specific bore and could care less which piston they are matched with. You remove the rings from the piston and insert them one at a time down in the bore squarely(use the piston to square it up) and then measure the end gap and file the ends to obtain the proper clearance, rings come oversized for this reason, they are not plug and play. best to spend the coin on a small rotary ring gap file/grinder, they are not that expennsive. Follow the FSM specs for the clearances.
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please tell me your not going to tell him about the tty head bolts too, I think bad news on the bottom end is enough! I hope this is not his first rebuild job.
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please tell me your not going to tell him about the tty head bolts too, I think bad news on the bottom end is enough! I hope this is not his first rebuild job.
eh.... live and learn as they say right? Its good to have people around to ask questions... even if you dont know every right question to ask!
I have a few tools to add to my arsenal. Thanks for the heads up. I hope "3rd times the charm" is not the case this go around heh!
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Okay so my memory just did not serve me very well.
I ordered .020 pistons OE-spec replacement (DNJ) and appropriate ring set (DNJ).
Dropped those off with the bottom end.
Machine shop did the clean-up and put everything back together minus installing the crank and pistons. They are the ones that fitted the rings for me. On the above posts.. I just remembered the rings were installed when I received them... forgot it was from the machine shop though.
If I double check the gaps at this point, do I still follow the FSM listing for std. pistons or from DNJ/Rock?
Edit: Gaps are stamped on the rings from Manuf. Also machine shop set the gaps appropriately. Thx again.
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I think he meant the ring clocking of the gaps was 1" apart. An end gap of 1" would probably not seal too well.
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About your oil pump.
I tried using the metal gasket but it just leaked time after time. After trying 3 different types of silicon many times I now only use "Ultra Grey" and have only found it at O'rileys. You want a silicon designed for aluminum to aluminum, high torque, and high heat. Basically a transmission silicon. Its been the only way I've been able to seal my oil pump and transmission for that matter.
The oil pan had also been a bit of a problem for me. The bolts kept getting loose and oil kept seeping from the silicon. I've found that after the first 2 or 3 miles the bolts need more attention, but only tightening to roughly 12lbs. I used "Form a gasket 2" the tacky version, for the oil pan. It took a good 5 days of 30-40 degree temperatures to cure, compared to to Ultra Grey which takes 24-28 hours. I haven't had a leak or seep of oil on my garage floor, FINALLY!
If I were in your shoes I would Ultra Grey the rear seal housing, even if its not seeping or leaking. I have found nirvana with this stuff on these aluminum motors. Even works with coolant.
Hope this helps, good luck with the build, and enjoy the time your getting to spend with your motor. Put good in, get good out.
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Also, simply wiping a surface does not remove all the oil, a solvent and mechanical manipulation of the sealing surfaces is the only way to guarantee that the sealant adheres to all surfaces. Any residual oil in the pores of the metal will expand more than the sealant and the aluminum, forcing it's way between the metal and sealant and eventually creating leaks.