ZUKIWORLD Online | Suzuki 4x4 Editorial and Forum
ZUKIWORLD Discussion Forum => Technical Discussion - Performance / Modify => Topic started by: flanny on February 07, 2012, 05:16:27 PM
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hello everyone i am new to this site and i just purchased my first sammi!!! i bougt one with a ford 5.0 with the tranny, but the transfer case and axles are all stock. i was wondering what your thought are on the drive train? can i get by with stock axle housing and just uprgrade my axles or do i have too much hp& tourque. btw it has 33x12.50 maxxis mudders right now with a homemade 6" lift (the lift will def be placed once i get everything running good)
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It depends on how you plan on driving it. If you drive it like a fool, then you will break stuff. If you use some common sense, then you will more that likely be ok (at least have a better chance than the alternative).
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mainly mud riding, just wanted some input on ways i could beef it up with stock axle housings?
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stock as in Toyota mini truck.
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You will soon find out that you have not got enough axle in it. Not even close.
Just the added weight allone in the front is a problem. Plus with 4 or 5 times stock HP and torque. Your done.
Don't waist money on the Zuke axles.
My best advice is.---- Here it comes.--- NOT TOYOTAS....Let the hate mail begin....
Find a set of 71 to 75 stock CJ5 axles. Same width, same bolt pattern, designed to handle the HP and torque, frame width is very close, every gear set known to man. Stock high steer, same geometry.
I could go on but I think you get the idea.
Look on Craig's list . Easy to find....I recommend converting the fronts to disk brake, but other than that it's a no brainier of a conversion....Boxcar...
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CJ5 axles? I don't think that it would be worth the work to swap in a Dana 30 in the front. The Dana 44 in the back would be ok. Some Toyota FJ axles would probably be a better swap if your looking for something close to stock width that you can find in a junk yard.
Toyota mini-truck is the easiest and has the most parts available for the swap. I have found that when it comes to doing an axle swap find a set of axles, then plan on spending an additional $1000 to perform the swap. Yes, it can be done cheaper, but if you have a k set aside then you can cover the little things you always end up needing. Like new bearings, rebuild kit, custom drivelines, etc.
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I looked at upgrading to Toy axles and at first the price seems reasonable, untill you add in new wheels and all the rest of the little things, and then you have to scrounge around for the axles and around these parts Toy axles are hard to come by even in the salvage yards without having to hand over your first male child as well the premium prices....LOL I can take a drive and see at least a dozen or so heeps in various stages of disrepair behind barns and in fields, but no Toys or zuk's to be seen.
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Are you kidding????
The D-30 will Hold up fine to the weight, torque , and hp , that the PO is talking about.
It was designed into it.
Unlike the Yota , the cj was delivered with a v8 .
In a Zuke with a 5.0 (305) and 33s , you will be on the low side of the design parameters of the stock 74 CJ5 5.0 (304) - 29s..
The D-30 is a much maligned (undeserving so ) axle. Millions were produced and millions are still on the road .
In rigs with much higher requirements than the PO requires.
The list is long and venerable. CJ's, Wagoneers, Some with the legendairy 401 monster behind them.
(http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h423/Boxcar2/002-3.jpg)
Mine...
The Scout. Bronco, Jeep J-Trucks, ETC .ETC. ETC.
Due to this reason allone . Parts are readily available for this axle.
And the 44 ???? Can you say VIPER v10????? Vett. Jeep, Ford, Chevy, Isuzu, Cornbinder, ETC. ETC.
While the Toyota is a good axle . Especially the early FJ s. It is a much more costly conversion. And doesn't have the track record of the Dana units....JMHO....Boxcar...
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I agree with Boxcar.... CJ 5-7 axles were produced to handle a V8 and you have upgrade options available. They are similar to the OEM Zuk setup in design. While I was purchasing these I would by the CJ springs as well and do the spring over using them. These would be a pretty tuff set up if you slide a locker to compliment them.
I don't believe the stock Toy axles will withstand the HP transfer the 5.0 is going to place to them. If they do then the yoke / u-joints will puke.
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Good point. Tux.
The PO will end up with as close to a direct swap as is available in a non Zuke axle.
Not to mention , Many of the early 70 s 44 and 30 axles came factory equip ed with Detroit's.
We have been ignoring the T case though...I'm a little worried about that.
Make sure it's not hung on a stock mounting system to start.
I think if I ever decided to do a v8 swap into a Zuke I'd probably spend the $$$$$ on a D-300 with a Novac divorced converter. Just to be safe.....Again . JMHO...
...Boxcar...
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Axle swap needed, to save on wheels stay with scout, bronco, jeep 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern .A strong V6 will eat yota axles. >:D
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There is a reason why you rebuild a Dana 30 with full Dana 44 outers and chromoly axles. It's not because the Dana 30 is a bulletproof axle. :)
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Drone. You've been reading to many magazines.
I don't ever replace the HIGH STEER 30 outers with 44 knuckles. Why would you???
As to chrome molly axles, Yea I run them in everything , even my D-60s. again what,s your point??????
The 30 in my 475 hp 500 fpt 401 powered Wagoneer got new Chrome axles last year . Its a 73. Originally a 375 hp 360. That's 33 years on the origanal axles at over 300 hp, in a 5000lb rig . While nothing is bullet proof . THANK GOD IT WAS A D-30, AND NOT A YOTA AXLE... I replaced with chrome because at rebuild I allways do.
Look , if the PO was running 35" tires or larger I'd advise a Ford D-44 High pinion front. But he's not. So why spend the extra $$$$ shortening an axle and converting to pas. drop, as well as high steer...Boxcar...
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Actually, I run with a buddy who wheels Jeeps. And he has had the u-joint blow up with the massive hp of the stock 6cyl and giant 33" tires. He also destroyed several with the 4cyl. So it really depends on what sort of wheeling you do. But he likes the larger u-joints.
A Toyota setup is going to hold up just as well as a 30. You get the birfields, a third member, and the ring gear just a bit larger. I like the birfields more then then the u-joint setups for front axles and the third member makes it a lot easier to setup then screwing around with shims. And both a 30 and Toy are going to cost you around 600 to get chromos in the front end so your not really saving anything.
As for Dana 44's, weigh to much. But if your adding an additional 200 pounds of motor up front that probably isn't a concern. :D
When it comes down to it though, if your trying to save as much money as possible on axles your going to have to keep your options open and hunt through some junk yards. Both will serve you well.
As for V6's eating up Toyota axles, if your destroying Bobby Longs with a V6 your doing something really wrong or really right with that V6. :D
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Most people around these parts wheel heeps. Those 6bangers dont make top end whp #'s that much is obvious, but they make a bunch of torque(that is what breaks parts), get into the meat of the torque band and bind a tire up and ping those axles will snap like pretzels.
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Wow...Well thought out answer...Really..
An Open knuckle front end will eat debris. That goes without saying...I must admit that I run non stock Heavy duty U joints in all my axles.
and have blown a few over the years. Even the outers . But only in a bind .
Maintenance is KING..........If you ignore any part it will fail.
I'm sorry. While your statement that a Yota will hold up as well as a D-30 is conjecture.
Unlike the Yota. The 30 was designed to handle the HP and TORQUE the PO requires...Has the track record to prove it. Is less than half the cost, is the correct width, same steering geometry, many more gearing options, tighter steering radios than a barfield, and if unsprung weight is an issue , don't modify your Zuke at all.
As to how and where we wheel . I live in Oregon , Do I really need to explain??? We are lucky enough to have it all..
I don't want to seem like a Yota hater here.
I own a 78 FJ 40, as well as several Jeeps and a Zuke . And will defend The FJ to the wall.
It's my favorite ride. It's also the most expensive rig I own, (next to a Patrole I have been restoring for about 10 years) and maintain....Parts are extremely expensive , And sometimes hard to find...
Jeep parts on the otherhand...NOT SO MUCH...
By the way I have friends and clients that break things to...That's how I've staid in business for 35 years......
I try never to give bad advice . Or advise just based solely on what I do, or have done to my rigs...
Rather on the needs of the PO in question..based on cost , durability, ease of installation , serviceability, fit. And then experience.
But never ever based on conjecture. Gotta go to work now. Been fun......Boxcar...
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Nice sarcasm. I also like how you automatically assume that nobody I knows how to take care of their rigs, all we drive is junk heaps and do nothing but mall crawl.
Well, I might as well look up some base stats:
Dana 30:
Ring gear diameter = 7.25"
Axle shaft diameter = 1.16
Inner Spline = 27 spline
Toyota:
Ring gear diameter = 7.5" or 8"
Axle shaft diameter = 1.24"
Inner Spline = 31
Smaller axle shafts, ring gears and spline count are all hallmarks of a stronger overall axle. I concede the point to you.
Moot point anyway, he is looking to stick with the 5.5 to keep his wheels. Either axle with upgrades should be able to survive a 5.0 and 33" tires.
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Never occurred to you to check the Quality of the steel that these axles are made from??????
1960 s and 70 s American made steel vs.. 1980 s Japanese recycled steel???
Check the torsional loads designed in to either axle in question...
If axle size and ring gear diameter are that important to you, I have several AMC 20 s in the scrap bin behind my shop you can have for the scrap value...........
more stats for your vault:
YOTA AXLE--- 55-58" wide
centred diff. (rear)
6 lug
low steer.
Jeep narrow track D-44 (rear)
50" wide.
1970 and earlyer - same offset as Zuke
5 on 5.5 lug.
D-30
50" wide
Same offset as Zuke
5 on 5.5 lug
High steer.
Steering joints are commonly overlooked by many people until they fail....
Never called you a " mall crawler..or a dumb A.. Don't get so upset...
Look Drone . I'm not here to beat up on your ideas . But give advice and learn at the same time.
Yota axles are good solid units. Just not the best conversion parts for the Zuke.
If your running Yota s...Cool. I'm sure you love your rig....And I'm sure it works well....
The cj conversion can be done at less than half the cost / same or better results / Leaving the PO with more $$$$ to spend on the Zuke on another part of the rig...Nuff sed...Boxcar...
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Actually, I run a Sammy axle with Double Toughs from Trail Tough. With 950cc of power pushing out a mighty 45hp of raging stock 1984 hp I didn't really have to worry about breaking things to much. :D Building a IFS Tracker currently, it will be interesting to see how it works out.
But if I was starting from ground zero I would have gone with Toyota to start with, one of the down sides of building a rig one piece at a time without a lot of background first. A lot more of the same parts front and rear and a lot of aftermarket support.
As for the torsional loads, that is actually a pain in the ass to find. I found around 5000 for the stock Toyo shafts from some Bobby Long testing, but couldn't track down anything for the 30.
I do agree with you about the price though, a Dana 30 is going to be a world cheaper then a Toyo setup and a lot easier to find. A bit more work to get going since you don't have the aftermarket support but it should work fine. And as you pointed out, the 5x5.5 bolt pattern saves some more cost.
There was a fun thread where someone put a Dana 30 under a Tracker, would have to dig to find it.
You could have some real fun with your front axle. Check out this one from an old Zukiworld article:
These are all parts that pale in comparison to the fully custom scratch built front axle that uses the Sidekick rear 3rd member, and ARB with custom 27 spline sidegears which couple to Superior Axle Dana 30 Cromoly Axles. Knuckles are of Dana 30/44 design with adapters to use the Sidekick Disk brakes. Hi-steer with custom Drag link and tie-rod. Spindles are Dana 30, Warn Premium Hubs get the power to the ground.
http://zukiworld.com/month_110103/feature_saskick_wmovies.htm (http://zukiworld.com/month_110103/feature_saskick_wmovies.htm)
Kind of goes away from simple swap though. :D
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For after market support on the Dana's you must think Jeep. Try Quadratech , 4WD Hardware, 4x4 Parts, Novac, Jegs, Advance, BJ's,, Summit . ETC....
Wow. Must of taken a year to figure that drive set up out ...Cool though...
Back to aftermarket support:
The Dana 30 design was first used in the 1930 s and is still used today..Plenty of tech support and parts out there...
Never done the Track Kick thing. I should , There cool , Just to many toys now. Maybe Ill get lucky and a client will want one built.....START THE LIRNING CURV ALL OVER AGAIN.... Fun...Boxcar...
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well i went out this weekend for the first test run. I gave her hell, i was trying to break some axles. but she came back in one piece.. Yes anyone can break axles if you really dont know how to drive. but if you use common sense and dont let your tires hop then you got a better chance.
I know i have all the tourque and hp i need, but all i did was ease up to a mud hole drop her in 4low, 3 rd gear and let her eat.. now let her catch on a hard root or rock and slam the throttle then yeah its gonna snap
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I was reading your other thread. Sounds like you had some fun........
As I posted earlyer: Didn't think the stock T case mount would last.
There are several relay well designed new mounts out there for reasonable $$$$
I'd check into one...
The TSL's are a great choice. All that new bight is going to transfer torque to your running gear...Be carefull...
Glad you had fun with it...Boxcar....
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thanx boxcar. yeah im just looking to have fun right now untill i get a few rides under her. I looked at all the transfer case mounts and they all look good,but for that price i can make my own.. we own a full pump facility which gives me the previlage to machine shop and welding. as we speak my welders are adding 2 new points to anchor to the t case, also all the brackets are being removed and 1/4" thick angle iron is being installed to replace them. should help significatly. since my t case had to be moved back for the motor and tranny upgrade the guys that welded the new brackets did a horrible job, all the welds were 3/4 broken( i dont trust any of their welds not). Which is why all my motor mout welds are being grounded off and welded properly just to be safe...
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Gotcha.
Got to love the bird shit some think are welds....Boxcar...
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My favorite design so far is the snatch from Zor. Mainly because he moves the mounts away from the stock position, making it a lot easier to drop the transfer case. If I was building one I would go with a similar design.
It's never fun to go through and fix a mess somebody else made. Good luck!
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i made 3 brackets that bolt on to the t case in 6 points, then hooks to both frames... shes definatly not moving now
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Not exactly true.... I had one of those hopped up 78 258 6 cylinder CJ7's with a cam dynamics cam, head milled / polished, offenhauser 4 barrel intake, Holley 650, with split manifold headers. Mine had flipped axles (that is what the called a Spoa then) with a 3" Rancho lift and 15x38.5 Ground Hawgs.
I never had any troubles with the axles nor did anyone I ever met. However on several occasions the wheel differential cross shaft would break and leave a person stranded without any movement.
I also broke the ears of of a few yokes and crapped out some u-joints. The later two died from grunt and flex from the driveshaft. Once I put saddle straps on the shafts to help eliminate some of the flex I had no more problems...